Holy Avenger (with a twist) for Paladins

[oradafu]

Since the Holy Avenger is probably the most sought after weapon for Paladins (and only for Paladins), I think I found a nice twist on the weapon that might work in the game.

With addition of Artificer, the Artificer has a pet that can level up with him. As the Artificer levels up, he can "customize" his pet with Homunculus Enhancements. What if the general system that levels the Artificer were transferred to the Holy Avenger for the Paladin?

As a Paladin levels up, he can customize his Holy Avenger with Holy Avenger Enhancements. Just like the Artificer, the APs will be separate from the Paladin's personal APs. Some enhancements could be extra damage: Holy, True Law, Undead Bane, Evil Outsider Bane, Lawful Outsider Bane. Maybe at higher levels Banishing and Disruption can be added to the Holy Avenger.

So where does the Holy Avenger come from? Why not just keep it with the Holy Sword spell where the Paladin must summon it? Everything else about the Holy Sword will stay the same. The Holy Sword can still be given to others, but the Holy Avenger properties drop from the weapon, unless it's another Paladin and it will only contain the Holy Avenger properties of the Paladin who weilds it.

Now there might be a problem with the Paladin not gaining the spell until level 14, so maybe the "training" of the Holy Avenger doesn't happen until level 14.

Well, I'm just tossing this idea out there. Not sure if anyone will like it or not.

Edit: I forgot to add about problem with the lack of weapons that one can select with the Holy Sword spell. I figured with the Enhancements for the Holy Avenger, APs could be spent to make the weapon of their choice. For example, since there is no Falchion components, there will be an Enhancement that will turn the Great Sword component into a Falchion.

Edit 2: It also occurred to me that if my suggestion were to be implemented, the Holy Avenger effect on the Holy Sword should also only affect the main-hand. That way if TWF Paladins were to use two Holy Sword, only the main hand would be granted the Holy Avenger status, while the off-hand would just be a regular Holy Sword.

Edit 3: Corrected text about the Holy Spell being level 4, so Paladins don't get it until level 14. Grrr, typos.

[AnYtHiNg23]

The Holy Avenger is on the "to do" list, nothing has been said about it for a while tho.

[oradafu]

The Holy Avenger is on the "to do" list, nothing has been said about it for a while tho.

Prestige Classes are on the "to do" list. Just because it's on the list, it doesn't mean it's actively being worked on. Thus, my musings on maybe a system in which the Holy Avenger could be introduced into the game.

[R0cksteady]

Paladins are AP starved AND need DPS.

I don't think they should have to spend more AP on it. I think the effects should be added via spell components when casting holy sword.

[R0cksteady]

Or better yet, a new spell. So they can be added to any weapon, like an epic SoS.

[Hobgoblin]

Paladins are AP starved AND need DPS.

I don't think they should have to spend more AP on it. I think the effects should be added via spell components when casting holy sword.

the op is talking about a seperate line of ap that can only be used on holy sword, just like the arti dogs have there own line

hob

[countfitz]

Sounds like a 3.0 samurai, but instead the base class was a fighter w/o heavy armor prof., or soulknife, which would kick ass. IMO, we should build a new class around the idea.

[oradafu]

Paladins are AP starved AND need DPS.

I don't think they should have to spend more AP on it. I think the effects should be added via spell components when casting holy sword.

I'm talking about a different set of APs, similar to the Artificer has a separate set of APs for advancing their pets. If you haven't seen how the Artificer is set up, the Artificer gets the usual AP at each rank. Additionally, the Artificer would get additional APs that can only be used on their pet. Neither the Artificer's AP or the pet's AP can be used on anything but their own enhancement.

My idea would take the same structure and move it to the Holy Avenger. A Paladin would get the usual AP for their own enhancement, but also an additional set of AP that could only be used to advance their Holy Avenger. The Paladin would continue to be AP starved for their own enhancement, but they would get a boost by having a customized Holy Avenger.

[Talias006]

I like the general premise of your Holy Avenger.

Maybe instead of making it wholly unavailable until you can cast spells, let it build slowly.
Say, 1 AP per Paladin level, and have the first iteration of abilities cost the same as the dogs at 2 AP.
This would enable a willingness to put more than 3/6/etc levels into Paladin.

