Half-Orc Thief Acrobat Advice/Criticism

[artistx]

Forums were down when I created this guy.. I have alot of nice named Quarterstaffs and one "metalline pure good Icy Burst festival" one.. (ever build a character just cus you had gear you wanted to use?)

My idea was to take all the Half-orc two-handed weapon goodness and combine it with Thief-Acrobat 1+2 and take 6 Fighter lvls for Kensei1 selecting staffs as the Specified Weapon and see how things work out... I'm still debating on if I should take a monk lvl for the stances....

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Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Orc Male
(6 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 376
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 20
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    28
Dexterity            15                    20
Constitution         15                    17
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Fury I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 10 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III

Any feedback would be appreciated... first time planning a character out from scratch... currently at lvl 6 in game... is taking 1 or 2 monk lvls worth it? also is there anything that doesn't stack?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Stances are fun, but I don't think they're worth losing level 13 of Rogue over.

And I'd put more points into Cha because I don't like having a negative against my UMD/etc.

[karl_k0ch]

Why such a high Dex when you go THF?
I'd probably drop it to 14 or less. I see the benefit, but it's not an urgent need to squeeze out every last point of Dex for the SA damage.

Power Critical? Really? There must be something better. Greater Cleave, for example.

Something is wrong here:

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Note that you can add some more health to the number given by the planner:
+6 Con item (+60)
GFL item (+30)
Minos/etc (+20)
GS HP item (+45)
Draconic Hp (+10)

For a total of +165 from what the Planner is saying. You don't need 3 Toughness feats to get to a reasonable amount of HP.

Going 13 Rogue is a sweet spot. I'm not sure how 6Fgt/1 Mnk compares to 6Mnk/1Fg, or even 7 Mnk.

[Diyon]

6 fighter/1 monk version is great if you're going super strength/tactics acrobat. Also one of the best setups for dealing nonSA dps.

As to 3 toughness? Meh, that's what my acrobat with the same lvl split has.


Suggestions:

Don't take Power critical. Its pretty worthless as a feat, and you'll already be getting bonuses to confirm crits from kensai prereq's. IMO, take great cleave instead.

Also, you may want to consider dropping one toughness for improved sunder (something I'm considering doing when I TR to rebuild mine into a half orc). The drop in fortification in end game you can get from it can be handy, and ups your stunning blow DCs.

Speaking of which, fitting in stunning blow isn't bad if you can gear yourself out for >40 STR.

[neverconsentual]

stances are fun but wind stance doesnt stack wit haste, and when you have the time sensing goggles from devil assualt (sorta easy to get on thursdays you can trade it through vip bank account) it doesnt feel worth it. Im going to try a pure rogue for the sneak attack damage and attack, and i could see running it over a rogue/fighter/monk

[Diyon]

stances are fun but wind stance doesnt stack wit haste, and when you have the time sensing goggles from devil assualt (sorta easy to get on thursdays you can trade it through vip bank account) it doesnt feel worth it. Im going to try a pure rogue for the sneak attack damage and attack, and i could see running it over a rogue/fighter/monk

Well if you go tactics, fire stance gives +1 to tactics (str) and extra str. You also get an extra feat that fighter 7 wouldn't give.

While a pure rogue does have superior SA (by a good bit), the coin starts to flip back towards the splash build with high fort raid bosses and crit/SA-immune targets.

[Vengenance]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=321805

Check out the linked build it has some pretty good numbers for a Kensei/Acrobat. I made this some time ago and have since TR'd him again, but if I were doing it again I would drop CE & Improved Trip and go with Improved Sunder instead.

[Vengenance]

stances are fun but wind stance doesnt stack wit haste, and when you have the time sensing goggles from devil assualt (sorta easy to get on thursdays you can trade it through vip bank account) it doesnt feel worth it. Im going to try a pure rogue for the sneak attack damage and attack, and i could see running it over a rogue/fighter/monk

In Fire Stance that is a permanent +2 Strength, which amounts to +1 DC and +1 Attack/Damage. While wearing the Jitz Teka bracers that also equates to 20% healing amp not to mention the 1D6 Elemental strikes you can utilize through your q-staff.

