Artificers - You are the ultimate raid healers for most raids. Exploit this utility.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The same could be said of the guy with Healing Word.
No one *wants* to babysit a tank. But if you're going to choose to play a class with the ability to do so, then you should expect to have to do so at times.

Look at the Wizard that refused to Recon the WF VoD tank as an example.
Did you ask him to come along on your next run?

There is no situation in DDO that grants a player carte blanche access to demand heals.

You don't demand heals, you ask for heals, there's a big difference. Some people in this game do not know the difference. (not saying you are an example of this)

I agree that some quests/raids demand a healer thats on his/her A game. That's entirely different. A wizard who isn't reconnin' a VOD tank is probably being spiteful.

However, its up to the healer what the party gets. Mistreat a healer, if they give you squat for being a tool then I have zero sympathy for that tool.

[Calebro]

There is no situation in DDO that grants a player carte blanche access to demand heals.

You don't demand heals, you ask for heals, there's a big difference. Some people in this game do not know the difference. (not saying you are an example of this)

I agree that some quests/raids demand a healer thats on his/her A game. That's entirely different. A wizard who isn't reconnin' a VOD tank is probably being spiteful.

However, its up to the healer what the party gets. Mistreat a healer, if they give you squat for being a tool then I have zero sympathy for that tool.

I don't disagree with any particular point. But the statement MrWiz made was that most Artys want to kill things instead of healing. The sam4 could be said of anyone with the ability to heal.

It boils down to a player saying "don't tell me how to play!" and crying that others are being too demanding. But the fact of the matter is that those players are being self-centered and childish.
You do what will help the group the most.
An Artificer has the ability to be an excellent single target healer. This means that there will be times when the best thing you* can do to help the group will be healing.
To ignore that and cry foul because you* don't want to heal is childish and self-centered.
Period.

*you in the general sense, as in the player, not you specifically

[Captain_Wizbang]

..

Well Shade, the average person playing an arti doesn't play like you're suggesting.

While your post is valid on many points. The class is too new, and undoubtedly will get nerfed in some fashion or another.

I have only seen 1 player that utilizes the arti's many faceted abilities, even at that, he states the drawbacks to the class not being able to be more focused in any one area.

Time will tell, as the devs tweak the class, & players take advantage of its abilities.
Your post is about 2 months too early!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I don't disagree with any particular point. But the statement MrWiz made was that most Artys want to kill things instead of healing. The sam4 could be said of anyone with the ability to heal.

It boils down to a player saying "don't tell me how to play!" and crying that others are being too demanding. But the fact of the matter is that those players are being self-centered and childish.
You do what will help the group the most.
An Artificer has the ability to be an excellent single target healer. This means that there will be times when the best thing you* can do to help the group will be healing.
To ignore that and cry foul because you* don't want to heal is childish and self-centered.
Period.

*you in the general sense, as in the player, not you specifically

Not necessarily, Calebro. To me, by far the most important common denominator is how you ask. There are jerks on both sides of the fence.

I cant tell you how many pug party leaders I've seen damand a healer to heal when there was a better way (or the healers were already healing, or the person they need healed is on the other side of the map), demand the rogue to disable the trap when there was someone else fully capable, and willing. Its the DEMAND part that is wrong, it doesnt matter who is doing the demanding, or why.

There are many toons that can do many things, and many times the party leader doesnt take 2 minutes before the quest to examine all the options.

Artis can be great healers, but its the pigeon-holing I have a problem with.

At the end of the day I agree with you, I just ask that you dont ignore the fact there are plenty of jerky party leaders out there that dont know their party from a hole in their boots.

[danielhrobbins]

I posted it in the "what's a rogue to do in the new raids thread" but the bone to rogues for an better scroll line is solid too - you don't raise the caster level but you are a better scroll healer than just about anyone else as well.

Thank you. My rogue is DPS assassin build, 500hp (and yes, elf - suck it horcs! ), but still I always pack nearly as many scrolls as I can carry ... with scroll mastery I rarely need heals from the cleric anymore.

