Suggestion for nerfing SP pots to restore some balance.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I hate the fact that raids seem to be balanced around drinking pots.

This.
By limiting the usage, odds are PUGs would be much more likely to succeed, after some balance changes being made to some raids, that is.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Also... If people grouped up only with players good at the game the new players will have a harder time learning because nobody would be willing to take them due to the cost involved. More so if it will now determine the success or failure of the actual quest/raid.

Proof in the pudding. Due to the need to fall back on mana in elite and epic content because of the new changes pugs are having a harder time getting anyone that heals willing to join them. Longer wait time between grouping = more time required to accomplish anything = less people grouping.

So, if we take it one step further using your theory. Wouldn't it be best for the game if everyone had infinite HP, and unlimited SP - that way everyone would always succeed in everything. = less time between grouping = less time required to accomplish anything = more people grouping.

[Chaos000]

By limiting SP potions, the devs could move away from X millions of hp bosses dealing x hundreds of damage per hit, and more into skill / finess / tactics path.

I'm all for limiting SP potions btw.

However, I would argue that the devs would need to make the changes to the bosses PRIOR to making the changes to mana potions or lots of players will get discouraged with the content and leave.

I don't think I'm alone in this. If I invest X amount of time I expect Y result for the time and resources invested. If the time spent results in nothing, it is unacceptable and there was no enjoyment to be gained from the experience.

Some people are all about the journey and smelling the roses and are happy irregardless of being able to get the chest at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, good for them. I'm part of the other player base and it would not be good to alienate them.

[Chaos000]

So, if we take it one step further using your theory. Wouldn't it be best for the game if everyone had infinite HP, and unlimited SP - that way everyone would always succeed in everything. = less time between grouping = less time required to accomplish anything = more people grouping.

Actually, when devs playtest their own content this is EXACTLY what they do. Unlimited self rez along with equipping sp pots to each character.

[Beethoven]

Heh, while nerfing casters might not be a good solution, it is ridiculous to claim that they aren't way better at pretty much everything than melees are ... The fortification changes in U11 made the gap even wider, melee dps was nerfed while caster dps remained unaffected.

The fortification change increased the gap between arcane and melee dps. The hitpoint and damage change didn't benefit casters a lot. You don't see a lot all-caster elite ToD, eV6, eDQ or other end-game raids.

Boss-mobs simply have too many HP for casters to take them down using damage spells without chugging pots. You could technically have them take turns dot'ing, but it would take forever since arcane dps is not /that/ much higher. Then there is healing to consider. Scroll healing is not a reliable way if Horoth hits you for 50+ damage a swing, Lailath lays into you with nine arms or Velah does 100+ damage with her wing buffet.

The way the game is currently played nerfing pots is hardly going to affect arcanes. Pretty much the only two places I sometimes go through pots on my arcane is kiting in EV6 (since between quickened reconstructs and keeping firewalls up to maintain aggro my SP eventually will run out) and LoB (at the part where we throw disintigrates at pillars). Both cases are voluntary. In eV6 I could simply opt to die once I am low on SP and let the second caster take over and I would not need to spam Disintegrates but take it a bit more slow.

However, nerfing pots would greatly affect things were you have healers spamming heals on a group of melees as they no longer could "buy" themselves a victory where they otherwise would fail.

[Viisari]

*snip*

Only really tested all casters in eChrono because I thought it would be hilarious. And it was, boss went down so fast compared to a melee party it wasn't even funny. I can see the same happening in eDQ2 easily, eVelah might be a bit more tricky though. Elite ToD has been done by palemasters before dots iirc and I could see that happening now too because of how shield mastery works now.

Increased hp is largely irrelevant because by the time a good caster has run out of SP he's done a lot more damage than a melee will during the entire fight, especially now with the increased fortifications. I kinda want to test it in eVelah actually, because melees have to run behind the rocks quite often. Casters can just keep dotting and the dps is constant, only reason I can see this failing is if bases drain too much SP from the group. Wing buffet damage is largely irrelevant to casters, grab one melee fvs so velah won't start spamming comet fall everywhere.

The reason you don't see many full caster groups because it's much faster to get a normal group, and with casters it's harder to know who's good and who's bad than it is with melees.

