Holy Avenger (with a twist) for Paladins

[Zachski]

As long as one of the enhancements lets me make the sword have a blue flame* that deals both fire and good damage to enemies, I'll be extremely happy with the Holy Avenger.

*A reference to Quest for Glory series of games, where the Paladin prestige let you obtain two longswords (only because you lose one of them as the plotline progresses) that flamed up with a blue flame of honor that deals fire damage to enemies, but can pierce the fire resistance that demons have.

Of course, Paladins in Quest for Glory are Neutral Good as opposed to Lawful Good - Doing what is right is more important than doing what is lawful.

[sephiroth1084]

Could maybe tie this to KotC and give people a reason to run that PrE now that devils don't comprise the entirety of the endgame.

The real question about the sword itself, though, is where the power level needs to be targeted: greensteel? Alchemical weapons? Epics?

[Musouka]

Okay, without going point by point, I'll try to answer some of the concerns.

Lack of a Steed shouldn't increase DPS - Since the game is pretty much DPS, some extra DPS doesn't hurt. However, since Rangers didn't get their Companions in DDO, my understanding was that Rangers received both ranged and TWF feats, which usually aren't both given to Rangers. Now I might be wrong since it's been a while since I've played PnP, but this was my understanding. If this is true, how is what I'm proposing much different?

Having TWF and Ranged feats benefits the Arcane Archer mostly. It does not grant much benefit to the Tempest, as they will still do more DPS remaining TWF the whole time. Ranging only as needed. A ranger is a totally different discussion, as their balance has been argued over and over in the past.

Feats - When you say what other feats do Paladins need, I think you kind of answered one of the complaints people have about Paladins: currently they are very much cookie cutter. I'll answer you with some feats a Paladin could choose though that you didn't mention (although this is going off-topic a bit). Extend is nice for the self-buffs that Paladins cast so recasting in fights is at least minimized. Eschew Materials to give more room in the inventory. Any of the Tactical feats, especially Improve Sunder since Fort has been increased on raid bosses. The Shield Mastery line and Improved Shield Bash for the DoS. Skill Focus: UMD might be something that someone wants.

I showed you that you can have extra feats to spend on certain things like this. I only referenced 7 feat slots. What about humans? They get 1 more.

Enhancement resets - If swapping the Enhancements every 3 days is seen as too overpowered (but not for Arti's dogs?), then I'm sure the Devs would extend the number of days. Or they might require a turn-in of some item before it can happen, similar to the Feat exchange. Or maybe they might go the extreme measure of not allowing any changes at all. I'm really not seeing where this is that big of an issue because it will be adjusted as seen fit.

Have you even looked at the Pet's Enhancements? Nearly all of them are combat tactics or survivability. The only thing that really increases their DPS is strength increase, which they only get 2 of, some points into sneak attack(which we know is awesome for the new High Fort Bosses) and one of their specific capstone enhancements granding some alacrity and doublestrike. Not very much on adding damage here or there. I don't see them getting added damage that will make them more effective against certain mobs, or them getting +6 or +7 to their weapon enhancement.

Canon deems that the Holy Avenger must only be a Long Sword - Drow are evil. Halflings shouldn't be able to use Greataxes. Player's footies should be in Goblin's butties. There's a bunch of things that should and shouldn't happen in DDO because of canon or source materials... But since the game is a MMO and not tabletop, some things are changed. Also there is the whole "house rules" that Turbine gets to decide what they like and don't. Also if (from what I understand) the intention of the Devs was to create the Holy Avenger as THE Paladin weapon that paladins will unlock the weapon as they gain levels, I think allowing Players to pick the type of weapon (or at least bladed weapon) of their choice. Why saddle THF paladins, Khopesh paladins, scimitar paladins etc with a weapon that they don't want or will not use? If you don't like it, just pretend that Paladin was duped into getting a false (and weaker) Holy Avenger, just like I pretend that it's gremlins inside the Cannith crafting machines.

Actually Canon does not deem Drow evil in Eberron. Which they aren't in DDO. It doesn't say Halflings shouldn't be able to use Greataxes, but rather they would use smaller Greataxes that do less damage. However, I do understand the coding of small weapons versus Medium Weapons, and it wouldn't be so great to just have 1 race that you have to cater to for weapons as such. Why saddle them with one type of weapon? That is how it has been done over and over, because it is not meant to be as easy as an end all, be all.

The Holy Avenger must be rare because it's one of a kind - Hmmm... Shouldn't most named items in the game be one-of-a-kind? Again, since this is a MMO and not tabletop, the game shouldn't be making one of a kind named weapons for people. Again, I don't really see this argument being that big of a deal for a MMO.

Not everything's going to be perfect; and even if it were perfect, it won't last long.

