Holy Avenger (with a twist) for Paladins

[Mighty_Bozo]

+1 I'd love to see that, wich reminds me that there used to be an alternative ruleset in wich instead of getting a companion celestial steed the paladin would get an artifact weapon that would evolve in power with him, this weapon would be his sort of holy avenger, that said the weapon would be like an Intelligent weapon or so and would only work with him, other than that would be mundane.

[oradafu]

It doesn't seem revered if every paladin gets it. You're basically throwing away a lot of the flavor of the greatest quest to find the holy grail of weapons. It should be an achievement, not granted to you.

Almost everyone agrees that currently Paladins are situationally good compared to other melee. I think a way to give the class as a whole a boost would be to give them a special weapon. The Holy Avenger fits this bill. Additionally, since it would be "trained" as I described, it would be much more powerful on a pure Paladin than a multi-class Paladin. If it was just a weapon that was achieved via a quest, what would prevent a multi-class that just splashed one level of Paladin from getting the same benefit as a pure Paladin or a even a multi-class with 18 levels of Paladin.

Additionally, it's as Bozo brought up here:

+1 I'd love to see that, wich reminds me that there used to be an alternative ruleset in wich instead of getting a companion celestial steed the paladin would get an artifact weapon that would evolve in power with him, this weapon would be his sort of holy avenger, that said the weapon would be like an Intelligent weapon or so and would only work with him, other than that would be mundane.

It's been a while since I've really looked at the PnP versions of Paladin, but I seem to remember the Paladin's Steed was about 1/3 of the benefits that Paladins got. Since Steeds weren't introduced into DDO (and wisely I must say), the Paladin does need a boost somewhere.

I also seem to remember something similar about a Paladin getting a special weapon (whether or not it's the Holy Avenger I don't remember) instead of Steed sometimes.

Ive alot simpler answer. Make Tesyus an item you can keep if your paladin tithes the church 1,000,000 plat. When you go to turn in the quest have an option exist for paladins that says you have relclaimed the holy sword and proven yourself worthy of being our champion and wielding it.

The problem I think that this presents is that the Tesyus is a Great Sword. There are plenty of Paladins that prefer a different weapon, not just Sword and Board and TWF but also those that want a Falchion or even a Greataxe instead. Additionally, the Holy Avenger is suppose to be a Long Sword, I believe; and this also will cause a drawback to THF, Bastard sword and Khopesh specced Paladins (among others). So easiest thing to do, in my mind, would be to make the Holy Avenger the type of weapon that the player wants. That's why I suggested that there could/should be an AP cost for making the Holy Sword a Falchion, Khopesh, Maul, etc (I believe those are all examples of weapons not available with components).

[Musouka]

The Steed did nothing for DPS if you were in a dungeon crawl, which Dungeons and Dragons was based on.

I seriously believe you are underestimating the current paladin of the game.

They get great saves with added Charisma Mod, Lay on Hands, Remove Disease(sure not a great ability with the amount of items/pots you can get), Smite Evil, Disease and Fear Immune, Faith Ability, Increased AC and saves from Aura, Divine Light, Divine Might, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smite, not to mention the prestiges which 2 grant an edge against specific types of enemies.

EDIT: It seems like you just want something to give it more of an edge so that it will be at par with TOP DPS, which it should not be. TOP DPS should come from a Barbarian, namely due to their ability to have a massive amount of strength, and constitution.

[GoRinNoSho]

I think they should be fairly comparable due to their philosophical similarities (zealotry along one line or another). Emphasis on should.

Barbs have DR, trap saves, dodge, poison/disease saves to assist them countering the Pally's abilities mentioned.

Additionally they have a lot of parallels such as frenzy and sacrifice. From a points perspective, Pallies do have more buckets that need to be filled to be effective, but IMO they should be high tier DPS. Based on how they have been treated, I'm waiting towards the latter end of the TR chain to fit in Pally personally though.

[oradafu]

The Steed did nothing for DPS if you were in a dungeon crawl, which Dungeons and Dragons was based on.

I seriously believe you are underestimating the current paladin of the game.

They get great saves with added Charisma Mod, Lay on Hands, Remove Disease(sure not a great ability with the amount of items/pots you can get), Smite Evil, Disease and Fear Immune, Faith Ability, Increased AC and saves from Aura, Divine Light, Divine Might, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smite, not to mention the prestiges which 2 grant an edge against specific types of enemies.