Though I have seen lots of caster only parties lately.

[mystafyi]

this thread is stupid. turbine makes money from one of their bestsellers, SP pots. does anyone really think they will cut the ability of folks to drink them non-stop? If anything turbine wants more pots drank and therefore sold in the store.
im done with this thread that is a nonstarter from the 1st word.

[patang01]

It seems that the general consensus is that melee toons have become the red-headed stepchildren around here, and casters no longer need to learn to manage SP if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

My suggestion is to make the pots progressively less effective within a quest. Perhaps something like:

1st pot used - no penalty
2nd pot used - only gives 95% of possible SP
3rd pot used - only gives 90% of possible SP
...
and so on. I think it would be reasonable to cap the deduction at a certain point as well, say 10 or more pots used only give 50%.

This is just a launching point for discussion, so the specific numbers are certainly up for debate.

Thoughts?

I have no problem playing 100 percent of all my toons, fighters, skirmishers and caster without needing to nerf someone elses addiction to SP pots.

In fact even as demanding as my spell casting can be sometimes I still don't really use that many pots. Some people will never learn how to household.

I refuse to do the new Elite shroud etc plus epics that have changed on any spell caster, especially my FvS since those are designed to use pots.

nerfing someone ability to substitute their poor gaming abilities with pots is like saying that each babar can only have 2 rages, fighters 2 fighter hastes and divines 10 extra heal scrolls etc.

It just doesn't make sense to put artificial barriers in the way because your perception of OP.

I've never had a problem getting into quests because I'm on a fighter or ranger. Nor am I ever excluded for playing a arti etc. Maybe the CC event is a little different because of the dumb nature of how the difficulty scales and self healing is almost a must, but other than that no fundamental mechanics have changed in any other quest except for a silly raise of HP and fort in some elite quests. But I doubt any caster would like to do a 12 man divine arcane in elite shroud - I've seen how much pots they had to waste to finish part 4 and 5 and I was glad that I was on my fighter.

[Splatterfart]

An idea like this should be implemented the day melees have a "Stamina Bar" implemented. Once the stamina bar goes empty you're no long able to swing your fancy axe.

A better solution? Make SP pots weaker, but you can purchase them at a vendor like cure potions.

I am pretty sure that you would absolutely scream the first time your raid healer went broke on SP because he had a 5 minute cooldown before his next potion was off timer. Be careful what you wish for.

[Vanquishedfo]

It seems that the general consensus is that melee toons have become the red-headed stepchildren around here, and casters no longer need to learn to manage SP if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

My suggestion is to make the pots progressively less effective within a quest. Perhaps something like:

1st pot used - no penalty
2nd pot used - only gives 95% of possible SP
3rd pot used - only gives 90% of possible SP
...
and so on. I think it would be reasonable to cap the deduction at a certain point as well, say 10 or more pots used only give 50%.

This is just a launching point for discussion, so the specific numbers are certainly up for debate.

Thoughts?

Yeah my thought is even less capped clerics like mine or any cleric in general will ever speak to you again in game if you mention you started a thread like this. Like healing pugs isnt bad enough a drain on resources now you want to make the already costly choice to do what I can to carry an entire worthless party through with my sheer power alone a crime to be punished?

Seriously put this idea of yours in your characters bio in game and see what happens to your warriors.

[Viisari]

An idea like this should be implemented the day melees have a "Stamina Bar" implemented. Once the stamina bar goes empty you're no long able to swing your fancy axe.

Pretty much every melee except monks run out of boosts, rages and clickies at some point which already makes them much weaker than they were initially. Now that it takes longer than 5 minutes to beat down an epic boss this actually has time to matter and I've observed it myself in eVoN6 for example, the initial dps melees can dish out is much, much higher than the dps near the end of the fight is because everyone has ran out of boosts.

This also applies in the new raids.

[R0cksteady]

An idea like this should be implemented the day melees have a "Stamina Bar" implemented. Once the stamina bar goes empty you're no long able to swing your fancy axe.

A better solution? Make SP pots weaker, but you can purchase them at a vendor like cure potions.

