Hate being level 20 cleric

[ainmosni]

Pugs are what make this game fun, but if I have to carry the pug its just not that fun. People say that scrolls are not expensive, well, to me they are and just popping them off can drain what little funds I have. I know there are new players out there that can't afford pots and scolls to use often. Of course after 3 epics and 1 raid I would have to stop playing anyways because all of my pots will be gone.
Also people are saying that it will take a little bit longer for new players to catch up on equipment, but really, with the pugs not getting healing, and if they dont have a great cleric, they will never be able to get the epic equipment they will need to actually finish the quest. Its a catch 22, especially now where everyone see's how much SP and HP you have. I know people are judging other people on that alone.

Good luck to the new players that don't have any Greensteel or epic gear, the chance that they will be invited to a group that will be able to finish the quest will be very small.

heal scrolls are NOT expensive, and they should be in every healer's arsenal (or anyone with the umd to use them). one large devil scale from shroud can be sold for plat, and you can use that plat to buy enough heal scrolls to last a month.


the last statement concerns me more though, new players who don't have greensteel or basic raid gear absolutely should NOT be in epic raids. the shroud hasnt changed; VOD normal, hound normal, and epic QUESTS (not raids) are just as easy and pug-able as they've always been. hell, the epic antique greataxe is now a weapon on par with the epic sword of shadow, and the quests needed to get them are two of the easiest epic quests in the game (snitch for the seal, big top for the shard). the BASE item sword of shadow is an outstanding weapon, the best non-epic weapon in the game outside crafted weapons that i can think of, and it requires completion of a level 11 raid. (it does drop on normal-elite difficulties.)

yes u11 went too far with the difficulties of raids. but people should NOT be able to get to level 20, put no effort into improving their toon through easily obtained gear, walk into epic queen and expect it to be easy. a party full of above mentioned toons should not be able to complete at all.

[NaturalHazard]

Hi can you comes jhealz our raid plze?

[peetrs]

Couple of unsorted thoughts (works in any MMO, except of DDO specific stuff):

1) If you want to run Epic, get a guild. Don't expect to PUG everything. If you don't want to get a guild, it's your problem, but don't expect to get accepted to groups if nobody knows you.

2) There should be challange for best players. I sincerely hope the stuff written in this thread is true, because otherwise I'll get bored after I hit cap (like I already did few times and I quit the game at that moment). If you want to just chill in some game and you don't like challanges, go play Hello Kitty.

3) Yes, veterans don't pug much (I pug only rarely, because I just hate to have quest ruined by some idiot who was told what to do and not to do and he still didn't listen), at least the hardest stuff in game.

4) eVON6 was just plain boring before U11, still the same post U11. Same as DQ, same as Reaver, same as Titan (if you're not one of 3 guys doing the actuall killing of titan, that's fun), but I blame lame quest design for this. Same as latest beefing up of bosses with HPs and Fort, that too lame quest design.

5) Learn how to play your class, try to not make blatant obvious mistakes and you'll get noticed by good players and you'll start to get invites. People do remember competent players.

6) Solo a lot, no better way how to find limitations of your character then solo and I mean don't solo normal (even gelatinous cube can solo quests on normal, it's not even difficulty), solo elite.

7) Really good groups don't mind you're lacking equipment (ok, there are some standard like having Heavy fort, but that's about it) if they know you're capable player. Rest are just not good groups, so don't bother with them.

8) Listen to the leader, he's in most cases veteran who knows lot of people and if he finds that you're an @ss, then every most other veterans will know it pretty soon.

9) NEVER forget that DDO is team game and team games require communication and cooperation.

That's about it. My advices how to get into groups for end of the endgame

Someone posted that fresh lvl 20 shouldn't expect to do Epics without any sort of preparation whatsoever. That's just plain stupid to expect otherwise.

I struggle to understand point of topics such as this...

[Chette]

Nobody is saying don't PUG.
People are saying don't PUG the top tier hardest raids/quests in the game.

