Fallen Angel - WF FvS High Melee DPS/Healing/Tanking

[Symerith]

There are quite a few Warforged FvS builds out there, and even if this one is inspired by Sirgog's Soul Survivor build, it is different.

The Fallen Angel :

Race : Warforged.
Class : 20 Favored Soul.
Stats : 18 Strength, 20 Constitution, 10 Charisma.
Feats : Adamantine Body, Toughness, Power Attack, Empower Healing, Quicken, Imp. Crit:Slashing (or another Toughness if will exclusively use a Min II GS), Maximize.
FvS Bonus feats : Resistance Feats (Fire, Cold, Electric) & Deity Feats (Lord of the Blades).
Skills : Balance, Concentration, Jump. With the ease of getting Fireshield clickies, and with the ASF from Ada. Body, I found it not worth it to take UMD.
Enhancements :
WF Power Attack (6 AP)
WF Healer's Friend 3 (12 AP)
WF Con II (6 AP)
Wand and Scroll Mastery II (3 AP, not having levels here will hurt your Scroll healing a lot)
FvS Life Magic IV (10 AP)
FvS Toughness (20 AP)
Capstone (2 AP)
FvS Charisma I (2 AP)
You now have 19 AP left : This really depends on how you want to play your toon. Here are your options :
-AoVI
-110 more SP (6 AP)
-FvS Damage Boost IV (Maxed +25%, 10 AP, if you want more DPS)
-Brute Fighting IV (Maxed 25%, 10 AP, If you want to be a better Tank)
-DR (3 more DR for 12 AP)



So why is the Fallen Angel different from a traditionnal Soul Survivor?

I have been playing a Soul Survivor for a few months. It is a very versatile build, as it allows you to do Offensive casting, Meleeing, healing & at a lesser degree Tanking.. The Fallen Angel offers more melee DPS (from enhancements & feats) and tanking ability at the cost of losing all offensive casting ability. In no way will that affect your healing abilities. With Amrath clickies & some decent items, I never use maximize or empower on my mass cures.

The reasons for this choice :

I run a lot of end game content, and in all the epics I do, I find that a weak Blade Barrier & Divine Punishment offer too little. While it gives some versatility, mana conservation is very important, especially for epics which last longer than normal quests. Therefore, I almost never use those (BB being saved or half the damage). Basically, for no mana use, you'll do more damage in melee than you'll do with your spells. I know a lot of people will disagree with me here, but very often, the use of BB & DP means kiting, so no melee DPS at all. In my experience, in the quests I run (Epic Sands, red fens, VoN, carnival,...) a weak BB & DP offer too little compared to your melee abilities.

Typical Gear :

Helmet : Minos Legens
Trinket : Bloodstone
Necklace : Torc
Cloak : +6 Charisma Cloak
Goggles : +150 SP GS goggles with Concordant opposition/+6 wisdom
Boots : +45 HP GS Boots with Hastex3 Clickie
Bracers : Epic Bracers of the Claw
Gloves : Epic Gloves of the Claw
Armor : Dragontouched Docent (+5 resistance/+20% Healing Amp./+20% Incite)
Belt : Knost's Belt (FB set)
Ring 1 : Encrusted Ring (FB set, with +2 exc. Str)
Ring 2 : Ring of Thelis
Belt : Mineral II Greatsword or Lightning II Greatsword (Ideally an Epic Sword of Shadows).

Highlights :

High HP :
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
30 GFL
20 Toughness
45 GS
40 Toughness Enh.
40 Racial
160 Levels
200 Constitution
44 Feat x2
= 609 HP (631 if no Imp. Crit)

+20 rage
+20 yugo
+20 ship
= 669 HP self buffed (691 with 3 Feats).


Decent SP : Around 2800.
Damage Mitigation (DR & Resists) : 40 resists in Fire, Cold, Electric. 13-15 DR.
Healing Amplification : 140% Healing Amplification (With just 1 paladin past life, 135% without, 150% with 3.)
Tanking ability : 669 HP, ~15 DR, high energy resistance & threat from DT, enhancements & Claw set combined with good DPS will allow you to tank fairly often.
Soloability : How can I solo without Blade Barrier? Oh, wait, but I'm a self healing melee! You'll have no problems soloing from level 1 to level 20 if you know how to play your toon. I do advise to level with maximize/empower (See the Soul Survivor's Build from Sirgog) and LR at 20 into full melee DPS/tank.

Summary : ~15 DR, 669 HP self buffed (with paladin past life, so maxed 691), Wings, high energy resistance, guards (Air guard from boots with chance to get Haste, Goggles guard, possibility to get more with the red scale or on DT, fireshield guard.). You want to get hit, and you won't be hit for a lot of damage, so you can wait longer between each heal. This also means infinite mana/SP from Torc/Conc. opp when it's needed).

Important things to have at all times :
-Heal scrolls
-Greater restoration Scrolls
-DP/DF scrolls if you like SP conservation
-Invisibility & Jump Clickies (From Amrath)
-Amrath Healing Clickies
-A bauble

My own toon :

Another example of how you could gear your toon (Requires some Epic gear) :
Helmet : Epic Helm of the Red Dragon
Trinket : Epic Dragon's Eye
Necklace : Shintao necklace
Cloak : Epic Phirlian Mirror Cloak
Goggles : +150 SP GS goggles with Concordant opposition
Boots : +45 HP GS Boots with Hastex3 Clickie
Bracers : Epic Bracers of the Claw
Gloves : Epic Gloves of the Claw
Armor : Epic Red Dragonscale Docent
Belt : Epic Belt of the Moranon
Ring 1 : Shintao Ring (+2 exc. str)
Ring 2 : Lorinthor's Ring
Belt : Epic Sword of Shadows (Switching to Min II for DR breaking purposes, and Staff of the Petitioner when healing for SP management purposes).

