Suggestion for nerfing SP pots to restore some balance.

[ssgcmwatson]

It seems that the general consensus is that melee toons have become the red-headed stepchildren around here, and casters no longer need to learn to manage SP if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

My suggestion is to make the pots progressively less effective within a quest. Perhaps something like:

1st pot used - no penalty
2nd pot used - only gives 95% of possible SP
3rd pot used - only gives 90% of possible SP
...
and so on. I think it would be reasonable to cap the deduction at a certain point as well, say 10 or more pots used only give 50%.

This is just a launching point for discussion, so the specific numbers are certainly up for debate.

Thoughts?

[IanYang]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Incorrect.

It makes no sense to restrict a class's ability just because you think they are powerful.

Spell casters should be spell casters. There is no reason to set any obstacle to them.

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

[LoveNeverFails]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

timers much more so.

[mystafyi]

if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

Thoughts?

SP pots are top sellers in ddostore. sorry your suggestion just hit a brick wall. With ddo a f2p model now, ddostore sales are the only thing important to turbine.

[varusso]

Yay, the weekly nerf pots thread.
No.
You dont need pots to play a caster effectively. Nerfing them will not solve your problem; it will only create other problems and **** off players for no reason. Learning how to play your melee toon WILL solve your problem. And its not the "general consensus" that melees suck (current glitches aside). It is the general consensus that people who do not know how to play their toons, and call for nerfing of others to "balance" the classes suck.

<insert obligatory silly argument about nerfing health pots and everything else that benefit melees as counterpoint to nerfing SP pots>

[Xenostrata]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

I approve of this change. However, I think we have different reasons - mine being that sp pots shouldn't be required for a completion, and that all of the updated raids should implement ansp regen mechanic somewhere between shroud and reaver's efficacy. Player skill and coordination should be far more important than how much resources you are willing to spend before giving up, and a quest with one 52 minute fight and no shrines = failquest.

How would people feel about removing all the shrines from shroud?

[Xenostrata]

Yay, the weekly nerf pots thread.
No.
You dont need pots to play a caster effectively. Nerfing them will not solve your problem; it will only create other problems and **** off players for no reason. Learning how to play your melee toon WILL solve your problem. And its not the "general consensus" that melees suck (current glitches aside). It is the general consensus that people who do not know how to play their toons, and call for nerfing of others to "balance" the classes suck.

<insert obligatory silly argument about nerfing health pots and everything else that benefit melees as counterpoint to nerfing SP pots>

I don't see this as nerfing casters, since the vast majority of us tend to not chug pot after pot to wrangle a completion.

I'd much rather they have sp regen in insufferably long raids with no shrines (coughreaverscough), instead of forcing people to spend hundreds of thousands of plat per run.

Again, the true test of whether or not a group succeeds should not be willingness to spend resources but instead player skill. Once a balanced group goes in there, beats LoB epic, and uses 0 pots, I will stop complaining.

Edit and disclaimer: 12 FvS doesn't constitute a "balanced" group.

[Viisari]

It seems that the general consensus is that melee toons have become the red-headed stepchildren around here, and casters no longer need to learn to manage SP if they're willing to spend plat or TP on SP pots.

My suggestion is to make the pots progressively less effective within a quest. Perhaps something like:

1st pot used - no penalty
2nd pot used - only gives 95% of possible SP
3rd pot used - only gives 90% of possible SP
...
and so on. I think it would be reasonable to cap the deduction at a certain point as well, say 10 or more pots used only give 50%.

This is just a launching point for discussion, so the specific numbers are certainly up for debate.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? This will do pretty much nothing to nerf casters, potions are not the reason casters are so good.

So sure, nerf potions for all I care and then watch as the forums are flooded with whines about how it's now impossible for bad players to complete any epic quest.

Actually yeah go ahead, the tears would be delicious.

[Arel]

/facepalm

I agree with the OP, but there should be harsher penalties than that.
imo
normal: 30 sec cooldown
hard: 60 sec cooldown
elite: 3 minute cooldown
epic: 5 minute cooldown

This would allow the devs can actually release content that isn't beaten within 5 hours on the test servers, and 3 hours on the live servers.
I.e. content that is actually challanging.

If you give me two groups, one that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC on the first day by chugging pots, and a second group that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC without having to down a single pot, but does it a week or two later, I'm going to be more impressed with the latter group. And what I"m really waiting for is a PuG group with no (or very few) pots downed.

The swiftness at which content is beaten is not a good indication of its difficulty. Don't forget that we have some players that are not only geared to the teeth with the best epic gear (new stuff excluded) but are also masters of their character's abilities. If you make a raid so hard that it challenges those characters, it pretty much excludes anyone else from ever completing without lots of consumables.

The trick, in my mind, is to make it hard enough that it challenges the 'average' player, but is still easy enough that a PuG group, once the methods of beating the boss has been figured out, still stands a good chance of finishing (perhaps excluding epic). Restricting pot usage isn't the way to do that.

[Silverwren]

Yay, the weekly nerf pots thread.
No.
You dont need pots to play a caster effectively. Nerfing them will not solve your problem; it will only create other problems and **** off players for no reason. Learning how to play your melee toon WILL solve your problem. And its not the "general consensus" that melees suck (current glitches aside). It is the general consensus that people who do not know how to play their toons, and call for nerfing of others to "balance" the classes suck.

I agree. If players build and play their toons to their absolute best they will no longer request that everyone else get nerfed. Your toon is as only good as the amount of effort you put into to learning how to build and play it properly.

