Melee 'sp' pots

[Setin_Myways]

Given the frequency of the 'nerf cast sp pot' threads I have been thinking of a comparable item that would help level the melee playing field a bit. i think it is always better to boost a bit than nerf, so with that in mind, i was thinking of a 'melee sp pot' these would come in a variety of flavors, like a csw or a barkskin so they have a secondary effect, but they also restore all the used action points of a melee toon so they can use more of their ap clickies per rest.

The primary 'balance issue' that people say sp pots cause (do not wish to debate it) is that a caster can cast more spells in the period between shrines and sp pots allow them to not have ot manage their sp. The equivalent is the ap clickie of the fighter, i.e. the attack boost or the haste boost, or even the dm or dv of a pally/cleric. This pot would allow melees to enjoy similar benefits that the sp pot provides. maybe a major 'melee sp pot' would shorten the cool down for a period of time....

Thoughts?

[R0cksteady]

Heal pots
Action boost/rage pots

Definitely sign.

[Bargol]

I think the issue is more that a wiz or sorc can do much more DPS then a melee. A cleric or fvs can heal much more per sp pot then any cure/heal pot available.

The equivalent would be a heal pot that restores 1500 hp per use....or a damage boost pot that increases melee damage by 200% for a minute or two.

[R0cksteady]

I think the issue is more that a wiz or sorc can do much more DPS then a melee. A cleric or fvs can heal much more per sp pot then any cure/heal pot available.

The equivalent would be a heal pot that restores 1500 hp per use....or a damage boost pot that increases melee damage by 200% for a minute or two.

no way, then melees would be doing as much damage as a FvS or a sorc, and then what? if melees are doing as much as them, what do they have? CC? Instakill? Healing?

We have to make sure to keep balance, in the way of "Casters and Divine casters do everything a melee can do but better, and a ton of other stuff as well". Otherwise, melees might be useful.

[KraahgDaAxe]

End Game Melee's should not ... I repeat SHOULD NOT ... be anywhere close to comprable to End Game Casters. Caster's at end game should ALWAYS be more powerful then melee's.

Anything else would be uncivilized.

Kraahg

[Angelus_dead]

I strenuously don't recommend trying it, but it is an interesting academic exercise to try coming up with some melee potions that would have a similar effect on game balance as the existing Mnemonic Enhancers do.

Adding something that merely recharges the rages, turns, and action boosts of a melee character would not accomplish that, because (aside from Smite Evil) melee resources cannot be spent very fast. Unless someone is dying over and over it takes 10+ minutes to use up Power Surge or 15+ to expend Barbarian Rage. Meanwhile a caster could burn through 2000+ spellpoints in 60 seconds if he's going wild.

For potions that would influence melee victory to the same degree that mana pots can allow a caster to "Drink To The Win", consider these:

• Damage Drink: For the next 30 seconds your attacks do +40 damage.
• Survival Drink: For the next 5 minutes you have +30 max hp, which stacks with additional drinks.
• Hjeal Me Drink: You get 300 Hjeal points added to you, and healing spells cast on you are deducted from those instead of using spellpoints. (Split fractionally among the targets of a mass spell). The Hjeal points are visible in the party list after your red bar.

Actually that last Hjeal potion would almost be awesome...

[Kushiel]

Given the frequency of the 'nerf cast sp pot' threads I have been thinking of a comparable item that would help level the melee playing field a bit. i think it is always better to boost a bit than nerf, so with that in mind, i was thinking of a 'melee sp pot' these would come in a variety of flavors, like a csw or a barkskin so they have a secondary effect, but they also restore all the used action points of a melee toon so they can use more of their ap clickies per rest.

The primary 'balance issue' that people say sp pots cause (do not wish to debate it) is that a caster can cast more spells in the period between shrines and sp pots allow them to not have ot manage their sp. The equivalent is the ap clickie of the fighter, i.e. the attack boost or the haste boost, or even the dm or dv of a pally/cleric. This pot would allow melees to enjoy similar benefits that the sp pot provides. maybe a major 'melee sp pot' would shorten the cool down for a period of time....

Thoughts?

If it restored things like Wild Empathies, the songs from Bardic Diettante past life feat, and character aspects along those lines I do think that would be great - and be in step with the benefits casters gain from pots which allow them to continue using significant abilities.