Also, have it only apply to your main hand weapon if you're a TWF type.
If the wielded weapon shares abilities with the Holy Avenger enhancements, such as if you choose Holy additive for your Holy Avenger level up and you pick up or already have a Holy weapon, the two would only co-exist and not stack.
This way, it stays in continuity with the Holy Avenger sword from PnP, being that in the hands of anyone but a Paladin, it's just a normal +X whatever.

I wouldn't even allow the enhancements to be shared with another Paladin in the party.
Doing this would allow Paladins who stay pure to be able to wield a truly worthy weapon, and not just your standard boss beater.

You would need many differing separate enhancements and upgrades to those enhancements like the artificer dogs have, to allow a multitude of play-style decisions and/or situational modifiers.

[oradafu]

I like the general premise of your Holy Avenger.

Maybe instead of making it wholly unavailable until you can cast spells, let it build slowly.
Say, 1 AP per Paladin level, and have the first iteration of abilities cost the same as the dogs at 2 AP.
This would enable a willingness to put more than 3/6/etc levels into Paladin.

Also, have it only apply to your main hand weapon if you're a TWF type.
If the wielded weapon shares abilities with the Holy Avenger enhancements, such as if you choose Holy additive for your Holy Avenger level up and you pick up or already have a Holy weapon, the two would only co-exist and not stack.
This way, it stays in continuity with the Holy Avenger sword from PnP, being that in the hands of anyone but a Paladin, it's just a normal +X whatever.

I wouldn't even allow the enhancements to be shared with another Paladin in the party.
Doing this would allow Paladins who stay pure to be able to wield a truly worthy weapon, and not just your standard boss beater.

You would need many differing separate enhancements and upgrades to those enhancements like the artificer dogs have, to allow a multitude of play-style decisions and/or situational modifiers.

I agree with alot of what you've written. It looks like I added the main-hand edit in the original post about the same time you wrote your post. So I agree with you about there only being one Holy Avenger at a time.

When I mention the Holy Sword being given to another paladin, I didn't mean that the original owner of the Holy Sword past his Holy Avenger enhancements to the next paladin, but the second paladin would be using their Holy Avenger enhancements. For example Paladin1 casts Holy Sword and gives Holy Sword to Paladin2, Paladin2 would only have the Holy Avenger enhancements from Paladin2, since they are personal enhancements that cannot be passed to one another. Someone might be thinking, why would this happen? Well, maybe Paladin2 forgot his components or memorize his spell or the Holy Sword broke (high Fort+HP can do that!), so Paladin1 gave his Holy Sword to Paladin2 since he has more components in his inventory. ... Well, whatever... It was just to point out that the Holy Sword can still be past to other players, but the Holy Avenger enhancements stay with the Paladin or a Paladin can use the Enhancements on someone else's Holy Sword if they are holding the weapon.

I also agree about multiple Enhancements being available for different playing styles, etc. But I would also keep it within the Paladin's specialty. For example, I can see tiers of Undead, Aberration, Chaotic Outsider, Lawful Outsider and Evil Outsider banes, but not Construct bane. Also, I can see Axiomatic, Holy, Good and True Law damage, but not Anarchic or Evil. There other things also that could be added: Parry, Greater Parry or Superior Parry come to mind.

[Talias006]

Ah! Now I see the reasons for being able to hand to a fellow Paladin your Holy Sword.
I hadn't thought of that.

And yes, by the very nature of a Paladin, enhancements allowing Chaos and Evil damage modifiers should not be offered at all.

Parrying is a good one, as is Healing Amp, something that mimics Devotion, enhancing or extending the Aura of Good beyond the norm.
Also perhaps some limited form of energy protection; be it negative, chaotic, or elemental in nature.
Just for starters...

[NaturalHazard]

the op is talking about a seperate line of ap that can only be used on holy sword, just like the arti dogs have there own line

hob

If they do this they have to make the paladin enhancements cheaper they are starved enough as it is.

[oradafu]

If they do this they have to make the paladin enhancements cheaper they are starved enough as it is.

I'll state this again, I'm modelling this after the Artificer and their pet. For those unfamiliar with the AP system for the Artificer, I'll explain it. Artificers get the 4 AP each level (just like all classes) and their pet gets 2 AP every level. So a capped Artificer will have 80 AP (just like all classes) while their pet gets 40 AP for the pet's enhancements. They are two separate types of APs: one for the class and one for the pet.

