Suggestion for nerfing SP pots to restore some balance.

[Synnestar35791]

Disagree completely, Potion users - it's their choice not yours, you don't like that, you picked the wrong game, stands to reason a caster would devise a way to restore spell ability in a real life way anyway.

The restrictions are already ridiculously overly exaggerated by substantial amounts.

I play both melee & casting & I H A T E the cool-downs totally-to the point if I was using these skills in real life - I'd devise a by-pass to the "cool-downs" - I think it's ridiculous that a cool-down even got instituted. Reloading a fire-arm is one thing, a caster with spell components & a book of spells only needs to recite the incantation for the spell to be effective. the stronger the intellectuality of the caster should be the deciding factor to the potency of the spell...

Potion restrictions to restrict Potions designed to restore an already inflated restriction is ridiculous IMO....

[Viisari]

I play both melee & casting & I H A T E the cool-downs totally-to the point if I was using these skills in real life - I'd devise a by-pass to the "cool-downs" - I think it's ridiculous that a cool-down even got instituted. Reloading a fire-arm is one thing, a caster with spell components & a book of spells only needs to recite the incantation for the spell to be effective. the stronger the intellectuality of the caster should be the deciding factor to the potency of the spell...

You do realize that even in P&P you can only perform a limited amount of actions in a certain timeframe? In DDO this shows up as cooldowns and it's perfectly reasonable to have them.

Though I guess being able to spam wail of the banshee all the time would be fun. And stupid.

Brings to mind improved alacrity from BG2 though, cast a time stop and improved alacrity and then proceed to spam death all over the place

[Aaxeyu]

Your mechanic lowers the chance of completing an elite ToD dramatically. The whole run has to be flawless.

Even if you drink SP pots, it's still not an auto-win.

SP potions may not be auto-win, but if they dramatically increases the chance of completing a raid it's a good sign that they are overpowered and that the raid is pretty much balanced around using them.

If a raid is too hard for your group then the solution should be more practice, not a ton of consumables. People should not take completion for granted when running a hard quest.
Difficulity should not be measured by how many pots it takes to complete.

[Dendrix]

As long as HP restoring potions are given the exact same restrictions I am all for this. Silver Flame Pots are way more broken - they only cost plat.

30 sec cooldown between potions on normal up to 5 mins on epic.

And obviously the same on wands and scrolls.

[Aaxeyu]

As long as HP restoring potions are given the exact same restrictions I am all for this. Silver Flame Pots are way more broken - they only cost plat.

30 sec cooldown between potions on normal up to 5 mins on epic.

And obviously the same on wands and scrolls.

HP pots, wands and scroll are not as powerful as sp pots and should therefor obviosuly not have the same restrictions.

[Forzah]

As long as HP restoring potions are given the exact same restrictions I am all for this. Silver Flame Pots are way more broken - they only cost plat.

30 sec cooldown between potions on normal up to 5 mins on epic.

And obviously the same on wands and scrolls.

SF pots give you -50% movement and -10 to all stats but con. Moreover, you can do a lot more with mana potions than with HP.

SP potions may not be auto-win, but if they dramatically increases the chance of completing a raid it's a good sign that they are overpowered and that the raid is pretty much balanced around using them.

If a raid is too hard for your group then the solution should be more practice, not a ton of consumables. People should not take completion for granted when running a hard quest.
Difficulity should not be measured by how many pots it takes to complete. .

I'm more for limiting the number of mana potions you can use than introducing cooldowns then. If you drink a pot and only get 100 mana back, you're basically screwed.

[mystafyi]

Melee does have a stamina bar. Its the blue bar right underneath the healers red bar. When that goes dry, its a matter of a small amount of time before the melee can stop swinging their fancy ax.

Chai, you crack me up with your blunt insight

[BoBo2020]

Stop.
Just stop.
SP pots don't ruin the game.
Nerf threads ruin the game.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

What is there to think? Waiting three minutes for using a potion is just too harsh... especially in ToD where you have to act quickly if something goes wrong. Your mechanic lowers the chance of completing an elite ToD dramatically. The whole run has to be flawless. That's really not preferable for one of the hardest raids in this game. For one, I think it's a lot of fun to recover a run that is going bad, even though it costs a lot of pots; it gives a lot of satisfaction.