Some could complain that it is too close to (that the benefit is already present from) using a Shrine. But as a pot it would only restore inherent *character* abilities... not reset clickies.

If a "Major Melee SP Pot" could shorten cool-downs, could that also affect Manyshot? I'd gladly make inventory space for those pots in my backpack! ;-}

::Adding:: Seems like there would be both the loot sort that drop from chests as well as BTA stacks that could be purchases from the Store.

[Angelus_dead]

End Game Melee's should not ... I repeat SHOULD NOT ... be anywhere close to comprable to End Game Casters.

That would be an incredibly bad goal.

Certainly there could be some fantasy settings where spellcasting has an inherently higher power potential than melee... but it would be foolish to use that setting in a game involving melee player characters. If the designers were intentionally not letting melee classes reach the same power level, they shouldn't let them be played at all.

[Missing_Minds]

I strenuously don't recommend trying it, but it is an interesting academic exercise to try coming up with some melee potions that would have a similar effect on game balance as the existing Mnemonic Enhancers do.

Actually I find it to be very easy to balance it, but it would really SUCK. You up the rate of equipment damage by a fair amount. (watch the price of muckbanes and everbrights sky rocket now.)

Equipment wears out, easy enough to agree upon.

Now to make it similar, You'd have to have "repair djinn fast servant" anvils. 1 "drink" and all equipment you currently have equipped is repaired per expert crafters for "neumonic" (standard) random worth of equipment hit points.

Instead of the "summon a repair" anvil where you have to interact with the djinn. Wouldn't that be great in the middle of a fight. "Oh darn.. my sword just broke. Wait here a second while I get McDonalds to repair it for me. Wont' take but a sec." (30 minutes later for a repair due to food, potty, etc.) "Oh dude.. Harry. I'm sorry man. Where were we again? Oh right, me kicking your rear."

[Setin_Myways]

If it restored things like Wild Empathies, the songs from Bardic Diettante past life feat, and character aspects along those lines I do think that would be great - and be in step with the benefits casters gain from pots which allow them to continue using significant abilities.

Some could complain that it is too close to (that the benefit is already present from) using a Shrine. But as a pot it would only restore inherent *character* abilities... not reset clickies.

If a "Major Melee SP Pot" could shorten cool-downs, could that also affect Manyshot? I'd gladly make inventory space for those pots in my backpack! ;-}

::Adding:: Seems like there would be both the loot sort that drop from chests as well as BTA stacks that could be purchases from the Store.

yeah, i am referring to only the ap clickes not anything from items. I suggested additional benefits because i beleive resetting just the ap clickies would not be enough. Perhaps they would shorten the recharge rate, so using these potions would allow me to maintain the ap clickie with little or no cool down.

as for a melee never approaching a caster at end game, I think the reason why the gap is so large is due to the lack of epic feats and levels. In a world where devastating critical is enabled And a horc could achieve this at lvl 21 - well no rdd so probably 24), you watch a mage become a buff bot compared to killing power of a melee, as the dc of dev crit would be in the 50s on a regular basis.

[Vellrad]

yeah, i am referring to only the ap clickes not anything from items. I suggested additional benefits because i beleive resetting just the ap clickies would not be enough. Perhaps they would shorten the recharge rate, so using these potions would allow me to maintain the ap clickie with little or no cool down.

as for a melee never approaching a caster at end game, I think the reason why the gap is so large is due to the lack of epic feats and levels. In a world where devastating critical is enabled And a horc could achieve this at lvl 21 - well no rdd so probably 24), you watch a mage become a buff bot compared to killing power of a melee, as the dc of dev crit would be in the 50s on a regular basis.

Yeah because one powerful attack is more devastating than destrucion of whole planet with a singe snap of the fingers.

Edit:
Oh, I found it

Apocalypse From The Sky Evocation [Evil]
Level: Cleric 9, Corrupt 9, Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 10-mile/level radius emanation, centred on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes


Calling on the darkest forces in all existence, this spell rains death and ruin from the sky. It is known to level forests and wipe out cities. So mighty is this spell that even its caster is not safe.

All creatures and objects in the area are dealt 20d6 damage, which ignores DR and hardness of all kinds. The caster is also subject to the damage.

And its not even epic spell!