I am talking about transferring this to the Paladin so that the Paladin will continue to have 80 AP at cap, but also (if using the Artificer pet template) 40 AP for enhancements for the Holy Avenger. The Paladin will continue to be AP (and feat) starved, but that will have nothing to do with the Holy Avenger. The Holy Avenger will not be taking a single AP from the Paladin's enhancement because the Holy Avenger will have its own AP.

[jaegarnel]

I'm not sure about this.


On paper, this is a very interesting idea, however Holy Sword is a level 4 spells, which means paladins need to be level 14 before casting it.

Having to wait until level 14 to get their holy avenger is too long. I say, make it a new lvl 1 spell or something automatically granted to every paladin at first level like arti pets.

Then you can change the holy sword spell to be a holy avenger boost.


Gameplay-wise this is probably a good idea since paladins definitely need some kind of boost, and having a scalable weapon would be a nice way to do so. It would also rebalance THF and TWF for paladins, since THF would get a bigger boost out of a single vry powerful weapon.


OTOH, if you make the holy avenger too powerful, paladins would be able to skip doing all the grinding other melees are forced to do for getting good weapons, ot really a good idea.

Also, lore-wise an holy avenger is supposed to be something only awarded to the most worthy of paladins, it's supposed to be rare, making it available to every pally would cheapen it imo.

[oradafu]

I'm not sure about this.


On paper, this is a very interesting idea, however Holy Sword is a level 4 spells, which means paladins need to be level 14 before casting it.

Having to wait until level 14 to get their holy avenger is too long. I say, make it a new lvl 1 spell or something automatically granted to every paladin at first level like arti pets.

Then you can change the holy sword spell to be a holy avenger boost.


Gameplay-wise this is probably a good idea since paladins definitely need some kind of boost, and having a scalable weapon would be a nice way to do so. It would also rebalance THF and TWF for paladins, since THF would get a bigger boost out of a single vry powerful weapon.


OTOH, if you make the holy avenger too powerful, paladins would be able to skip doing all the grinding other melees are forced to do for getting good weapons, ot really a good idea.

Also, lore-wise an holy avenger is supposed to be something only awarded to the most worthy of paladins, it's supposed to be rare, making it available to every pally would cheapen it imo.

Thanks for pointing out the level error. Bad typo that's now corrected. The spell is level 4, the paladin would be level 14...grrr...

Yes, that is why I pointed out that it might be a problem in my original post. I know my idea isn't exactly perfect, so there are kinks in it. Balancing for the TWF and THF could probably be corrected with the AP costs for the Holy Avenger.

Also, I agree that giving too much to stuff to the Holy Avenger will seem a bit unbalanced to other classes that need to grind for weapons. However, the AP cost would be similar to the Artificer pets, about 2 AP a tier. So a Greater Bane would be 6 AP out of the 40 AP at cap. Of course, the Devs always have an option of dropping the number of AP per level or raising the cost of some enhancements, the max AP could be 20 or the enhancements could cost 2-5 AP.

I can see lore-wise that the rarity of the Holy Avenger should be. But I also see some need to boost the Paladin, since they are AP and Feat starved...and situationally useful, currently in-game.

Edit: poor math mistake corrected and expanded...my theoretical AP was accidently halved when I wrote it.

[RTN]

The last time there was any official word on a Holy Avenger, it was along lines somewhat like this. It was several years ago, but Eladrin mentioned something about a Holy Avenger requiring a quest to acquire and then it leveling up with your pally. Now that they have the tech installed for the Arti dogs, hopefully they can finally get this going.

[Snapdragoon]

cool concept, i think it would be awsome to see the holy avenger be something along the Arti dog line, granted at creation (or soon there after) and as you level customized and improved upon.

i think it would add some much needed love to the paladin class ^_^

[harold2560]

Excellent concept!

+1 for you

[Musouka]

It doesn't seem revered if every paladin gets it. You're basically throwing away a lot of the flavor of the greatest quest to find the holy grail of weapons. It should be an achievement, not granted to you.

/not signed

[Vanquishedfo]

Ive alot simpler answer. Make Tesyus an item you can keep if your paladin tithes the church 1,000,000 plat. When you go to turn in the quest have an option exist for paladins that says you have relclaimed the holy sword and proven yourself worthy of being our champion and wielding it.