Moreover, you're also trying to fix the wrong thing. SP pots are not the cause of balance problems in this game; it's the power of some spells. SP pots are hardly ever used anyway... only if there is real trouble. I think it's a good last recourse.

Yea, 'cause god knows that if you can actually fail "one of the hardest quests in the game" with a pick up group, the game is going to be so horrible.

If SP potions weren't a problem, giving casters infinite SP wouldn't really be a problem either. But since it is, they are.

"I think it's a good last recourse"
Yea, people rarely (if ever) fail quests, and if they are about to, just drink a pot or two and you're golden. 100% completion rate for anyone, for the win!

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Solution: Permadeath server with no mana potions.

Designed for people that want to investing time and energy only to fail and enjoy the experience.

Different playstyle guys. If you want the challenge then start lfm's stating clearly that it's a "dry" (casters are not to drink any mana pots) run.

I ask again: Why do I have to cripple myself in order to find a challange? I don't see people shooting themselves in the leg in order to have more of a challange running.

[Vanquishedfo]

You can take my pots when you pry them from my cold undead fingers. Hell lets roll back to the pnp spell slot days... and while where at it lets give barbs thier no magic item at all restriction, the monks and paladins thier humilty and only allowed to carry what they own no access to banks, and 10% of all thier earnings go to the church. And rangers cant linger in the city.

Pots are just an aspect of DDO caster life. Casters exclude the mundanes from thier groups simply because they prefer to be in like minded company. I myself on my wiz wont team with anyone who thinks getting close to mobs is a good idea. It might be a need at times but not ever something anyone should want to do if they are sane in my wizards book. These crazy babarians charging into hoardes are just silly and best left to themselves.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

What is there to think? Waiting three minutes for using a potion is just too harsh... especially in ToD where you have to act quickly if something goes wrong. Your mechanic lowers the chance of completing an elite ToD dramatically. The whole run has to be flawless. That's really not preferable for one of the hardest raids in this game. For one, I think it's a lot of fun to recover a run that is going bad, even though it costs a lot of pots; it gives a lot of satisfaction.

Moreover, you're also trying to fix the wrong thing. SP pots are not the cause of balance problems in this game; it's the power of some spells. SP pots are hardly ever used anyway... only if there is real trouble. I think it's a good last recourse.

You keep using that example, and we've been telling you that is precisely the point. If something goes horribly wrong in ToD (or any quest), you are supposed to fail it. Pulling a victory off chugging mana pots is just nonsense. People need to learn that failure is often a good thing maybe it wasn't the right group, maybe it was lag, whatever the reason people shouldn't take failing a raid so personal.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

You can take my pots when you pry them from my cold undead fingers. Hell lets roll back to the pnp spell slot days... and while where at it lets give barbs thier no magic item at all restriction, the monks and paladins thier humilty and only allowed to carry what they own no access to banks, and 10% of all thier earnings go to the church. And rangers cant linger in the city.

Don't forget the strict leveling restrictions of a paladin and how loose and easy is to multiclass them in DDO. I once requested inclusion vow of poverty feat but that suggestion wasn't very popular, to put it mildly

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I think either some cooldown, id say ~1-2min would be fine. The OP suggestion is ok, i would personally suggests a timer and % nerf to efficiency

Pots used:

1st: no trouble
2nd: no trouble yet, but 1m cooldown
3rd: 1.0m cooldown, at 80% (overgulping penalty I)
4th: 1.5m cooldown, at 60% (overgulping pen II)
5th: 2.0m cooldown, at 50% (overgulping pen III)
6th: 2.5m cooldown, at 40% (overgulping pen III)
7th: 3.0m cooldown, at 30% (overgulping pen IV)
8 and on: 25%, 1d3% chance that you get stunned for 1d5 seconds. (mnemonic overkill)

Maybe, just maybe, gearing for max-spellpoins, and managing sp will be important again.

I play Sorcerers and Wizards mostly

And to make the Store ones more valuable, the trouble and cool downs start after the 3rd, not the second. Everybody wins.

[smatt]

Solution: Permadeath server with no mana potions.

Designed for people that want to investing time and energy only to fail and enjoy the experience.