@topic
/signed
Melees should have some way to regain used action boosts.

[WirelessJoe]

End Game Melee's should not ... I repeat SHOULD NOT ... be anywhere close to comprable to End Game Casters. Caster's at end game should ALWAYS be more powerful then melee's.

Anything else would be uncivilized.

Kraahg

[GotSomeQuestions]

Yeah because one powerful attack is more devastating than destrucion of whole planet with a singe snap of the fingers.

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

[WirelessJoe]

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

Were Jedi casters with weapons, or melee with UMD?

[GeneralDiomedes]

End Game Melee's should not ... I repeat SHOULD NOT ... be anywhere close to comprable to End Game Casters. Caster's at end game should ALWAYS be more powerful then melee's.

Why do people insist on this being so? I think PnP got it wrong and I think it's great they changed their minds with 4e.

[Tunst]

Were Jedi casters with weapons, or melee with UMD?

monks.
whirling sabor shield
and ranged ki attacks

[Snapdragoon]

the reason spellcasters are so good is there sp bar in DDO.

in PnP you get so many level 1, level 2, level 3, etc. per day

in DDO all the different levels per day have all been mushed into one bar that all spells can pull from. while this detracts from the "do i save this spell for a bigger monster that could come later or use it now?" it makes it easy in an MMO setting

imagine if all spells were like action boosts, with a little number in the corner that was shared by other spells of its level, and every time you used one of that level the number went down until you were out of spells of that level. that would be a perfect PnP representation, and it would get rid of the blue bar :P

however i think it would DESTROY spellcasting, either that or all saves would have to come down so when a caster DID use one if his now precious spells it worked almost all the time

[Memek]

The AoE potion: For the next 15 minutes, all your tactical strikes and basic attacks deal AoE damage, Haste Radius.

The "Kiting-Equivalence" Potion: Casters can kite while melees have to be in melee range and take damage; Taking damage is bad, so we need this - "Protection from Death" - for the next 5 minutes, your health cannot fall below 1 HP.

The single-target-DPS potion: For the next 2 minutes, damage you do against a foe that you have targetted gets doubled.

Heal potions, caster level 20, are a given. Casters can self-heal very well, can they not?

;-)

[Ruphus]

Honestly, I do like the idea of a rare drop (along the lines of mnemonics) combat enhancer potion, something like...

Minor Combat Enhancer
Min level 1
Recharges 1 Action boost
+5% haste (that stacks with all other hastes)for 1 minute
+2 damage per melee attack for 1 minute
+2 Innate Strength and Constitution (stacks with all other bonuses) for 1 minute

Lesser Combat Enhancer
Min level 4
Recharges 1 Action boost
+5% haste (that stacks with all other hastes) for 1 Minute
+4 damage per melee attack for 1 minute
+2 Innate Strength and Constitution (stacks with all other bonuses) for 1 minute

Combat Enhancer
Min level 8
Recharges 2 Action boosts
+7.5% haste (that stacks with all other hastes) for 1 Minute
+6 damage per melee attack for 1 minute
+4 Innate Strength and Constitution (stacks with all other bonuses) for 1 minute

Greater Combat Enhancer
Min level 12
Recharges 2 Action boost
+7.5% haste (that stacks with all other hastes) for 1 Minute
+8 damage per melee attack for 1 minute
+4 Innate Strength and Constitution (stacks with all other bonuses) for 1 minute

Major Combat Enhancer
Min level 16
Recharges 3 Action boosts
+10% haste (that stacks with all other hastes) for 1 Minute
+10 damage per melee attack for 1 minute
+6 Innate Strength and Constitution (stacks with all other bonuses) for 1 minute


*** But, I think, honestly, if you really want to bring the melee's back into balance a bit, they need to have End game encounters with boss mobs that go fully "Magic Immune" for parts of the fight, Like Horoth should put up an area of Anti magic about every other minute that lasts for a minute.

That will give melee dps it's rightful place, and make some encounters a LOT more interesting.

Plus, it makes it a LOT harder to solo some of those bosses for the casters

[shadowhop]

I dislike the major role of the potions in endgame, so i would not like to see any extra pots to come to ddo and to get a cooldown on the sp pots so that you can't use them as an extra spbar, but just for an oh ***** moment.