[Jaid314]

there's also fringe benefits like being able to boost different stats when you get to a rune that requires it, being able to gain a bit of blocking DR, being able to boost your saves that little bit extra for traps, etc.

and also, the air stance doublestrike still works even if you're hasted.

[Ayseifn]

Power critical is pretty bad, you could take hamstring which I hear is pretty good or a tactics feat instead. Or another toughness.

[unbongwah]

stances are fun but wind stance doesnt stack wit haste

Wind stance also provides double-strike.

[Diyon]

there's also fringe benefits like being able to boost different stats when you get to a rune that requires it, being able to gain a bit of blocking DR, being able to boost your saves that little bit extra for traps, etc.

and also, the air stance doublestrike still works even if you're hasted.

I don't find myself using water or air much, but I definitely use earth stance in certain situations. Either: A) I don't need dps on something (hound tank) so the extra hp is nice; B) One way or another, I've ended up with aggro of something big that I don't want aggro on (ie. epic devastator, Suulo, Horoth, etc); C) For so inexplicable reason, I'm the tank; D) In a high incoming damage fight after having taken more death penalties than I'm comfortable with; E) Things have gone so utterly pear shaped I need every bit of HP I can get to do my part to save it.

[Vengenance]

You will do better DPS with the TWF line, even as an Acrobat, even as a half-orc. With that said, if you are set on using quarterstaves, there are really no builds where you won't be losing big chunks of DPS, so you sort of have that going for you. I advise you to consider the quarterstaves a sunk cost and go with better weapons.

I didn't find the damage numbers too bad on my staff wielding acrobat. My base damage was about 60 + 60 SA damage + glancing blow damage. 120 per hit is very good against mobs vulnerable to SA but not so high that you constantly grab aggro away from the main tank.

[Kinerd]

You will do better DPS with the TWF line, even as an Acrobat, even as a half-orc. With that said, if you are set on using quarterstaves, there are really no builds where you won't be losing big chunks of DPS, so you sort of have that going for you. I advise you to consider the quarterstaves a sunk cost and go with better weapons.

[Diyon]

You will do better DPS with the TWF line, even as an Acrobat, even as a half-orc. With that said, if you are set on using quarterstaves, there are really no builds where you won't be losing big chunks of DPS, so you sort of have that going for you. I advise you to consider the quarterstaves a sunk cost and go with better weapons.

Okay so, I hear this sort of thing a lot, and although I believe it, I want to see some of the numbers behind this to get an idea of exactly how much of a difference we're talking. So I've decided to crunch some numbers. 13 rogue/6 fighter/1 monk. THF staff acrobat vs TWF khopesh acrobat.

Staff:

STR: 50
Damage bonus: 62 (30 str bonus + 14 PA + 2 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 Half Orc + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+26 (saying 6 from a 22 dex, could be higher)
Seeker: +10 (6+4 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Souleater
Average Damage per hit without glancing blows: 142.11 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 113.3 swings per minute (Haste spell plus acrobat bonuses)
DPS without glancing blows: 268.35105
Glancing Blow: 50% base damage; 13% chance for special weapon effects; Occurs on 50% of attacks, using a 95% success rate. ***Note***I did not add in the Kensai Weapon Mastery bonus to glancing blows as I could not find the numbers for it***
Average Damage on a glancing blow: 32.775 for base, 0.8645 for special weapon effects; total 33.6395
Glancing blows per minute: 56.65
DPS for glancing blows: 31.761294583333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 300.11234458333333333333333333333 (not using any action boosts, monk strikes, etc)


-------

Khopesh:

STR: 48
Damage bonus: 41 (20 str bonus + 7 PA + 2 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+20
Seeker: +8 (6 + 2 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Chaosblades
Average Damage per hit without offhand procs: 136.32 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 102.2 swings per minute (Haste spell)
DPS without offhand procs: 232.1984
Offhand Procs: 80%
Average Offhand Damage per hit: 122.42
Offhand attacks per minute: 81.76
Offhand DPS: 166.81765333333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 399.01605333333333333333333333333 (not using any action boosts, monk strikes, etc)

Khopesh wins, provided, I did use a particularly hard to obtain khopesh in the calcs and assumed the damage is effective. Staff is at 75.213100344266850550106522029989% dps of Khopesh

Now for another look, lets take those same setups, and pit them against a 80% fort target and say DR is taken care of. 80% -> 70% opportunist, and lets be generous and -> 55% improved sunder

Staff:

STR: 50
Damage bonus: 62 (30 str bonus + 14 PA + 2 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 Half Orc + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+26 (saying 6 from a 22 dex, could be higher)
Seeker: +10 (6+4 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Souleater
Average Damage per hit without glancing blows: 104.85 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 113.3 swings per minute (Haste spell plus acrobat bonuses)
DPS without glancing blows: 197.99175
Glancing Blow: 50% base damage; 13% chance for special weapon effects; Occurs on 50% of attacks, using a 95% success rate. ***Note***I did not add in the Kensai Weapon Mastery bonus to glancing blows as I could not find the numbers for it***
Average Damage on a glancing blow: 32.775 for base, 0.8645 for special weapon effects; total 33.6395
Glancing blows per minute: 56.65
DPS for glancing blows: 31.761294583333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 229.75304458333333333333333333333 (not using any action boosts, monk strikes, etc)

--------


Khopesh:

STR: 48
Damage bonus: 41 (20 str bonus + 7 PA + 2 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+20
Seeker: +8 (6 + 2 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Chaosblades
Average Damage per hit without offhand procs: 98.32 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 102.2 swings per minute (Haste spell)
DPS without offhand procs: 167.47173333333333333333333333333
Offhand Procs: 80%
Average Offhand Damage per hit: 86.68
Offhand attacks per minute: 81.76
Offhand DPS: 118.11594666666666666666666666667

Total DPS: 285.58767999999999999999999999997 (not using any action boosts, monk strikes, etc)


Gap closes some, staff is now at 80.449214259989553237497266455395% Khopesh


Now for a 100% fort monster that is flat out immune to sneak attack. So with our fort reducers, 75% fort.


Staff:

STR: 50
Damage bonus: 62 (30 str bonus + 14 PA + 2 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 Half Orc + 4 gear +6 weapon)
Seeker: +10 (6+4 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Souleater
Average Damage per hit without glancing blows: 78.95 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 113.3 swings per minute (Haste spell plus acrobat bonuses)
DPS without glancing blows: 149.08391666666666666666666666667
Glancing Blow: 50% base damage; 13% chance for special weapon effects; Occurs on 50% of attacks, using a 95% success rate. ***Note***I did not add in the Kensai Weapon Mastery bonus to glancing blows as I could not find the numbers for it***
Average Damage on a glancing blow: 32.775 for base, 0.8645 for special weapon effects; total 33.6395
Glancing blows per minute: 56.65
DPS for glancing blows: 31.761294583333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 180.84521125 (not using any action boosts, monk strikes, etc)

--------


Khopesh:

STR: 48
Damage bonus: 41 (20 str bonus + 7 PA + 2 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 gear +6 weapon)
Seeker: +8 (6 + 2 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Chaosblades
Average Damage per hit without offhand procs: 73.62 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 102.2 swings per minute (Haste spell)
DPS without offhand procs: 125.3994
Offhand Procs: 80%
Average Offhand Damage per hit: 67.09
Offhand attacks per minute: 81.76
Offhand DPS: 91.421306666666666666666666666667

Total DPS: 216.82070666666666666666666666667 (not using any action boosts, monk strikes, etc)

Staff is now at 83.40772153649777484352201785404% of khopesh.