EDIT: It seems like you just want something to give it more of an edge so that it will be at par with TOP DPS, which it should not be. TOP DPS should come from a Barbarian, namely due to their ability to have a massive amount of strength, and constitution.

First, I must say that if most of your PnP games consisted of mostly dungeon crawls, then I think you missed out on alot of fun. Traveling from one city to another and encountering variously villians was a nice counter to dungeon crawls. Bar brawls, tricking NPCs (and PCs) into "uncomfortable" situations and other such activities were always good ways to past the time on a weekend of PnP. Heck, the best "quests" I had in PnP involved no fighting at all, but solving mysterious. Granted, these were all usually made up by the DM, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who played PnP in such a way.

I agree that Paladins have some nice abilities, but there still leaves some want to the class. First, they are Feat and AP starved so there is little variety in the builds. Second, Paladins are granted an edge over two types of enemies through two of their Prestige classes, but you failed to mention that it's only one type of enemy per Prestige Class. My suggestion for an additional AP system for the Holy Avenger would alleviate both problems. It would give some customization to Paladin builds so they contain a bit more flavor for the player. Additionally, if you're concerned with the addition of Banes to the Holy Avenger, my suggestions were to keep it within the context of the Paladin: Undead, Abberation, and various Outsider Banes. So with a Construct for example, the Paladin could use the Holy Avenger which would be slightly better than the Holy Sword or switch to a weapon that deals better damage, such as Smiters.

As for being my wanting the Paladin to be the top DPS, that's not the case. I'd like to see a bit more "love" to the class and I thought this was a nice twist on an old idea: the Holy Avenger. Although my original post seemed to focus on DPS, it wouldn't be strict for DPS. I did mention tiers of Parry later in this thread. Also, the suggestions by Talias about Healing Amp, Devotion, limited protections to negative energy, extend the Paladin's aura, among other suggestions. Although I didn't directly say anything about such things, I think all of those are fine ideas.

I, also, wouldn't be opposed to the idea that adding something to the weapon would lock out other things. For example, if someone choose to add Axiomatic to their Holy Avenger, it could advance to True Law but lock out the addition of Holy and Good. Another example would be if Outsider Evil was added to the Holy Avenger, then Lawful Evil would be locked out and maybe even the other two banes I mentioned, Undead and Abberation.

BTW, this thread is nothing more than a springboard to maybe get the Devs to use the Artificer pet system in a way that they may not have thought about doing. It appears that the Devs are fine tuning the system with the Artificer and may expand it to Ranger companions or caster familiars. I thought I'd throw the idea out for another direction that this system could be used and within the current class system: Paladins and the missing Holy Avenger. As a few others stated already in this thread, this idea might not work for the Paladin but could work as a foundation for a new class.

[Musouka]

Barbs have DR, trap saves, dodge, poison/disease saves to assist them countering the Pally's abilities mentioned.

I seriously doubt that lists off enough to counter all of what I have listed. While Barbarians get disease saves, Paladins get immunity. While Barbs gets trap saves and poison saves, Paladin gets Divine Grace and aura for greater saves. While Barbs get DR, a slight amount, Paladins get Lay on Hands for a good chunk of healing, not mentioning sovereign host paladins with Unyielding. A barbarian gets 30 seconds of Uncanny Dodge, a Paladin gets aura for constant AC and saves.

So that does nothing to counter the Paladin abilities mentioned. A barbarian getting Rage and doing tons more DPS, that counters the Paladin's versatility mentioned.

[Musouka]

First, I must say that if most of your PnP games consisted of mostly dungeon crawls, then I think you missed out on alot of fun. Traveling from one city to another and encountering variously villians was a nice counter to dungeon crawls. Bar brawls, tricking NPCs (and PCs) into "uncomfortable" situations and other such activities were always good ways to past the time on a weekend of PnP. Heck, the best "quests" I had in PnP involved no fighting at all, but solving mysterious. Granted, these were all usually made up by the DM, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who played PnP in such a way.

Great ideas. I can see a Tavernkeep allowing you to be on your steed while in a brawl. I wasn't stating they were solely Dungeon Crawls, but there is more indoor activity than there is open world activity. So you're doing little to say that the Steed actually benefits DPS, therefor you have missing DPS that should be replaced with something else.

