Suggestion for nerfing SP pots to restore some balance.

[ssgcmwatson]

It seems that the general consensus is that melee toons have become the red-headed stepchildren around here, and casters no longer need to learn to manage SP if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

My suggestion is to make the pots progressively less effective within a quest. Perhaps something like:

1st pot used - no penalty
2nd pot used - only gives 95% of possible SP
3rd pot used - only gives 90% of possible SP
...
and so on. I think it would be reasonable to cap the deduction at a certain point as well, say 10 or more pots used only give 50%.

This is just a launching point for discussion, so the specific numbers are certainly up for debate.

Thoughts?

[IanYang]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

[LoveNeverFails]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

timers much more so.

[Xenostrata]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

I approve of this change. However, I think we have different reasons - mine being that sp pots shouldn't be required for a completion, and that all of the updated raids should implement ansp regen mechanic somewhere between shroud and reaver's efficacy. Player skill and coordination should be far more important than how much resources you are willing to spend before giving up, and a quest with one 52 minute fight and no shrines = failquest.

How would people feel about removing all the shrines from shroud?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I approve of this change. However, I think we have different reasons - mine being that sp pots shouldn't be required for a completion, and that all of the updated raids should implement ansp regen mechanic somewhere between shroud and reaver's efficacy. Player skill and coordination should be far more important than how much resources you are willing to spend before giving up, and a quest with one 52 minute fight and no shrines = failquest.

How would people feel about removing all the shrines from shroud?

I want it because the devs would be able to make challanging content that isn't just about max dmg bosses with millions of hitpoints, and the only thing that makes it "hard" is how many potions you are willing to spend.

If you give me two groups, one that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC on the first day by chugging pots, and a second group that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC without having to down a single pot, but does it a week or two later, I'm going to be more impressed with the latter group. And what I"m really waiting for is a PuG group with no (or very few) pots downed.

The swiftness at which content is beaten is not a good indication of its difficulty. Don't forget that we have some players that are not only geared to the teeth with the best epic gear (new stuff excluded) but are also masters of their character's abilities. If you make a raid so hard that it challenges those characters, it pretty much excludes anyone else from ever completing without lots of consumables.

The trick, in my mind, is to make it hard enough that it challenges the 'average' player, but is still easy enough that a PuG group, once the methods of beating the boss has been figured out, still stands a good chance of finishing (perhaps excluding epic). Restricting pot usage isn't the way to do that.

Many people don't find enjoyment in crippling themselves (not using potions out of spite /whatever), some people want challange from the game while doing their best. You don't see people not using hotkeys because "it's too easy if you use em" or removing the spacebar, because the game's too easy if you jump.

I know that speed != difficulty. However, it is impossible for the devs to create "hard" content, ever. It's either a "walkover" with potions, or it's literally impossible. There's no inbetween.
Because of the nature of SP potions and healing in this game (No cast time, full hp per cast, etc), this is how it will be until they either restrict SP potions or release content primarely based on puzzles.

By limiting SP potions, the devs could move away from X millions of hp bosses dealing x hundreds of damage per hit, and more into skill / finess / tactics path.

Imo, one shouldn't be able to brute-force a raid in the first hours of its release - people should have to come up with some actual tactics.

[Chaos000]

By limiting SP potions, the devs could move away from X millions of hp bosses dealing x hundreds of damage per hit, and more into skill / finess / tactics path.

I'm all for limiting SP potions btw.

However, I would argue that the devs would need to make the changes to the bosses PRIOR to making the changes to mana potions or lots of players will get discouraged with the content and leave.

I don't think I'm alone in this. If I invest X amount of time I expect Y result for the time and resources invested. If the time spent results in nothing, it is unacceptable and there was no enjoyment to be gained from the experience.

Some people are all about the journey and smelling the roses and are happy irregardless of being able to get the chest at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, good for them. I'm part of the other player base and it would not be good to alienate them.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I approve of this change. However, I think we have different reasons - mine being that sp pots shouldn't be required for a completion, and that all of the updated raids should implement ansp regen mechanic somewhere between shroud and reaver's efficacy. Player skill and coordination should be far more important than how much resources you are willing to spend before giving up, and a quest with one 52 minute fight and no shrines = failquest.