Different playstyle guys. If you want the challenge then start lfm's stating clearly that it's a "dry" (casters are not to drink any mana pots) run.

Ha! There would be like 17 people on the server..... I can name 10 of them from right here on the forums... They would have a blast!

[BoBo2020]

Stop.
Just stop.
SP pots don't ruin the game.
Nerf threads ruin the game.

Neg rep? Classy.

Look, if you don't like sp pots, don't use them.

Play like a perma-deather. Set up your own rules and your own guilds. If you don't want others to use pots when pugging with you, set up your own melee-centric, support casters only!! LFM (good luck filling that btw). If you want your pug to fail because it has not passed your definition of elite then type "don't heal me, NO POTS!!!!" in party chat. I'm fine with that.

Demanding that others be nerfed so that everyone is compelled to play YOUR way, however, seems arrogant, inappropriately elitist and selfish.

I propose a new rule:
We already have rule #1 "Con is not a dump stat."
Rule #2 "Your loot is your loot."
I suggest rule #3 "Play your own character."

Actually, Rule #1 is "you don't talk about fight club"... but you get my point.

[protokon]

Only exceptions to this currently are elite ToD and the new raids on elite and epic. Everything else in the game is easily completed without any potions by a competent pug group.

Even those aren't the exception anymore. All 3 of them have been completed without pots, see achievements forums for more info.

Granted, your not going to see that kind of run by the masses, and I'm sure even that group won't be able to pull it off every single time for a few more attempts - but it's been proven that its possible.

[Ertay]

Brings to mind improved alacrity from BG2 though, cast a time stop and improved alacrity and then proceed to spam death all over the place

Thanks for this reference to what is probably the most awesome D&D game in existance (sorry devs). Play this if you want to see what a caster whithout cooldowns would look like.



Also, back to topic:

Any limitation that keeps the basic functioning of sp pots intact as they are now will mean that raids still are forced to completion even if you really should fail given the state of your group, i.e. imposing diminishing returns means people will just be expected to drink more, cooldowns will mean they will have to drink earlier. The only exception to that would probably be a per-quest (or raid only) maximum.

If this should be an option at all is debatable, the current state of healers having to carry the costs of this systems is not. This is what makes them uncomfortable and even if I don't play one it feels absolutely reasonable for them to be upset about it.

[Aashrym]

I'm all for making changes to SP pots. My solutions are more simplistic.

1) Timers -- The more SP to be returned the longer the timer. I do not see an issue with a 3 minute timer on a major because that means a player can still drink 1 major before that timer kicks in. A smaller timer on a lesser pot seems appropriate.

2) Lower Drop Rate -- The number of majors I see in quest rewards is obscene, IMO. And seriously? Does anyone really think the alternatives on those lists are the equivalent value of an SP pot? 4 vendor trash, 200 guild favor, or 1 major pot and the value has a definite discrepancy right there.

3) Mass Heal Scrolls -- I want to see some Mass Heal scrolls dropping in rewards lists. I never see those anywhere while I see major pots everywhere. This helps to help alleviate some of the changes with SP pots relating to healing. I already make liberal use of Heal scrolls and quite frankly this works better than buying stacks of SP pots (for all those healers complaining that the SP pots impact their healing ability you really should take a look at what you are spending on pots instead and then look at what scrolls cost which leads me to suspect that might simply be the excuse used to keep them as is for other reasons ). This should still be much much less than we see SP pots in end rewards.


One of the fundamental mechanics in this game is a limited number of spell points provided to blue bar classes based on class and that number of SP is limited based on class. Easy access to SP pots destroys that fundamental aspect of this game.

If a person needs to drink multiple SP pots and hit their bauble that run should have failed. Using scrolls and 1 major (timered) and 1 bauble is a lot of SP right there. If that doesn't get you your recovery then that turkey should be considered baked at that point. Raids fail and powering thru with potions is not an acceptable balancing factor for players.

[Helexax]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

Pots =/= class ability....

If you believe that i strongly suggest counseling to break your addiction o_O

edit~ On topic, i agree melee either needs to be buffed, or casters AND / OR their pots nerfed, not all 3, but certainly at least one. As it is melee are obsolete.