I agree that Paladins have some nice abilities, but there still leaves some want to the class. First, they are Feat and AP starved so there is little variety in the builds. Second, Paladins are granted an edge over two types of enemies through two of their Prestige classes, but you failed to mention that it's only one type of enemy per Prestige Class. My suggestion for an additional AP system for the Holy Avenger would alleviate both problems. It would give some customization to Paladin builds so they contain a bit more flavor for the player. Additionally, if you're concerned with the addition of Banes to the Holy Avenger, my suggestions were to keep it within the context of the Paladin: Undead, Abberation, and various Outsider Banes. So with a Construct for example, the Paladin could use the Holy Avenger which would be slightly better than the Holy Sword or switch to a weapon that deals better damage, such as Smiters.

I am curious. What other feats do you need on your paladin? Say you get the average 7 feats. Certain paladins are TWF, so that's 3 feats. Toughness is a great one so that is 4 feats. Power attack makes 5. That leaves 2 feats left over for customization. Improved critical is a good one, and then what? Weapon focus? Extra turning? If you're a DoS, then I could see you not having that extra feat for the requirement for the Prestige. If you're into THF, you can actually not take that line of feats and you have a ton of feats for customization, or you could be in the same boat if you DO take all THF feats. You're also not addressing how a Dog's enhancements can be respecced every 3 days. So you'd basically have a sword that you can recustomize over and over.

BTW, this thread is nothing more than a springboard to maybe get the Devs to use the Artificer pet system in a way that they may not have thought about doing. It appears that the Devs are fine tuning the system with the Artificer and may expand it to Ranger companions or caster familiars. I thought I'd throw the idea out for another direction that this system could be used and within the current class system: Paladins and the missing Holy Avenger. As a few others stated already in this thread, this idea might not work for the Paladin but could work as a foundation for a new class.

I also didn't mention the extra damage they do from their capstone. I still cannot see where the Paladin needs anymore help?

[Talias006]

It doesn't seem revered if every paladin gets it. You're basically throwing away a lot of the flavor of the greatest quest to find the holy grail of weapons. It should be an achievement, not granted to you.

/not signed

I believe there's a misconception found here.
In any static group that has a Paladin, there is usually found a way for the DM to grant the Paladin a way to obtain their Holy Avenger.
Mind you this is on a far smaller scale than an MMO, and that's where it has to make the jump to being a separate enhance line.

If you reduced the AP per level of Paladin to 1 until level 8-10 and 2 AP per level from then on, your preferred Gods-gifted weapon would then not be on par with an excellent DPS class until later on in that characters life.
Would this not assuage the pure DPS crowd into allowing such a weapon to be wielded by the chosen warrior of the gods?

I can already think of ways to keep it growing slowly, from initial enhancements costing 4 AP so you really wouldn't be able to grow it until you could cast spells.
Or decreasing the benefits to just stacking pluses to attack, or damage, or other bonuses starting at 1 AP and cumulatively increasing in AP cost and relative power.

Ive alot simpler answer. Make Tesyus an item you can keep if your paladin tithes the church 1,000,000 plat. When you go to turn in the quest have an option exist for paladins that says you have relclaimed the holy sword and proven yourself worthy of being our champion and wielding it.

I think that acquiring Tesyus would be an awesome idea. and that after stopping in the Sovereign Host you could then unlock your own version of the mighty sword that the church would save for you.
And maybe when you pick it up it transmutes into the weapon type of your choice, like at level up when you choose a feat, but this time choose a weapon form instead.

[Musouka]

You're right about DMing and including it for the Paladin, or at least presenting the path to find it. However, it is still a Longsword. I do DM, and I know how much Paladins like that sword. It is a smaller scale than an MMO, but even in a single campaign, there IS only ONE Holy Avenger. This implies rarity. You're basically making something, that is supposed to be rare, granted to EVERY Paladin. Then you're giving it enhancements that are typically reserved as racial bonuses.

I think that acquiring Tesyus would be an awesome idea. and that after stopping in the Sovereign Host you could then unlock your own version of the mighty sword that the church would save for you.
And maybe when you pick it up it transmutes into the weapon type of your choice, like at level up when you choose a feat, but this time choose a weapon form instead.

That's where I see the problem. You're allowing what Canonly is a longsword be whatever weapon. I seriously doubt this will happen, because of the crafting systems already employed in the game. Cannith Crafting, Greensteel Crafting, and now Alchemical Crafting.