[Lifespawn]

When the choice in epic lord of blades is either 600 scrolls or 100+ major menonics, I'll take the scroll option every time. Anyone with a brain would.

Scrolls:
About 12k a stack with a basic hagglebot.
Major pots:
~15kpp each lately on khyber AH - and in greatly limited quanities.. Mass purchases tend to be higher priced.

600x 12kp
= 720kpp.. If everyone pooled together there plat income from the raid, you can pretty much break even on a single LoB run.
15kpp x 100
= 1.5 million platinum.. Good luck affording that every 3 days.

And 600 scrolls never happens per person. Last epic lob my fvs used 300 - and that was me using them every 6-7 seconds non stop, even it wasn't neccesary to do so just to help out as I can easily afford it.

600 is about the combined total of a what an entire raid group would use in there with 0 pot use and 0 aritificers.

Take a long a few scrolll spec aritificers and not only will things be easier, but also less costly, as that extra effeciency on scroll healing could bring the totals used way down.

Btw here's the proof:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=346598

Both new epic raids completed with 0 pots. LoB Optional complete too. My favored souls in that group. He has max scroll mastery for a reason.

am i missing something? 12k plat per stack stack being 100 scrolls 100x6 for 600 scrolls so 12k plat x 6 =72k not 720k

[WTFFowler]

No doubt an arti can scroll heal, but to really place the blame for a party wipe on an arti who thinks "There are real divines in here, let me clink clink with my crossbow" there is a much bigger underlying issue. Doesn't say much for the divines who arn't willing/able to heal someone either.

Almost as absurd as my arti getting blames for a von wipe when I didn't pack adamantine weapons. Its not that I won't load a certain spell to make sure your weapon can bypass dr, but to blame 1 toon who is a fairly competent player because a party couldn't bother bringing a dr breaker is just dumb. If you're that dependent on an arti using scrolls/wands or loading spells because you don't have a dr breaker than it seems kind of asinine to even gear toons for situations. Its also surprising to me than how people managed to run content before becoming completely dependent on one class to load spells to make sure they can get a dr breaker.

That said, I do keeps a few stacks of heal, raise dead, many other utility scrolls to use if need be. Doesn't mean i'm inclined to replace arcanes/divine/bards who can buff parties just just as well, if not better than my writings on paper. I use them if need be. Someone dings I'll say I will raise them so the divines don't have to stop and take attention away from the action

[Shade]

No doubt an arti can scroll heal, but to really place the blame for a party wipe on an arti who thinks "There are real divines in here, let me clink clink with my crossbow" there is a much bigger underlying issue. Doesn't say much for the divines who arn't willing/able to heal someone either.

Crossbows do terrible damage.

It would be a lot more effective to let the favored sould swing his greatsword and have you scrol heal, rather then him scroll heal and you shoot your terrible dps crossbow off.

There's also the fact artificers are the ONLY class in the game that can toss off an heal scroll at the same moment they are dps'ing (runearm).

So yea I'll place the blame where its due. You chose the class, you went on a challenging raid, take up the ideal role. Or accept the fact your contributed a lot less then you could have.

Raid wipes are almost never caused by 1 person alone, but there can certainly be some obvious major contributors. Artificers not contributing in what their best at and instead pretending there a dps class is just one very obvious one.

[inggold]

Crossbows do terrible damage.

It would be a lot more effective to let the favored sould swing his greatsword and have you scrol heal, rather then him scroll heal and you shoot your terrible dps crossbow off.

There's also the fact artificers are the ONLY class in the game that can toss off an heal scroll at the same moment they are dps'ing (runearm).

So yea I'll place the blame where its due. You chose the class, you went on a challenging raid, take up the ideal role. Or accept the fact your contributed a lot less then you could have.