/not signed

There's nothing here that needs to be "balanced" or "fixed".

[Viisari]

The trick, in my mind, is to make it hard enough that it challenges the 'average' player, but is still easy enough that a PuG group, once the methods of beating the boss has been figured out, still stands a good chance of finishing (perhaps excluding epic). Restricting pot usage isn't the way to do that.

Only exceptions to this currently are elite ToD and the new raids on elite and epic. Everything else in the game is easily completed without any potions by a competent pug group.

[thakorian]

This hurts melees a lot more than casters. Decent arcanes in general have no need to chug any potions, they've got rings of SS and baubles and are mainly responsible for their own sp consumption. Divines on the other hand usually spend their sp on melees hp. If the divine runs out of sp and can't chug any pots due to a timer, its byebye to the axers. Hence it's more of a "nerf the pugs" than "nerf the casters" idea.

If a caster has to chug a pot, its usually because the dps or the caster sucks.

[Viisari]

I agree. If players build and play their toons to their absolute best they will no longer request that everyone else get nerfed. Your toon is as only good as the amount of effort you put into to learning how to build and play it properly.

/not signed

There's nothing here that needs to be "balanced" or "fixed".

Heh, while nerfing casters might not be a good solution, it is ridiculous to claim that they aren't way better at pretty much everything than melees are. Because they really are better for almost everything. Melees are only needed for some very niche tasks, everything else can be performed by an arcane or divine caster equally well and in most cases better.

The fortification changes in U11 made the gap even wider, melee dps was nerfed while caster dps remained unaffected.

The new raids did a good job on making melees better than casters in several tasks though.

[fuzzy1guy]

no.

[nivarch]

Yes please !

I hate the fact that raids seem to be balanced around drinking pots.
I hate the fact that pots can be bought from the store

Nerf pots, keep them useful (cooldown for example) but not as OP as they are now

[Vellrad]

Nerfing amount of mana/potion will make healers have to drink more pots.
Adding huge timers will make healers have todrink pots in advance.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I approve of this change. However, I think we have different reasons - mine being that sp pots shouldn't be required for a completion, and that all of the updated raids should implement ansp regen mechanic somewhere between shroud and reaver's efficacy. Player skill and coordination should be far more important than how much resources you are willing to spend before giving up, and a quest with one 52 minute fight and no shrines = failquest.

How would people feel about removing all the shrines from shroud?

I want it because the devs would be able to make challanging content that isn't just about max dmg bosses with millions of hitpoints, and the only thing that makes it "hard" is how many potions you are willing to spend.

If you give me two groups, one that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC on the first day by chugging pots, and a second group that wins the raid ON ELITE/EPIC without having to down a single pot, but does it a week or two later, I'm going to be more impressed with the latter group. And what I"m really waiting for is a PuG group with no (or very few) pots downed.

The swiftness at which content is beaten is not a good indication of its difficulty. Don't forget that we have some players that are not only geared to the teeth with the best epic gear (new stuff excluded) but are also masters of their character's abilities. If you make a raid so hard that it challenges those characters, it pretty much excludes anyone else from ever completing without lots of consumables.

The trick, in my mind, is to make it hard enough that it challenges the 'average' player, but is still easy enough that a PuG group, once the methods of beating the boss has been figured out, still stands a good chance of finishing (perhaps excluding epic). Restricting pot usage isn't the way to do that.

Many people don't find enjoyment in crippling themselves (not using potions out of spite /whatever), some people want challange from the game while doing their best. You don't see people not using hotkeys because "it's too easy if you use em" or removing the spacebar, because the game's too easy if you jump.

I know that speed != difficulty. However, it is impossible for the devs to create "hard" content, ever. It's either a "walkover" with potions, or it's literally impossible. There's no inbetween.
Because of the nature of SP potions and healing in this game (No cast time, full hp per cast, etc), this is how it will be until they either restrict SP potions or release content primarely based on puzzles.

By limiting SP potions, the devs could move away from X millions of hp bosses dealing x hundreds of damage per hit, and more into skill / finess / tactics path.

Imo, one shouldn't be able to brute-force a raid in the first hours of its release - people should have to come up with some actual tactics.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Adding huge timers will make healers have todrink pots in advance.

It would still lower the amount used by a LOT. (3-4 in an epic raid compared to up to 100 (first day epic lob completions).

You could just simply restrict the amount you can use. Say 10 normal, 5 hard, 3 elite, 1 epic. Or something similar.

[Chaos000]

This would hurt the game in general. You want to MORE people to be willing to heal in under-equipped parties (doing quests to equip properly) not less it.

They already added longer cooldowns to wands and scrolls due to excessive overuse and that eliminated the ability for a high UMD user to keep an entire party alive through the use of wand/scroll healing shifting the responsibility to clerics (and favored souls when they were added) - A well built radiant servant through the use of bursts should be able to keep up with demand and not have to fall back on mana potions (in theory) while a fvs is far more likely to have to chug pots in the event the dps is sorely lacking in overall damage output and good twitch skills to avoid blows.

Also... If people grouped up only with players good at the game the new players will have a harder time learning because nobody would be willing to take them due to the cost involved. More so if it will now determine the success or failure of the actual quest/raid.

Proof in the pudding. Due to the need to fall back on mana in elite and epic content because of the new changes pugs are having a harder time getting anyone that heals willing to join them. Longer wait time between grouping = more time required to accomplish anything = less people grouping.