If you want an awesome weapon, utilize those.

[Uska]

Like parts of the idea except sword source it shouldn't come easy as just to use the spell a quest of some sort should be involved

[grgurius]

I'm really hoping for a /read by a dev for this thread.

And few thoughts on some points raised in this thread:

Rarity, there can be only one, we are talking about a MMO here, in any pnp game i run there can only be one artifact but different rules apply here. Imagine a game with only one sword of shadows, only one litany of the dead, only one marilith chain, think you get my point.

Weapon type, this one depends on your point of view, i allowed for the holy avenger to be any kind of weapon, but it was not a granted weapon, it was a weapon that evolved with the player. Role playing reason was that through paladins faith and devotion his weapon transformed. It all depends how you interpret the rules, as laws of physics set in stone, or more like guide lines.

[Gleep_Wurp]

Since the Holy Avenger is probably the most sought after weapon for Paladins (and only for Paladins), I think I found a nice twist on the weapon that might work in the game.

With addition of Artificer, the Artificer has a pet that can level up with him. As the Artificer levels up, he can "customize" his pet with Homunculus Enhancements. What if the general system that levels the Artificer were transferred to the Holy Avenger for the Paladin?

As a Paladin levels up, he can customize his Holy Avenger with Holy Avenger Enhancements. Just like the Artificer, the APs will be separate from the Paladin's personal APs. Some enhancements could be extra damage: Holy, True Law, Undead Bane, Evil Outsider Bane, Lawful Outsider Bane. Maybe at higher levels Banishing and Disruption can be added to the Holy Avenger.

So where does the Holy Avenger come from? Why not just keep it with the Holy Sword spell where the Paladin must summon it? Everything else about the Holy Sword will stay the same. The Holy Sword can still be given to others, but the Holy Avenger properties drop from the weapon, unless it's another Paladin and it will only contain the Holy Avenger properties of the Paladin who weilds it.

Now there might be a problem with the Paladin not gaining the spell until level 14, so maybe the "training" of the Holy Avenger doesn't happen until level 14.

Well, I'm just tossing this idea out there. Not sure if anyone will like it or not.

Edit: I forgot to add about problem with the lack of weapons that one can select with the Holy Sword spell. I figured with the Enhancements for the Holy Avenger, APs could be spent to make the weapon of their choice. For example, since there is no Falchion components, there will be an Enhancement that will turn the Great Sword component into a Falchion.

Edit 2: It also occurred to me that if my suggestion were to be implemented, the Holy Avenger effect on the Holy Sword should also only affect the main-hand. That way if TWF Paladins were to use two Holy Sword, only the main hand would be granted the Holy Avenger status, while the off-hand would just be a regular Holy Sword.

Edit 3: Corrected text about the Holy Spell being level 4, so Paladins don't get it until level 14. Grrr, typos.

im thinking you dont know what the holy avenger was.and im not talking about the nwn version or d20 you can look up

[Musouka]

Rarity, there can be only one, we are talking about a MMO here, in any pnp game i run there can only be one artifact but different rules apply here. Imagine a game with only one sword of shadows, only one litany of the dead, only one marilith chain, think you get my point.

Weapon type, this one depends on your point of view, i allowed for the holy avenger to be any kind of weapon, but it was not a granted weapon, it was a weapon that evolved with the player. Role playing reason was that through paladins faith and devotion his weapon transformed. It all depends how you interpret the rules, as laws of physics set in stone, or more like guide lines.

I also commented in agreement to this being an MMO, so a pnp campaign is a MUCH smaller scale. Not everyone has an SoS, or a Litany. Even still, they are RARE.

The weapon does already have a ruleset to evolve with the player. There is a Dispelling effect that is actually effected by the Paladin's level.

Guide lines are one thing, but granting it to every paladin and having it based on its own enhancements is another. Use the guidelines and make the weapon, but give it abilities that do get better with level of paladin. Put the weapon in a raid or quest so that it remains rare, and bound to character much like the Mad Lute is for Bards. Sure the Mad Lute is BTC on equip, which I wouldn't mind either.

Don't just grant this weapon to Paladins, make them earn it. They just gave a nice Epic Weapon to Humans, Epic Chimera's Fang. They can make a nice weapon for Paladins.