How would people feel about removing all the shrines from shroud?

Both Lord of Blades and Master Artificer have some mana regen capabilities.

Removing all shrines from Shroud means we will be back to 2008 when most groups would not even bother to bring a caster: 1 divine, 1 bard, 10 tempests splashes.

[Arel]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

If you give me two groups, one that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC on the first day by chugging pots, and a second group that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC without having to down a single pot, but does it a week or two later, I'm going to be more impressed with the latter group. And what I"m really waiting for is a PuG group with no (or very few) pots downed.

The swiftness at which content is beaten is not a good indication of its difficulty. Don't forget that we have some players that are not only geared to the teeth with the best epic gear (new stuff excluded) but are also masters of their character's abilities. If you make a raid so hard that it challenges those characters, it pretty much excludes anyone else from ever completing without lots of consumables.

The trick, in my mind, is to make it hard enough that it challenges the 'average' player, but is still easy enough that a PuG group, once the methods of beating the boss has been figured out, still stands a good chance of finishing (perhaps excluding epic). Restricting pot usage isn't the way to do that.

[Viisari]

The trick, in my mind, is to make it hard enough that it challenges the 'average' player, but is still easy enough that a PuG group, once the methods of beating the boss has been figured out, still stands a good chance of finishing (perhaps excluding epic). Restricting pot usage isn't the way to do that.

Only exceptions to this currently are elite ToD and the new raids on elite and epic. Everything else in the game is easily completed without any potions by a competent pug group.

[Kadran]

Only exceptions to this currently are elite ToD and the new raids on elite and epic. Everything else in the game is easily completed without any potions by a competent pug group.

Have you tried Elite Shroud post update? It's ridiculous. We had a very good group and still used a LOT of pots. The average PuG will not be able to complete without MASSIVE resource consumption if at all.

[protokon]

Only exceptions to this currently are elite ToD and the new raids on elite and epic. Everything else in the game is easily completed without any potions by a competent pug group.

Even those aren't the exception anymore. All 3 of them have been completed without pots, see achievements forums for more info.

Granted, your not going to see that kind of run by the masses, and I'm sure even that group won't be able to pull it off every single time for a few more attempts - but it's been proven that its possible.

[Forzah]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

Lol this makes no sense... if you're doing elite ToD for instance and **** hits the fan, you can't wait 3 minutes for a new potion.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Lol this makes no sense... if you're doing elite ToD for instance and **** hits the fan, you can't wait 3 minutes for a new potion.

It makes absolute sense. Regardless of quest and difficulty, parties need to well organized and not reliant on mana pots. If it hits the fan, parties should be able to recover w/ minimal resource usage. But of course, if you are doing elite ToD, for instance and 3 people die in Horoth room, just recall out and start from the top. It's easy to be brave when you have healers willing to chug half dozen pots to pull a completion.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Lol this makes no sense... if you're doing elite ToD for instance and **** hits the fan, you can't wait 3 minutes for a new potion.

/facepalm
You really didn't think that through, did you?

That's the whole point! It's not supposed to be "trollface.SP potion" if you face problems. You're actually supposed to be able to fail a quest.

[Chaos000]

That's the whole point! It's not supposed to be "trollface.SP potion" if you face problems. You're actually supposed to be able to fail a quest.

Solution: Permadeath server with no mana potions.

Designed for people that want to investing time and energy only to fail and enjoy the experience.

Different playstyle guys. If you want the challenge then start lfm's stating clearly that it's a "dry" (casters are not to drink any mana pots) run.

[Forzah]

/facepalm
You really didn't think that through, did you?

That's the whole point! It's not supposed to be "trollface.SP potion" if you face problems. You're actually supposed to be able to fail a quest.

What is there to think? Waiting three minutes for using a potion is just too harsh... especially in ToD where you have to act quickly if something goes wrong. Your mechanic lowers the chance of completing an elite ToD dramatically. The whole run has to be flawless. That's really not preferable for one of the hardest raids in this game. For one, I think it's a lot of fun to recover a run that is going bad, even though it costs a lot of pots; it gives a lot of satisfaction.