I am pretty sure that you would absolutely scream the first time your raid healer went broke on SP because he had a 5 minute cooldown before his next potion was off timer. Be careful what you wish for.

This would make sense. if not for the fact that melees do a lot less damage than casters and FvS already.

Melees SHOULD be able to last forever, to make up for their WEAK performance.

Casters can do higher DPS, instakill, crowd control, do a MUCH better job of self healing, they can buff.

Why should Melees, who can only do one thing, and not very well, (ok 2 things, they can do weak CC that might come in handy if the caster is terrible) get a stamina bar?


Not only give SP pots a minute cooldown, make them give you 4 con damage that can only be taken off via shrining. And make it stack.

[Ungood]

Yay, the weekly nerf pots thread.
No.

You beat me to it.

[Drekisen]

It seems that the general consensus is that melee toons have become the red-headed stepchildren around here, and casters no longer need to learn to manage SP if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

My suggestion is to make the pots progressively less effective within a quest. Perhaps something like:

1st pot used - no penalty
2nd pot used - only gives 95% of possible SP
3rd pot used - only gives 90% of possible SP
...
and so on. I think it would be reasonable to cap the deduction at a certain point as well, say 10 or more pots used only give 50%.

This is just a launching point for discussion, so the specific numbers are certainly up for debate.

Thoughts?

Sorry, but this is completely backwards, first they have to nerf the mobs enough in the game so it warrants SP pots not being used in certain situations....then they can nerf SP pots.

If anything at all they are ramping up the difficulty of mobs because they added in so many skills that we can use to weaken them or slowly just killing stuff off with echos of power and SLA's.

If your in a very well organized party or guild then you don't really have to resort to SP pots as much, but then that eliminates the casual crowd who contribute a significant amount to keeping this game going.

[dpadan17]

Not signed

I disagree with a needing of sp pots. Bought sp pots? Seriously no. So you want to have your $1.00 be actually worth .90 cents? No thank you. And as well with the new fortification deal, when you are close to completion, I won't think you would be complaining if a wiz/sorc/healer would chug a few to ensure your chances at some good loot. Btw I do not play a sp based toon at all I feel they should be powerful, sure they are a little too overpowered now compared to melee but still, needing sp lots is NOT the answer.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I approve of this change. However, I think we have different reasons - mine being that sp pots shouldn't be required for a completion, and that all of the updated raids should implement ansp regen mechanic somewhere between shroud and reaver's efficacy. Player skill and coordination should be far more important than how much resources you are willing to spend before giving up, and a quest with one 52 minute fight and no shrines = failquest.

How would people feel about removing all the shrines from shroud?

Both Lord of Blades and Master Artificer have some mana regen capabilities.

Removing all shrines from Shroud means we will be back to 2008 when most groups would not even bother to bring a caster: 1 divine, 1 bard, 10 tempests splashes.

[Forzah]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

Lol this makes no sense... if you're doing elite ToD for instance and **** hits the fan, you can't wait 3 minutes for a new potion.

[Malison]

This would hurt the game in general. You want to MORE people to be willing to heal in under-equipped parties (doing quests to equip properly) not less it.

This. If this ever goes in, there'll be whining threads up within a day about how x group tried to do a raid but the healer couldn't pot to keep the melee alive because he was on cooldown. Melee groups will be even less popular while all-caster runs will be unaffected because everyone takes care of themselves.

[NaturalHazard]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

lol wut?

maybe melee need pots too that give massive healing to hp and have no cool down, no negative short time effects and don't require a huge favour grind?

Hey they are melee they should be melee and there is no reason to set any obstacle to them so they should have access to unlimmited HP if they want to spend the plat or TP.

Maybe potions of heal? lolz just lolz


I didnt agree really with the op but your counter arguement is hilarious.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Lol this makes no sense... if you're doing elite ToD for instance and **** hits the fan, you can't wait 3 minutes for a new potion.

It makes absolute sense. Regardless of quest and difficulty, parties need to well organized and not reliant on mana pots. If it hits the fan, parties should be able to recover w/ minimal resource usage. But of course, if you are doing elite ToD, for instance and 3 people die in Horoth room, just recall out and start from the top. It's easy to be brave when you have healers willing to chug half dozen pots to pull a completion.