Sorry, but care to show some math on the FvS statement? I've only played FvS to mid levels, but short of an epic SOS, an item that would be ridiculous to assume every FvS carries, can't see it. A series of Endless Fusillade blasts combined with the near continuous casting and resulting lightning vulnerabilities during Fusillade downtimes makes me really wonder if this is true.

Second statement is something of a falsehood, as any quickened caster can do the same thing and in the same way that an Arti could do - either way, you are swapping targets back and forth and clicking two buttons - target tank and scroll, retarget opponent fire spell/arm.

Difference, of course, is that an Arti dedicated to target can be keeping motes up as well, increasing not only his/her own lightning DPS, but that of every lightning strike hitting the target as well.... and implementing Wrack Construct in the appropriate encounters, etc.

While I do know that with some of the tank enhancements available and unique to Artificers that mine will be dedicating some time to a tank in shields, armor boosts, and the like, I will be drug kicking and screaming into a scroll healing role, and it flat out will not be in PUG's, which the majority of raiding is for me and many.

Sorry, but I'm not dropping 70k on a PUG raid so a FvS can swing a sword instead of use their massive blue bar, period. Guild raiding, maybe, where a guild vault can compensate and it furthers my guild....but again, I think many if not most do a whole lot of raiding PUG style.

(But then I'm also a person who sets my toons to adventure without automatically blowing plat, either, so the notion of scroll healing is anathema to me from the get go, and a person who stopped playing my cleric as it simply drives me batty for others to expect me to be nonstop blowing plat for them to stand there and swing a sword. Maybe others will relish the prospect.)

[Lifespawn]

Crossbows do terrible damage.

It would be a lot more effective to let the favored sould swing his greatsword and have you scrol heal, rather then him scroll heal and you shoot your terrible dps crossbow off.

There's also the fact artificers are the ONLY class in the game that can toss off an heal scroll at the same moment they are dps'ing (runearm).

So yea I'll place the blame where its due. You chose the class, you went on a challenging raid, take up the ideal role. Or accept the fact your contributed a lot less then you could have.

Raid wipes are almost never caused by 1 person alone, but there can certainly be some obvious major contributors. Artificers not contributing in what their best at and instead pretending there a dps class is just one very obvious one.

i have to disagree with the crossbow being terrible damage(on an arti) sure it's not as much as a twfer but it does plenty of damage to be a reliable form of dps and in many situations can do more via not having to chase a target down while still hitting.

A well built arti can add 15 int damage on top of the base+pbs+elemental weapons+effects on the repeater 70 to 90 a shot isn't terrible dps especially when you add in endless fusillade and augment that with rune arms.

[DragonTroy]

well, i am certainly making an artificer now. just have to decide whether to TR my bard/rogue or make a new toon

@shade: thank you, this is the first time ever i have ever wanted to try raid healing, or healing at all. and it does seem incredibly simple, I'm sure it would be at least a tad harder, if only for my lack of healing experience, but if i can learn how to heal from wiping a raid, I'll blame it on the cleric(this is a joke) and help with the reform

from everything i have read on the artificer(a good bit) it seem that it biggest challenge of the artificer is orchestrating the myriad of options and abilities you can do with them. but i wouldn't be surprised to find that once you do get it, you can be an incredible addition at any raid/epic/group/ whatever

excellent thread

[Vanquishedfo]

I don't disagree with any particular point. But the statement MrWiz made was that most Artys want to kill things instead of healing. The sam4 could be said of anyone with the ability to heal.

It boils down to a player saying "don't tell me how to play!" and crying that others are being too demanding. But the fact of the matter is that those players are being self-centered and childish.
You do what will help the group the most.
An Artificer has the ability to be an excellent single target healer. This means that there will be times when the best thing you* can do to help the group will be healing.
To ignore that and cry foul because you* don't want to heal is childish and self-centered.
Period.