I already addressed that you can't just have ONE in an MMO, but you can still make it rare. Not everyone has an SoS, that wants one. Not everyone has a Torc, that wants one. Not everyone has a Bloodstone. Which still leans toward these items being Rare. In a PnP campaign, you're going to have just 1, which is extremely small scale compared to an MMO. So scale it up, and the weapon is still rare if it is some random named drop out of a chest that binds to character on acquire.

[Ralmeth]

I am all for adding the Holy Avenger to the game, but I don't think the developers will just give it to every Paladin once they can cast a 4th level spell. Besides, casting Holy Sword every time you log in and hop into a quest is just annoying. My guess is that the developers will instead have us grind for some type of ingredients...It wouldn't be a Holy Avenger if you didn't have to quest long and hard to get it

[Musouka]

I am all for adding the Holy Avenger to the game, but I don't think the developers will just give it to every Paladin once they can cast a 4th level spell. Besides, casting Holy Sword every time you log in and hop into a quest is just annoying. My guess is that the developers will instead have us grind for some type of ingredients...It wouldn't be a Holy Avenger if you didn't have to quest long and hard to get it

Agreed.

I'm all for keeping it one weapon, but if they must allow you to choose what weapon it is, so be it. Regardless, it should not be granted and should not have 40 extra AP to customize it. Customize it with ingredients if you must, but keep them rare, like Large Devil Scales or Flawless Red Dragon Scales.

[grgurius]

Could maybe tie this to KotC and give people a reason to run that PrE now that devils don't comprise the entirety of the endgame.

The real question about the sword itself, though, is where the power level needs to be targeted: greensteel? Alchemical weapons? Epics?

Epic, on par with the best of them, otherwise is just fluff.

[kartos]

I like the idea but I have a different perspective about what the enhancements should be (I'm not a PnP player so sorry if these seem out of theme),the enhancements should reflect the paladin creed and faith and should also emphasize more on the divine aspect than the warrior (DPS) aspect and it should not get holy burst property as it would kinda make the holy sword spell rather redundant and not needed... so here is my version of the weapon:

Holy Avenger
Long Sword
Damage Roll: 1D8+2 (+5 in the hands of a paladin)
exclusive
BtC
special: this weapon could be used as a substitute for a material component for holy sword spell essentially granting it all of the properties of a holy sword in addition to it's own properties
special 2: can be customized by a paladin using the HAE (Holy Avenger Enhancement)

HAE list:

Avenger of the [insert faith here]
requires: advanced belief in [faith]

The Holy Avenger is used by a follower of [insert faith here] and thus is transformed into the favored weapon of [insert faith here] also on a vopral hit the HA will refresh the faith ability if it's on cool down and also will cause it's effect also the faith ability now has a half time cool down.
Also grants the revert HA sub ability (allows you to return HA into a longsword)

*basically this ability halves the CD on the faith ability and gives a free use of it on a vopral attack (so resurrect a dead party member if elf faith,transforms if WF,heals if SH,banishes if SF or summons a scorpion if drow) + resets CD

HA of Exalted Smiting I-IV
requires: Extra smite I-IV
essentially using a regular smite with the HA counts as using an exalted smite of the corresponding tier.
This enhancement line frees 12.5% of the Paladin AP but it costs 25% of the HA AP and also is limited to 1 weapon

Channel of the divine
requires : DM I
your DM bonus is increased by 1 per tier of DM (so DM I is +3 and DM IV is +12)

Divine Amplifier

Increases all your aura bonuses by a +1 or +2 if the corresponding aura benefit is maxed out

Charismatic Fighting HA

uses your CHA instead of STR for to hit (maybe also damage dunno)

Bastard HA*

increases the size of your HA allowing you to treat it as BS (damage 1D10+5 treated as THF if you have shield or nothing in off hand)

Sharpened HA*

increases crit range to 18-20

Harming HA*

increases Crit Multi by 1

Double sized HA*

treat as GS

* lock out each other

Life Channeling HA

like vampiarisim just heals all that inside the aura

Bane of the [insert paladin enemy here]

gains the property greater bane of [enemy] 1 type at a time only

Good HA

becomes weapon of good (could be copied for other effects but carries only 1 at a time)


also the HA should have ~1% of drop in any chest and a quest which has 100% drop if certain optional conditions are met

[Calebro]

I like the idea but I have a different perspective about what the enhancements should be (I'm not a PnP player so sorry if these seem out of theme),the enhancements should reflect the paladin creed and faith and should also emphasize more on the divine aspect than the warrior (DPS) aspect and it should not get holy burst property as it would kinda make the holy sword spell rather redundant and not needed... so here is my version of the weapon:

Running a level 2 quest on elite at level 1 (or a level 9 quest on elite at level 8, etc), solo on a melee, isn't a cake walk. Remember, with elite scaling, a level 2 quest on elite is harder than a level 4 quest on normal, and you're on a solo 1st level melee.
I'm using this as a baseline because that's when the quest will be easiest to complete. The higher level you get before completing this quest, the harder it gets to complete.
The quest should be long, and impossible to easy-button-invis your way through, requiring many kills and lots of combat.
Actually acquiring the Holy Avenger will be beyond some players' abilities. Because of that, Holy Sword will not be completely redundant. It would only be redundant for the people that can acquire an HA.