[grgurius]

I also commented in agreement to this being an MMO, so a pnp campaign is a MUCH smaller scale. Not everyone has an SoS, or a Litany. Even still, they are RARE.

The weapon does already have a ruleset to evolve with the player. There is a Dispelling effect that is actually effected by the Paladin's level.

Guide lines are one thing, but granting it to every paladin and having it based on its own enhancements is another. Use the guidelines and make the weapon, but give it abilities that do get better with level of paladin. Put the weapon in a raid or quest so that it remains rare, and bound to character much like the Mad Lute is for Bards. Sure the Mad Lute is BTC on equip, which I wouldn't mind either.

Don't just grant this weapon to Paladins, make them earn it. They just gave a nice Epic Weapon to Humans, Epic Chimera's Fang. They can make a nice weapon for Paladins.

Think i can agree with some rarity, Holy Avenger from lvl 1 for every paladin seams like a bad idea, even lvl 14 seams to soon, but i like the customization part of the OP.

So it should prolly be a high lvl raid loot, once acquired it unlocks the AP part of the idea. Maybe even earning those APs by doing special deeds, like certain optionals in some quests, or something simpler, by completing high lvl raids and quests.

[Calebro]

I really like this concept. 40 AP for a capped Paladin to use on an Holy Avenger's properties.

Introduce a solo only quest. The quest's level varies, always becoming equivalent to an elite quest for your level +1. So if you're level one, this quest opens as a level two quest would on elite. If you're level 9, this quest opens as a level ten quest would on elite.
XP for this quest should be decent, but not great, making it worth it for other classes to run as well.
At the end of this quest, you have the option to take one of two Holy Avengers.

Holy Avenger: weapon type Longsword
Exclusive
Binds to character on acquire
Damage profile: 1d8, crit 19-20 x2 (in other words, a simple longsword) (and also create a simple Greatsword version)
In the hands of a Paladin the true power of this sword comes out, becoming an extension of the Paladin's faith.

Possible enhancement lines:

Enhancement Bonus:
+1, level 1, 1 ap
+2, level 4, 1 ap, requires +1
+3, level 7, 1 ap, requires +2
+4, level 10, 1 ap, requires +3
+5, level 14, 1 ap, requires +4
+6, level 18, 2 ap, requires +5
+7, level 20, 2 ap, requires +6

Metal type enhancements:
Flametouched Iron, level 1, 1 ap
Cold Iron, level 4, 1 ap, requires Flametouched Iron
Byeshk, level 8, 1 ap, requires Cold Iron
Silver, level 12, 1 ap, requires Byeshk
Adamantine, level 16, 2 ap, requires Silver

Damage enhancements:
True Law, level 1, 2 ap, locks out Pure Good
Pure Good, level 2, 2 ap, locks out True Law
Elemental Touch, level 3, 1 ap, each element locks out all others, so only a single element can be placed on an Holy Avenger
Axiomatic, level 4, 1 ap, locks out Holy
Holy, level 6, 1 ap, locks out Axiomatic
Element, level 8, 2 ap, requires and replaces Elemental Touch
Axiomatic Burst, level 10, 1 ap, requires and replaces Axiomatic
Holy Burst, level 12, 2 ap, requires and replaces Holy
Elemental Burst, level 16, 2 ap, requires and replaces Elemental
Absolute Law, level 18, 2 ap, requires and replaces Axiomatic Burst
Absolute Good, level 20, 2 ap, requires and replaces Holy Burst

Miscellaneous enhancements for Ghost Touch, Tactics, etc.
A line for Parrying, Greater, Superior, etc.
The possibilities are almost endless here.
These are for customization purposes.
Exclude the Power Five for balance purposes, and exclude some things such as Deception, sneak attack bonuses, etc, for flavor purposes.

Maybe have a critical enhancement line to increase the critical threat to 18-20, or the critical multiplier to x3. Each of these choices locks out the other.

So hypothetically, a capped pure Paladin could have a +7 Holy Avenger, which is essentially metalline, and could have True Law (or pure good), Absolute Good (or absolute law) and an Elemental Burst of his choice.
That would use 27 of his 40 ap, leaving 13 left for customization purposes within the miscellaneous areas. (these numbers are obviously open to change)

This would make it so that a 12 Paladin / 8 xXx would still find his Holy Avenger useful, but probably not better than Greensteel except for situationally.
An 18 Paladin / 2 xXx would find his Holy Avenger quite useful, without being quite as good as a pure Paladin's.