Why should a random group of ungeared characters be able to complete (in the same amount of time and with the same resources used) the same content as a well geared extremely focused ideal party with excellent communication skills that are used to running together, who understand eachothers roles and limitations?

Making elite and epic raids harder does nothing to spoil your fun. If they are too hard for you to pug, then pug normal and hard. Make friends (that's what you say you're here for right?) When you make friends running normal ToD, then say, hey friends, why don't we try and do a hard run in another week or so? Eventually, you will get to know all your new friends. You will get a feeling of who is best at tanking, who is best at healing, etc. As you continue to run normal and hard, you will acquire better gear and a better understanding of the new mechanics. Some of you may re-spec your characters to be better suited to the new changes. You will make even more friends. Suddenly these PUGs are still PUGs, but they're not complete unknowns.

You will adapt, you will learn, and then you will beat the new content.

Or you could stand in place and hit the easy button...but if that's what you want, then hey, just keep running normal. U11 shouldn't be any change for you at all in that case.

[dragonmane]

heal scrolls are NOT expensive, and they should be in every healer's arsenal (or anyone with the umd to use them). one large devil scale from shroud can be sold for plat, and you can use that plat to buy enough heal scrolls to last a month.


the last statement concerns me more though, new players who don't have greensteel or basic raid gear absolutely should NOT be in epic raids. the shroud hasnt changed; VOD normal, hound normal, and epic QUESTS (not raids) are just as easy and pug-able as they've always been. hell, the epic antique greataxe is now a weapon on par with the epic sword of shadow, and the quests needed to get them are two of the easiest epic quests in the game (snitch for the seal, big top for the shard). the BASE item sword of shadow is an outstanding weapon, the best non-epic weapon in the game outside crafted weapons that i can think of, and it requires completion of a level 11 raid. (it does drop on normal-elite difficulties.)

yes u11 went too far with the difficulties of raids. but people should NOT be able to get to level 20, put no effort into improving their toon through easily obtained gear, walk into epic queen and expect it to be easy. a party full of above mentioned toons should not be able to complete at all.

So your saying that new players that are 20 should never do epic quests? That makes no sense because then only poeple doing epic quests will have epic items. You have just shut out a large portion of players from doing end game quests.

There is a saying: "If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns"
Of course if epics are so hard that only well geared players can complete, then the only people who will run epics will be people who dont need the gear. Now that makes sense!

[ainmosni]

So your saying that new players that are 20 should never do epic quests? That makes no sense because then only poeple doing epic quests will have epic items. You have just shut out a large portion of players from doing end game quests.

There is a saying: "If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns"
Of course if epics are so hard that only well geared players can complete, then the only people who will run epics will be people who dont need the gear. Now that makes sense!

shroud is not epic. vod is not epic. hound is not epic.

none of these are epic. all have gear that is acceptable in epic raids.

epic quests are not epic raids. they're easy. trivial. take 5 pikers and let a pale master solo your toons to godhood.


you shouldnt need an epic SOS to complete edragon. but you shouldnt be able to complete with korthos gear on.

[ainmosni]

example: someone hits your edragon lfm. it's a ranger, cool. 2 lightning 2's, tharne's goggles, greensteel min2 helm, bloodstone, dragontouched armor of some kind, ravager set, shintao set, greensteel lightning guard cloak, non-epic claw set.


none of the above mentioned items require a single epic quest or raid to get, but this would seem like a pretty solid toon for an epic dragon if it showed up on myddo.

what was your question about needing epic gear to run epics?

[Chette]

example: someone hits your edragon lfm. it's a ranger, cool. 2 lightning 2's, tharne's goggles, greensteel min2 helm, bloodstone, dragontouched armor of some kind, ravager set, shintao set, greensteel lightning guard cloak, non-epic claw set.


none of the above mentioned items require a single epic quest or raid to get, but this would seem like a pretty solid toon for an epic dragon if it showed up on myddo.

what was your question about needing epic gear to run epics?

I have an epic sacred band, kick that noob and accept me.

[Satinavian]

Nobody is saying don't PUG.
People are saying don't PUG the top tier hardest raids/quests in the game.