Okay so all of my scenarios landed the khopesh TWF beating staff THF. Still makes me a little sad that a khopesh acrobat will deal more damage than a staff acrobat. Actually, for me to be happy, it doesn't have to even beat out damage, staff just needs SOMETHING useful in acrobat that would make people say "Well, it is less damage (examples of how much above), but if I go staff, I get to use/be able to do THAT!"

Also something to note, I don't know if using haste boost IV and the way weapon style attack speeds scale differently would make the staff pull out on top in a haste boost window. Right now, I'm too tired to do more, but the attack speeds change to 140.1 attacks per minute for staff, and 133.3 per minute for TWF. Glancing blow amounts per minute and offhand procs per minute will need to be adjusted accordingly.

[Jaid314]

try throwing in some doublestrike to the mix. QS should benefit more from doublestrike than TWF, because doublestrike only applies to main hand.

also you forgot to take off-hand strength bonus down to 10.

also the kensei bonus damage is higher for two-handed weapons.

glancing blows also apply to 3/4 of your attacks if you have GTHF as i understand it.

that should help close the gap somewhat, although i suspect it will still favor the khopesh.

oh, and also... souleater is kinda not the most amazing damage-dealer when it comes to QS. i suggest you try a rahl's might (force burst type with a force ritual - remember the d10 base and especially the x3 critical) or maybe even a tier 3 GS (i think tier 3 alchemical is probably beyond what is reasonable to assume, but then if you're comparing vs dual epic chaosblades... it might not be so crazy)

of course, as far as "cool things you can do with quarterstaves but not with khopesh", well... you can level drain stuff. you get a pretty danged cool animation. you can trap the soul without having to invest in a pair of vacuum II khopeshes. you get an extra feat, comparatively speaking, as well. i think THF styles might also have a bit more reach. they will likely also deal more damage when not breaking DR (which in some cases is unbreakable).

[Diyon]

try throwing in some doublestrike to the mix. QS should benefit more from doublestrike than TWF, because doublestrike only applies to main hand.

also you forgot to take off-hand strength bonus down to 10.

also the kensei bonus damage is higher for two-handed weapons.

glancing blows also apply to 3/4 of your attacks if you have GTHF as i understand it.

that should help close the gap somewhat, although i suspect it will still favor the khopesh.

oh, and also... souleater is kinda not the most amazing damage-dealer when it comes to QS. i suggest you try a rahl's might (force burst type with a force ritual - remember the d10 base and especially the x3 critical) or maybe even a tier 3 GS (i think tier 3 alchemical is probably beyond what is reasonable to assume, but then if you're comparing vs dual epic chaosblades... it might not be so crazy)

of course, as far as "cool things you can do with quarterstaves but not with khopesh", well... you can level drain stuff. you get a pretty danged cool animation. you can trap the soul without having to invest in a pair of vacuum II khopeshes. you get an extra feat, comparatively speaking, as well. i think THF styles might also have a bit more reach. they will likely also deal more damage when not breaking DR (which in some cases is unbreakable).

Doublestrike- I did use doublestrike in my calcs (I mentioned it in the average damage per hit calc). However, I also forgot to remove it from the offhand hits.

Offhand str- I'm pretty sure I did use half str bonus for that, but I don't remember clearly. In any case, I'll make sure it's right when I correct the doublestrike.

The only bonus kensai I gets to two handed over a one handed weapon is that they get +2 extra on crits, which I put differently in the seeker damage.

Glancing blows- What I read, glancing blows happen on the first and fourth attack in your four attack sequence, which is half of them. What I read on the Two-handed Fighting Feats was that they increase the percentage of your base damage you deal on them as well as the chance to apply weapon effects.

Epic Souleater- Last I checked, an epic souleater does more than a force burst rahl's. It has a 2d6 19-20/x2, so crits on a 17. Just checked and confirmed that epic souleater will do a good bit more damage than a force burst rahl's.