*you in the general sense, as in the player, not you specifically

you seem very confused. See clerics and others specced for healing still favor working with self sufficient builds so they dont get stressed as much typically I know I do when I ran my 20 cleric before tring them into a clonk so I wouldnt have to stay anon to avoid being harrassed.

clerics never get black listed enough to have anything to worry about so threats like that never worry them and same will go for artis they are great for solo play and its one of the reasons to play them.

its pretty much been long agreed any content that forces someone to have to heal is bad content in need of redesign. as is the general perception from most other servers and other mmos that DDOs khyber server is full of rejects from wow who like to talk a big game but not play in one. DDO is a small casual MMO and meant for that type of play. those who come here to meta game every thing and helped kill DDOs rep like the OP of this thread who favor selfish glass sword builds and view others as his personal support crew are the last bits of advice anyone new to DDO should listen to.

[Calebro]

you seem very confused. See clerics and others specced for healing still favor working with self sufficient builds so they dont get stressed as much typically I know I do when I ran my 20 cleric before tring them into a clonk so I wouldnt have to stay anon to avoid being harrassed.

What does that have to do with the point I was making?

clerics never get black listed enough to have anything to worry about so threats like that never worry them and same will go for artis they are great for solo play and its one of the reasons to play them.

Again, this is irrelevant to the point that I was making.

its pretty much been long agreed any content that forces someone to have to heal is bad content in need of redesign. as is the general perception from most other servers and other mmos that DDOs khyber server is full of rejects from wow who like to talk a big game but not play in one. DDO is a small casual MMO and meant for that type of play. those who come here to meta game every thing and helped kill DDOs rep like the OP of this thread who favor selfish glass sword builds and view others as his personal support crew are the last bits of advice anyone new to DDO should listen to.

So two unrelated statements, followed by a ridiculous statement that all raids are badly developed, followed by an attack against an entire server, followed by an incorrect claim of the population of the game, followed by a personal attack against Shade.
Welcome to my Ignore List.

[inggold]

i have to disagree with the crossbow being terrible damage(on an arti) sure it's not as much as a twfer but it does plenty of damage to be a reliable form of dps and in many situations can do more via not having to chase a target down while still hitting.

A well built arti can add 15 int damage on top of the base+pbs+elemental weapons+effects on the repeater 70 to 90 a shot isn't terrible dps especially when you add in endless fusillade and augment that with rune arms.

Same thing I was thinking about that FvS claim.

Crit profiles are the same (assuming a WF FvS here) for heavy repeater and great sword. Assume both are GS weapons so ignore the procs from base weapon...one wears charged gaunts, other wears howling bracer...and since both have damage boosts, we'll call those even, even thought the Arti can alternate between dmg boosts AND Fusillades...

Heavy Repeater is 2d8 base + 2d8 PBS + ~15 Insightful Strikes + 2d6 or 2d8 + 2 dmg enchance + 2 dmg bracer

Great Sword is 3d6 + 2 FvS enh + 30 STR bonus (can a FvS really get this high? Maybe...) + 4 Vulkoor.... missing anything?

4d8 + 19 + 2d8 vs. 3d6 + 36.... that's what, 46 vs 48.5? And assumes a hit per hit comparison...not sure how rates of attack truly compare, but an Arti with haste and 10% ranged Alacrity might be just a bit faster in firing off shots over time. *Feels* faster to me but it might just be the animations, gotta test it with a bud side by side.

[Faent]

Sorry, but I'm not dropping 70k on a PUG raid so a FvS can swing a sword instead of use their massive blue bar, period. Guild raiding, maybe, where a guild vault can compensate and it furthers my guild....but again, I think many if not most do a whole lot of raiding PUG style.

Sounds like you need to stay out of Lord of Blades if it's being run on anything above Normal. And you'd better be compensating your healers when they use pots and scrolls to ensure your completion. You'll go further if you lost the stingy attitude and actually did everything you could to contribute to success. The people who carry you to completion will know it. Trust me.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Same thing I was thinking about that FvS claim.