[aerendhil]

Holy Avenger : your choice of a Longsword, Bastard sword or Two-handed sword
Exclusive - BtC
+4
Cold Iron
Holy
Pure Good
SR22
On-hit : dispel magic (CL=10)
Break Enchantment 1/Day (CL=10)
Min Lvl 10 - Paladin Only (no UMD)


Epic Holy Avenger : previous weapon upgrade
Exclusive - BtC
Holy strike : this weapon has an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your paladin levels (min 4 , max 10)
Metalline
Holy Burst
Greater Good
Radiance
SR34
True Seeing
On-hit : greater dispel magic (CL=20)
Break Enchantment 3/Day (CL=20)
Red Augment Slot
Min Lvl 20 - Paladin Only (no UMD)

[JOTMON]

I like it.

Make it availabe as soon as the Paladin can cast Holy avenger.
The summoned weapon is based on whatever the weapon base material is.. bsword/mace/rapier...whatever

Enhancement line for THF/2WF/SnB
Enhancments to personalize it, like the arty pet development, develops as the Paladin level's

Modules like the Artificer Docent/Module could be quest oriented pieces that can be put on the weapon to uberize it.

Don't think it should be available to pass around though. strictly BTC..

[Musouka]

I like it.

Make it availabe as soon as the Paladin can cast Holy avenger.

When would that be? Level 2ish?

[oradafu]

When would that be? Level 2ish?

I assume Jotmon meant Holy Sword. And that would be level 14 for a pure Paladin.

[Xenostrata]

I like the idea of a customizable sword, but not so much as a class feature - it would limit my other weapon choices a bit much.

[JOTMON]

I assume Jotmon meant Holy Sword. And that would be level 14 for a pure Paladin.

Ty..
yes,
Start at Paladin level 14. (Paladin Spell level 4)
Holy Sword as the base to summon the weapon(s), it also ensures that Paladin is the Primary class to benefit from the Holy Avenger Weapon.
So no 6 level splash Pally running around with a pally sword of uberness.

Add a Quest to get a Holy weapon base weapon that does not dissapear on use to work with the summoning spell
Since it starts at level 14 would only get 24ish enhancements specific to holy sword with different paths options.
Module and Docent slot to craft some interesting effects or add Paladin specific additional quest related items, and Epic potential.

[Musouka]

Here's your Holy Avenger... recently added to the Lamannia server, and will be in Update 12. I actually like how they made it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=73

It is a long sword!



That's it for everyone non-paladin.



There it is on a paladin. I approve this implementation.

[oradafu]

I saw it. It's "meh". I question parts of it. I'll leave it at that.

[Infiltraitor]

My Ideal Avenger weapon

X Holy Avenger
Bound to Character on Acquire
Magic Level: 0
Type: Longsword / Greatsword / Scimitar / Shortsword / Longbow / Rapier / Falchion / Dwarven Axe (Because non-humans can be Paladins too)
Critical Roll: Normal for that weapon
Attack: Strength
Damage: Strength
Enhancement Bonus equal to half your paladin level when wielded in your main hand (idea stolen from aerendhil)
Metalline
Aligned
Your Smites regenerate at 1 per 10 seconds.
Craftable +10

solves every problem I have with Paladins.
1) Smites prevent auto-attack boredom.
2) Enhancement bonus for Paladin levels only makes it scale best with pure paladins.
3) Craftable allows non-paladins to put +5 enhancement on it and use it as a twink weapon.
4) Craftable also allows paladins to heavily customize it for their build and combat roles.
5) Mainhand only bonus heavily favors S&B Defenders, who greatly need the DPS bonus.

Overall DPS would be between Min II Greensteel and Alchemical
2d8 Alchemical Axe + 7 Enhancement + 1d6 Acid Burst + 12 Lightning Strike + 6 doublestrike + 5 Acid Torrent = 42
1d10 Dwarven Avenger Axe + 10 Enhancement + 2d6 Holy + 4 GEOB + 3d6 GEOB = 37
1d10 Normal Cannith Crafted Axe + 5 Enhancement + 2d6 Holy + 4 GEOB + 3d6 GEOB = 32
2d8 GS Dwarven Axe + 5 Enhancement + 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Acid + 1d4 slicing = 27