[Failedlegend]

You also didn't include monks strikes its fine to disclude stuff like action boosts because both builds have access to it but the Khopesh wielder cannot use monk strikes but the Q-Staff wielder can whether its the 6fighter/1Monk or 7 Monk they still get strikes...you also assumed single target which undercuts one of THF strengths which is essentially an AOE attack especially if you take the cleave feats. Also speaking of their glancing blows taking GTHF makes it so 3/4ths of your hits have glancing blows

Also I don't see why the Khopesh wielder is only 2 Str behind.

THF Acro-Orc

Str 20
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 6


TWF Acro-Orc

Str 17
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 6

Even with the same equipment your TWF should be -3 Str and he also can't be in stance so that's -5 Str which may as well be -6 Str.

Oh and kensai only gives +1 damage to Khopesh not +2...it also improves your glancing blows.

Lots of little things but it all adds up to a smaller gap.

Note also that Vanshilar's calculations are ancient ie. weapon-type no longer effects attack speed (ie.Great Axe vs. Greatsword).

[Diyon]

You also didn't include monks strikes its fine to disclude stuff like action boosts because both builds have access to it but the Khopesh wielder cannot use monk strikes but the Q-Staff wielder can whether its the 6fighter/1Monk or 7 Monk they still get strikes...you also assumed single target which undercuts one of THF strengths which is essentially an AOE attack especially if you take the cleave feats.

Also I don't see why the Khopesh wielder is only 2 Str behind.

THF Acro-Orc

Str 20
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 6


TWF Acro-Orc

Str 17
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 6

Even with the same equipment your TWF should be -3 Str and he also can't be in stance so that's -5 Str which may as well be -6 Str

Oh and kensai only gives +1 damage to Khopesh not +2...it also improves your glancing blows.

Lots of little things but it all adds up to a smaller gap.

Note also that Vanshilar's calculations are ancient ie. weapon-type no longer effects attack speed (ie.Great Axe vs. Greatsword).

Monk strikes I left out for the same I left out boosts, I didn't feel like calculating the down time.

Cleave/great cleave I left out because you can't make a good comparison with that, but something to keep in mind.

I just dropped 2 str since it staff was getting 2 from souleater. Probably should work out something more reasonable.

You're right on the kensai, I got confused reading it because the number format is different on the two handed enhancements (I knew the numbers were different but I thought it was formatted the same). Glancing blow from kensai I left out since I lacked any numbers for it.

As to Vanshilar's, I'm pretty sure those are accurate, they are only a year old, and the attack speed on a great axe and greatsword IS the same. With no attack speed boosters. The speed is the same, how speed boosts affect them is not. If Vanshilar could confirm for us whether these numbers are dated or not, that be great.

I'll refine the calcs when I get the chance.

[Failedlegend]

Monk strikes I left out for the same I left out boosts, I didn't feel like calculating the down time.

Boosts I have no beef with cause both builds have access to it...monk strikes khopesh user CANT use

Cleave/great cleave I left out because you can't make a good comparison with that, but something to keep in mind.

It's quite easy 2 enemies = x2 damage....but assuming boss dps its one target in most cases so i'll let that slide.

Glancing blow from kensai I left out since I lacked any numbers for it.

Fair enough...just note that even if its only like 3% that in the end can be a decent amount of damage.

Also speaking of things that add more damage you also slotted the SA increase for Q-Staff users at 22...assuming 14 Start dex thats only a +6 item and +2 tome...add rogue dex, +3 tome, litany & exceptional to that and you get 32...and technically you can add 4 more from yugo pot and guild buff making it 36....the calc for bonus SA should be at least 32 (+11) not 22 (+6).

Overall though I think Q-Staff would still behind khopesh which is WRONG I don't expect a Acrobat to match an Assassin but a Q-Staff Acro should **** well beat a non-qstaff acro.

Oh almost forgot...doublestrike is mainhand only.