Crit profiles are the same (assuming a WF FvS here) for heavy repeater and great sword. Assume both are GS weapons so ignore the procs from base weapon...one wears charged gaunts, other wears howling bracer...and since both have damage boosts, we'll call those even, even thought the Arti can alternate between dmg boosts AND Fusillades...

Heavy Repeater is 2d8 base + 2d8 PBS + ~15 Insightful Strikes + 2d6 or 2d8 + 2 dmg enchance + 2 dmg bracer

Great Sword is 3d6 + 2 FvS enh + 30 STR bonus (can a FvS really get this high? Maybe...) + 4 Vulkoor.... missing anything?

4d8 + 19 + 2d8 vs. 3d6 + 36.... that's what, 46 vs 48.5? And assumes a hit per hit comparison...not sure how rates of attack truly compare, but an Arti with haste and 10% ranged Alacrity might be just a bit faster in firing off shots over time. *Feels* faster to me but it might just be the animations, gotta test it with a bud side by side.

Attack speed really is a huge factor which you aren't taking into account. The two might actually have quite similar attack speeds (when comparing twitch vs repeater) but more testing would have to be done. You're forgetting the +10 damage from power attack in your calcs and it's important to clarify that THF'ers get 1.5x strength modifier to damage. I'm pretty sure that it's plausible for a WF FvS to get to the 50 strength needed for +30 mod at least in bursts (titan's grip and maybe even madstone if appropriate).

(to clarify madstone comment: A warforged favoured soul can quite happily madstone in quite a few raids in which the structure is for the healers to take turns. WF FvS heals first, burns all SP healing, puts on boots and goes nuts until boss is dead).

There is also a bigger picture to consider in that comparing 2 builds with GS weapons isn't necessarily an appropriate comparison anymore as GS weapons are not really "end game". Give each build the best weapon available to them (eSoS for FvS and hellfire or alchemical for Artificer and you will see that the FvS will pull ahead).

WF FvS' get +4 damage mod to Greatswords. Melee builds also have quite a few more boosts available to them like the ~+7 damage of ravager set. In ideal situations too a WF FvS will benefit from Deadly Weapons while Deadly Weapons isn't working on crossbows at the moment (afaik).

You'll also likely see better AB scores for melee builds which will affect DPS against some enemies.

[inggold]

Sounds like you need to stay out of Lord of Blades if it's being run on anything above Normal. And you'd better be compensating your healers when they use pots and scrolls to ensure your completion. You'll go further if you lost the stingy attitude and actually did everything you could to contribute to success. The people who carry you to completion will know it. Trust me.

It is very interesting to me that you should in the same statement say I'm being stingy for not wanting to (myself) supply the stacks of scrolls, and go on to suggest that I should supply them to a healer.

I do believe in this case this *is* the healer saying bring the dang stacks of scrolls. Is it not?

What I'm saying I'm *not* going to be is an automatic PEZ dispenser of my plat to keep up the random hero meatshield.... especially if I'm dispensing PEZ while I watch someone with a 2500+ blue bar (meant for, let's face it, exactly keeping up that meatshield) instead swinging a sword the whole time!

(I am one of those that stopped playing a cleric for this very reason btw - I will not see my toon be a plat sink for others to profit off and never even think about compensating. Guild runs, it is thought of... PUG's, more often not. Guildies I will burn plat for, PUG's, not so much. I don't enjoy the "stare at red bars" game to begin with, but when it is also a money loser.... yeah right.)



Maybe a sideline, but... In my view, a FvS (or other divine casting capable caster) ending a fight with 50-75% mana because he was busy swinging a sword while others are nonstop scroll burning is the *biggest* waste of resources/source of not contributing, as those are the truly free spells being wasted in favor of burning plat.... do you disagree?