Yes, exactly. It's not about "have some greensteels before setting foot in epics", it's not "those epics are starter epics, these are a bit harder, for you you should have a certain party composition and you need those DCs to fullfill your role ". It's instead "Don't PUG Epics. esp. as healer. If you don't have a large guild or a large network of contacts, your abilities don't matter, you are screwed"

Making elite and epic raids harder does nothing to spoil your fun.

No one cares about elite.

Most raids are regularly run on normal, all raids have all named items available on normal and hard, and enough pugs exist. Elite could and should be the terrain of people who want more challange.

It's about epics. Epics have only one difficulty. If you have a capped toon, you can pretty much only do epics and small number of high-level quests which are nearly of same difficulty or grind lower level-content for some named loot (which is completely boring of course and mostly only of use with epic upgrade or for TRing/twinking alts). If you are out of epics, you are pretty much out of the game with such a capped character. Well, as for finding friends, you won't ever impress anybody as lv 20 in loot-farming regular reavers,shrouds, vons, dqs. ToD-pugging (or anything that requires more skill than an average quest) is nearly as dead as epic-pugging (people stick to friends), even on normal.

At cap without friends you can pretty much start over on level 1/4 if people suddenly avoid pugs.

[krackythehoodedone]

Well at least you are wanted?

U11 has highlighted graphicaly the enormous gulf of difference between a group of long standing Tr'd well geared players and a party of just reached Capped.

Before U11 you could go with either(or at least a mixed bag) and not use to much resource.

Do one of the beefed up raids now and with your supergroup you still wont use a pot. With the other it will turn into a resource nightmare of Epic proportions.

This is why Epic Pugs have gone down the toilet dramaticaly and the top guilds and players are behaving as a Clique and only grouping with eachother

I also have hardly touched my healer since U11. I will turn up for a decent group who pester me when i'm on another toon but i am mega picky. One thing you learn quickly as a Cleric if you lose a whole stack of Pots you will get a bit of sympathy, maybe even a few back but in general...Nada.

Some stuff is practically the same tho..stick to that.

Or maybe use your new found attractability to group with the best players/guilds..You will learn an awful lot quickly

[Chette]

No one cares about elite.

Most raids are regularly run on normal, all raids have all named items available on normal and hard, and enough pugs exist. Elite could and should be the terrain of people who want more challange.

It's about epics. Epics have only one difficulty. If you have a capped toon, you can pretty much only do epics and small number of high-level quests which are nearly of same difficulty or grind lower level-content for some named loot (which is completely boring of course and mostly only of use with epic upgrade or for TRing/twinking alts). If you are out of epics, you are pretty much out of the game with such a capped character. Well, as for finding friends, you won't ever impress anybody as lv 20 in loot-farming regular reavers,shrouds, vons, dqs. ToD-pugging (or anything that requires more skill than an average quest) is nearly as dead as epic-pugging (people stick to friends), even on normal.

At cap without friends you can pretty much start over on level 1/4 if people suddenly avoid pugs.

I'm not clear what your issue is.
Is your issue that because you are not in a guild you don't get a chance to run epic raids? (it can't be about epic quests, because I pug epic quests every day on multiple characters, they are not any harder) Have you considered...joining a guild? Or making some friends in a guild?

Nobody is expecting you to play in a static group. I don't. I am lucky enough to be in a fantastic raiding guild. When we find 4-6 people wanting to run an epic raid we start one. Then, if we don't fill in guild (which we frequently don't) we open it up. First to our friends. People we have run with in the past and know to be good players, and then to pug land.

You don't have to run epics to make friends. Tank a hard or elite Tower, guide people through tiles in Abbot, start running your own raids (even on normal) and meet other good players that way.

But selecting a random assortment of 12 people who might not have a clue what they're doing and expecting them to beat the hardest raids in the game? That's not fair to the folks to put everything they've got into gearing out and planning for the content. There are what, 5 epic raids in the game? Yes, I think it's reasonable that those 5 raids should be rather difficult.

[Satinavian]

shroud is not epic. vod is not epic. hound is not epic.