Moreover, you're also trying to fix the wrong thing. SP pots are not the cause of balance problems in this game; it's the power of some spells. SP pots are hardly ever used anyway... only if there is real trouble. I think it's a good last recourse.

[NaturalHazard]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

lol wut?

maybe melee need pots too that give massive healing to hp and have no cool down, no negative short time effects and don't require a huge favour grind?

Hey they are melee they should be melee and there is no reason to set any obstacle to them so they should have access to unlimmited HP if they want to spend the plat or TP.

Maybe potions of heal? lolz just lolz


I didnt agree really with the op but your counter arguement is hilarious.

[Helexax]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

Pots =/= class ability....

If you believe that i strongly suggest counseling to break your addiction o_O

edit~ On topic, i agree melee either needs to be buffed, or casters AND / OR their pots nerfed, not all 3, but certainly at least one. As it is melee are obsolete.

[varusso]

SP pots make lazy players.

Wow, I just love this statement, and how often it is bandied about, despite its blatant basis in pure BS.

First of all, I have *YET* to encounter these players that supposedly guzzle pots to zip through content, even though so many people like to claim it is such a rampant issue. I *HAVE* seen an arcane or divine chug a pot or two in order to pull the party out of a disaster, but its the rare exception, not the rule. But lets just pretend for the sake of argument that they DO exist and that they ARE running around in every party, just hooking up a beer bong to their backpack and funneling SP in through it.

Now, in order for a player to chug pots at such a disgusting rate, they would ave to do one of two things: Acquire in-game pots or buy them from the DDO store. If they are getting them in-game, then they are either farming them like crazy via questing, or they are buying them in mass-quantities from other players for insane amounts of plat -- which would in turn require them to spend significant amounts of time farming quests for plat. This hardly sounds like someone being "lazy" to me. It sounds like someone working their ass off farming in order to -- complete other quests easier/faster??

The other option being that they are buying them from the DDO store. This of course means they are spending real-life $$ -- which means they are working their ass off in the real world to pay for it. Again, hardly someone I would call 'lazy". And it is no different than spending your "entertainment funds" on a movie or a burger. This *IS* just a game, regardless of how seriously some of us may take it.

Now what MAY be happening is that these mysterious SP-chugging players MIGHT be using pots to speed-solo quests -- which would explain why I never see them "ruining my party" like others claim. And if that is the case...WHO CARES?

Bottom line: the rampant mass-pot-chugging simply IS NOT happening. And even if it were, SO WHAT? If player A wants to spend all month farming up a piece of gear to make themselves better able to heal/nuke/CC/whatever, and player B would rather spend some extra plat/$$ to get the same effect, I really could not care less. So long as that heal/nuke/CC/whatever is there when the group needs it, I really could not care less how it GOT there. That is up to the individual player. Personally, I am too busy doing MY "job" in a group (and having fun) to bother watching anyone else's blue bar to see if they have a drinking problem.

The other thing that kills me -- The same person who complains that content is being 'DESIGNED" with drinking SP pots in mind, and gets ticked off that they "have to" <cough cough> spend their precious resources to complete a quest...this is the same person who will turn around and complain that SP pots are easy to get and trivialize content... Really? REALLY? Make up your minds, seriously. Either they are easy to get and therefore are not really any more of a problem than heal scrolls and HP pots, OR they are rare items that should only be used in emergencies. You cannot use one argument to justify the other -- they are polar opposites.

Or better yet, quit complaining about someone else using pots if they choose (or not using them), and quit making up stories about large numbers of players potting their way to victory in every quest. They dont exist; they are the boogeymen you use to scare little kids into doing what you want, because you cant actually justify your arguments.

Pots do NOT need to be nerfed/put on timers/removed from the game, or any of the other nonsense that pops up in a similar thread every couple of weeks. Players who think they do need to learn to keep their noses out of other players' backpacks and focus more on their own toons.