[inggold]

Attack speed really is a huge factor which you aren't taking into account. The two might actually have quite similar attack speeds (when comparing twitch vs repeater) but more testing would have to be done. You're forgetting the +10 damage from power attack in your calcs and it's important to clarify that THF'ers get 1.5x strength modifier to damage. I'm pretty sure that it's plausible for a WF FvS to get to the 50 strength needed for +30 mod at least in bursts (titan's grip and maybe even madstone if appropriate).

(to clarify madstone comment: A warforged favoured soul can quite happily madstone in quite a few raids in which the structure is for the healers to take turns. WF FvS heals first, burns all SP healing, puts on boots and goes nuts until boss is dead).

There is also a bigger picture to consider in that comparing 2 builds with GS weapons isn't necessarily an appropriate comparison anymore as GS weapons are not really "end game". Give each build the best weapon available to them (eSoS for FvS and hellfire or alchemical for Artificer and you will see that the FvS will pull ahead).

WF FvS' get +4 damage mod to Greatswords. Melee builds also have quite a few more boosts available to them like the ~+7 damage of ravager set. In ideal situations too a WF FvS will benefit from Deadly Weapons while Deadly Weapons isn't working on crossbows at the moment (afaik).

You'll also likely see better AB scores for melee builds which will affect DPS against some enemies.

Thank you! My only pure melee is a light monk, and only other real sword swinger is my mid level FvS, so knew I would miss some stuff. I also skipped Bolt modifiers as well though, and that 2d6/3d6 of bane the FvS cannot get goes a long way towards equalizing a couple of missed enhancers, and adds to AB as it stacks to base weapons AB off a bolt.


I keep meaning to test attack speeds with a bud.... repeaters *feel* so much faster, but the reload throws it off... gotta get that done, satisfy a personal curiousity.

[Vormaerin]

Is reading comprehension really that much of a lost art?

No one is saying that the FvS /should/ be meleeing instead of healing. Just that the argument that artificers benefit the group by DPSing only instead of also healing extensively is bogus. All Shade said was that if one of the healers is going to gimp out and play weapon based DPS exclusively, then the raid would be better off with the FvS doing it than the artificer.

Also, no one said that the artificer should shell out 72k per raid. First, that number of scrolls is several times what is likely to be needed. Second, it was stated that many raiders would gladly help with paying for the scrolls if necessary.

He didn't even say that the arti should be sole healer, though he did say it would be possible.

All he really said was that in raids where the healers use scrolls to maintain their blue bar for the urgent tasks and DPS, the artificer should be doing the scroll healing part....whether Heal or Reconstruct.

Can we at least object to his actual points, not fantasy land constructs?

[Habreno]

It is very interesting to me that you should in the same statement say I'm being stingy for not wanting to (myself) supply the stacks of scrolls, and go on to suggest that I should supply them to a healer.

I do believe in this case this *is* the healer saying bring the dang stacks of scrolls. Is it not?

What I'm saying I'm *not* going to be is an automatic PEZ dispenser of my plat to keep up the random hero meatshield.... especially if I'm dispensing PEZ while I watch someone with a 2500+ blue bar (meant for, let's face it, exactly keeping up that meatshield) instead swinging a sword the whole time!

(I am one of those that stopped playing a cleric for this very reason btw - I will not see my toon be a plat sink for others to profit off and never even think about compensating. Guild runs, it is thought of... PUG's, more often not. Guildies I will burn plat for, PUG's, not so much. I don't enjoy the "stare at red bars" game to begin with, but when it is also a money loser.... yeah right.)



Maybe a sideline, but... In my view, a FvS (or other divine casting capable caster) ending a fight with 50-75% mana because he was busy swinging a sword while others are nonstop scroll burning is the *biggest* waste of resources/source of not contributing, as those are the truly free spells being wasted in favor of burning plat.... do you disagree?

Put things this way. Would you rather spend 100 scrolls, which you can buy for 12.5k plat with a decent Haggle, or have the Cleric spend 20k plat on a memonic, which isn't as good as that stack of scrolls? I'll toss a reply to your answer then, with my comment.