[oradafu]

Okay, without going point by point, I'll try to answer some of the concerns.

Lack of a Steed shouldn't increase DPS - Since the game is pretty much DPS, some extra DPS doesn't hurt. However, since Rangers didn't get their Companions in DDO, my understanding was that Rangers received both ranged and TWF feats, which usually aren't both given to Rangers. Now I might be wrong since it's been a while since I've played PnP, but this was my understanding. If this is true, how is what I'm proposing much different?

Feats - When you say what other feats do Paladins need, I think you kind of answered one of the complaints people have about Paladins: currently they are very much cookie cutter. I'll answer you with some feats a Paladin could choose though that you didn't mention (although this is going off-topic a bit). Extend is nice for the self-buffs that Paladins cast so recasting in fights is at least minimized. Eschew Materials to give more room in the inventory. Any of the Tactical feats, especially Improve Sunder since Fort has been increased on raid bosses. The Shield Mastery line and Improved Shield Bash for the DoS. Skill Focus: UMD might be something that someone wants.

Enhancement resets - If swapping the Enhancements every 3 days is seen as too overpowered (but not for Arti's dogs?), then I'm sure the Devs would extend the number of days. Or they might require a turn-in of some item before it can happen, similar to the Feat exchange. Or maybe they might go the extreme measure of not allowing any changes at all. I'm really not seeing where this is that big of an issue because it will be adjusted as seen fit.

Canon deems that the Holy Avenger must only be a Long Sword - Drow are evil. Halflings shouldn't be able to use Greataxes. Player's footies should be in Goblin's butties. There's a bunch of things that should and shouldn't happen in DDO because of canon or source materials... But since the game is a MMO and not tabletop, some things are changed. Also there is the whole "house rules" that Turbine gets to decide what they like and don't. Also if (from what I understand) the intention of the Devs was to create the Holy Avenger as THE Paladin weapon that paladins will unlock the weapon as they gain levels, I think allowing Players to pick the type of weapon (or at least bladed weapon) of their choice. Why saddle THF paladins, Khopesh paladins, scimitar paladins etc with a weapon that they don't want or will not use? If you don't like it, just pretend that Paladin was duped into getting a false (and weaker) Holy Avenger, just like I pretend that it's gremlins inside the Cannith crafting machines.

The Holy Avenger must be rare because it's one of a kind - Hmmm... Shouldn't most named items in the game be one-of-a-kind? Again, since this is a MMO and not tabletop, the game shouldn't be making one of a kind named weapons for people. Again, I don't really see this argument being that big of a deal for a MMO.

Not everything's going to be perfect; and even if it were perfect, it won't last long.

[oradafu]

I really like this concept. 40 AP for a capped Paladin to use on an Holy Avenger's properties.

Yes, you pretty much covered alot of what I envision for the Holy Avenger. The only thing I would really disagree with is keeping the Holy Avenger as a Long Sword. I would put an AP cost to changing the weapon to a different type though, such as it will cost 5 AP (which would be like 12% of 40 AP). (Of course, this is something that is entirely in the hands of the Devs on how they will introduce the Holy Avenger.)

[grgurius]

Btw, Maj did mention that one of the best items is coming in U12, could it be?

[Calebro]

Yes, you pretty much covered alot of what I envision for the Holy Avenger. The only thing I would really disagree with is keeping the Holy Avenger as a Long Sword. I would put an AP cost to changing the weapon to a different type though, such as it will cost 5 AP (which would be like 12% of 40 AP). (Of course, this is something that is entirely in the hands of the Devs on how they will introduce the Holy Avenger.)

Maybe have a critical enhancement line to increase the critical threat to 18-20, or the critical multiplier to x3. Each of these choices locks out the other.

There's your weapon change. You can make your longsword an effective scimitar or khopesh, your choice. You can make your greatsword and effective Falchion or... well, there isn't a TH version for the other. But you get my point.

[oradafu]

im thinking you dont know what the holy avenger was.and im not talking about the nwn version or d20 you can look up

Thank you. I try to show my ignorance after often as I can.

Btw, Maj did mention that one of the best items is coming in U12, could it be?

As I posted in his thread, the "best item ever" better be a Runearm called Green Eggs and Ham that alternately fires kobolds and halflings at mobs.