It's not only that you don't see any lfms for eChronoscope anymore (last one i saw was half a month ago, but granted, don't play much at peak times), you now even rarely see lfms for easy P&D epic quests and also far less for VoD and Hound.

Oh, and Shroud normal(yesterday) : Group with 2 2FvS,1 Clr,1 Spellsinger and half of them (not me) arguing if the healers would run out of mana because of U11. It was utterly ridiculous. And even less Shroud lfms to see (even if it is still easy enough to nearly fall asleep)

Also it's not about being picky and MyDdoing rangers hitting the lfm for your epic dragon. There are no lfms for epic Dragons

[Siro]

At one time the game had a level cap of 10. It had experience penalties, permanent ailments and stat damage. It was HARD. There were no difficulty levels. The big consumable for clerics was cure light, mod, serious wands and EVERYTHING took longer to do because it takes awhile to top off the party with wands. Back then Delera's could take 4 hours on a good day. Tempest Spine was the only raid, but it was broken/down most of the time.

There were significant problems. Certain mechanics and spells didn't translate well into the game. Many mechanics were missing (some critical ones still are!), unbalancing the game's translation from PNP. There was also some distinct problems with regards to what is a level-appropriate challenge rating. Lag didn't help anything either when it could mean the difference between earning 1000 exp or losing 1000 exp. Pugging was a nightmare. Few people did it and the rest of us had to fend for ourselves.

It wasn't 'fun'. It missed the point and it didn't have the subscriber base to stay in business under that model. Things have changed dramatically since then. The game is a LOT easier, appealing to a wider audience. There's no getting around that. In order for the company to stay afloat, the overall experience must be enjoyable to the broadest possible player base. The game would become a financial liability if it ceased being 'fun' to puggers.

Those looking for a challenge will still be able to create their own challenges in much the same way they've always done. Soloing difficult quests has always been a favorite. Some people like to try to run stuff naked. Some people try to run without a class/item/spell that is perceived as critical to success of a quest.

And those clrs/fvs really should hook up with other disenchanted clrs/fvs because 6-12 divines can handle anything.

[Satinavian]

I'm not clear what your issue is.
Is your issue that because you are not in a guild you don't get a chance to run epic raids? (it can't be about epic quests, because I pug epic quests every day on multiple characters, they are not any harder) Have you considered...joining a guild? Or making some friends in a guild?

I am in a guild. A quite small guild. With players i do trust and we run as often together as possible.

But we can't fill even a 6-person group, far less a raidgroup. Wasn't a problem before : joining pugs, filling up with pugs even doing at least the easier epics regularly and without any screening or waiting for perfect parties and usually without feeling very challanged.

Now, suddenly it becomes harder to pug anything at cap (not only the raids). It is annoying. Especcially, when your guild is located in a less populated timezone.


Sure, we could quit the guild and join larger ones, but i sinply don't want to really consider that.

Also the momentary lack of lfms might be related to CC more than to people no longer pugging, but after all those players, who expressed here in this thread to no longer pug epic raids, or any epics, or run epic pugs only as non-healers or that you should not pug at cap in an MMO anyway i argued assuming the lack of lfms really is U11-based.
[/QUOTE]

[ainmosni]

I

Oh, and Shroud normal(yesterday) : Group with 2 2FvS,1 Clr,1 Spellsinger and half of them (not me) arguing if the healers would run out of mana because of U11. It was utterly ridiculous. And even less Shroud lfms to see (even if it is still easy enough to nearly fall asleep)

u11 didnt change shroud on normal at all. same hitpoints, same 50% fort, some normal raid bosses like sully got some metamagics but harry's DBF has always been caster level 20 max/empowered.

i solo healed shroud on my warchanter bard just yesterday, in a pug- like, 'throw up an lfm and take first 11 to hit it' pug.

u11 made raids harder, hitpoints show, adamantine weapons good for something, people exaggerate, and little metal doggies that often outkill some party members.

im sorry if i dont see as many problems as others, i do think they should tone down u11 raids just a bit, but i hit/make lfm's for shroud all the time. what server are you on? 3 divines and a spellsinger? i'd be more worried about HARRY running out of spellpoints first.

[ainmosni]

Also the momentary lack of lfms might be related to CC more than to people no longer pugging, but after all those players, who expressed here in this thread to no longer pug epic raids, or any epics, or run epic pugs only as non-healers or that you should not pug at cap in an MMO anyway i argued assuming the lack of lfms really is U11-based.

that is a more likely culprit. every time something in the game changes, a million people scream it's the end of DDO because of (insert reason of the week here).

then, every time an event like CC or mabar comes around, you see popular threads like

"ddo population at an all-time low?"

lol.

[Chette]

I am in a guild. A quite small guild. With players i do trust and we run as often together as possible.

But we can't fill even a 6-person group, far less a raidgroup. Wasn't a problem before : joining pugs, filling up with pugs even doing at least the easier epics regularly and without any screening or waiting for perfect parties and usually without feeling very challanged.

Now, suddenly it becomes harder to pug anything at cap (not only the raids). It is annoying. Especcially, when your guild is located in a less populated timezone.


Sure, we could quit the guild and join larger ones, but i sinply don't want to really consider that.

Also the momentary lack of lfms might be related to CC more than to people no longer pugging, but after all those players, who expressed here in this thread to no longer pug epic raids, or any epics, or run epic pugs only as non-healers or that you should not pug at cap in an MMO anyway i argued assuming the lack of lfms really is U11-based.

It's almost certainly the CC event. Most epic quests are still a joke if you have one semi-competent caster. I see LFMs up for the regular fare: epic claw, deeps, last stand, tide turns, big top, snitch, etc, and I run these frequently with pugs.

If you want to run epic raids, then start organizing your own. Surely if you've been doing some raiding then you've gotten to know the people on your server. More than 50% of the epic raids I run aren't being led by my guild, they're being led by other people I've met raiding, that know me and know my guild and so welcome me in their raid. You should do the same.

Epic raids can absolutely still be done with relative ease, they just need more planning. You can't *pug* them in the traditional sense (by which I mean take the first 11 to hit the LFM). You'll need to be a bit more selective. You may need to screen applicants for the first little while, but it won't take long before you know who can pull their weight. Plus, make a name for yourself as a raid leader and people will be asking you to come on their epic raids

[Doxmaster]

It has gotten so bad that people are trying to hire me lol. But really, I am not going to be downing 20 to 30 SP pots just to finish an epic.

I have now not played my cleric but 3 times since update 11 and really, I hate getting on him just because of the invites and how long it takes to finish epics and raids. If DDO can just please reconsider that the increase in HP and fort has now made the game extremely hard to play any end game content unless you have tons of pots or a fully geared toon with a fully geared guild behind them.

Wait, so someone is offering to pay for your SP pots if you use them...but you dont want to quest with them because you are afraid of using SP pots?

Most people complaining about SP pot usage are complaining because it will cost them something. It might theoretically cost YOU something, but you're getting that back immediately.

just curious, but how many pots have you used since the update? You said you ran a few times since then...

[ainmosni]

this is all the evidence we need that u11 is awful and brought doom to anything above level 16 content.




typical ghallanda lfm panel, during non-peak hours on a weekday with a holiday event AND an xp bonus going on. o.O

endgame isnt dead. not just anyone can run epic/elite raids nowadays.

for those of you counting, that's 7 panels, 3 of which are raids, 2 of which are quests for FLAGGING for a raid.

[Siro]

this is all the evidence we need that u11 is awful and brought doom to anything above level 16 content.



typical ghallanda lfm panel, during non-peak hours on a weekday with a holiday event AND an xp bonus going on. o.O

endgame isnt dead. not just anyone can run epic/elite raids nowadays.

for those of you counting, that's 7 panels, 3 of which are raids, 2 of which are quests for FLAGGING for a raid.

XP bonus doesn't seem to be a factor, CC only has one group up. Looks like people are running what they consider a good time. Not a single epic in the lfm, guess they don't qualify.