My toon runs with 34 unbuffed Strength, so : 34 +2 rage +2 yugo +2 ship = 40 Sustainable Strength

[mute_mayhem]

Looks like a pretty good build...

only thing I would disagree on, as you said people would, is that dp is not worth casting/speccing for. In my experiences, a fvs just does not put out the same amount of dps as a true melee, thus dp can help bridge that gap somewhat. Just my opinion though...

One other thing, does the pally active past life stack with the divine favor spell? If it does not, why take the feat when you can just cast the spell?

[Duke-H-]

I also play a build inspired by soul survivor, most variations of it are great from what I've seen.

What struck me with your feat list is the active paladin past life, i don't understand the benefit from it on a FVS (it surely doesn't stack with proper DF, or does it?).
Anyway, wouldn't IC:Slashing be a better pick then a 2nd toughness, considering neither LSII nor eSoS are keen.

Edit: About DP
I'd say it is always worth casting, even without speccing into increasing the damage. Ofc you need to take into account the SP conservation issue you mentioned in the OP. But DP doesn't force you to kite, its just a nice bit of extra damage whenever you have SP to spare.

[Symerith]

Looks like a pretty good build...

only thing I would disagree on, as you said people would, is that dp is not worth casting/speccing for. In my experiences, a fvs just does not put out the same amount of dps as a true melee, thus dp can help bridge that gap somewhat. Just my opinion though...

One other thing, does the pally active past life stack with the divine favor spell? If it does not, why take the feat when you can just cast the spell?

I always thought it did stack, I must be wrong though since both of you mentionned it.

From my experience, I agree DP is really worth it in theory. But in practice, the time I spend casting DP can also be spent meleeing (around 2 or 3 more swings) with no mana at all. In my opinion, being great at 2 things is better than to be good at 3 things. I didn't take AoV II (+10% on Smiting), nor did I take the entier Smiting line (Stopped at Smiting II), so DP won't be extremely powerful, and I make up for the lack of offensive casting by speccing into melee.

I also play a build inspired by soul survivor, most variations of it are great from what I've seen.

What struck me with your feat list is the active paladin past life, i don't understand the benefit from it on a FVS (it surely doesn't stack with proper DF, or does it?).
Anyway, wouldn't IC:Slashing be a better pick then a 2nd toughness, considering neither LSII nor eSoS are keen.

Good idea, I'll change the Paly PL active feat with that. Again, I always thought it stacked but I'm wrong here.

Thanks for the feedback, will edit!

[Symerith]

Edit about DP
I'd say it is always worth casting, even without speccing into increasing the damage. Ofc you need to take into account the SP conservation issue you mentioned in the OP. But DP doesn't force you to kite, its just a nice bit of extra damage whenever you have SP to spare.

I have been playing my Soul Survivor for a few months, and the only places I've really used DP are very rare : Malicia before U11, A new invasion when Kiting the boss, TOD first parts... (can't really think of other places right now.. Sometimes abbot or shroud).

In other cases, the fight is either too SP expensive to use DP (eDA, eDragon, eLailat (too healing intensive here), eInto the Deep, TOD prt3), or the fight doesn't last long enough that's it's worth using DP (eLast stand Mage fight, eClaw boss at the beginning, eFathom, epic Carnivals...)

[wax_on_wax_off]

a fvs just does not put out the same amount of dps as a true melee, thus dp can help bridge that gap somewhat. Just my opinion though...

I don't see an opinion here, I just see plain facts.

DP gives extra damage at a low SP cost, it's a no brainer. Without it DPS is going to be much lower (usually to the point that you will probably be using more resources due to a drawn out fight).

AoV is such a good PrE that every FvS has to have it (or they might as well go home). If DA comes out next update then there might be a choice but just for the fortification reduction alone it is a must have.

Finally, I don't see Improved Critical: Slashing in your feat line up, how can you use an eSoS and not power it with IC:S?????

If you've followed the Soul Survivor build you should note Sirgog's opinion that the build is basically dated in U11 where the tanking abilities are lack lustre (as the new raids (seem to) require true dedicated tanks). Another factor in this (at least for me) is the difficulty in satisfactorily fitting in AoV and the enhancements necessary to tank. At the moment the best FvS tanks have no melee power and just rely on shield mastery and DP for aggro generation.

[K_0tiC]

So hows does taking 2 toughness feats over maxi/emp give you more dps?

[nivarch]

This may be a stupid question but why WF ?
Horc offer a bit more damage per hit, at the cost of to hit, but allow taking another divinity that offer more than shield SLA. It also leave you more room with armor slot and avoid the healing penalty.

Quick comparison WF vs Horc (may be wrong please correct me) :
Horc :

• +2 Str Base (+1 to hit, +1,5 damage)
• +2 Str Enhancement (+1 to hit, +1,5 damage)
• +4 damage from melee damage

WF :

• +4 to hit from weapon proficiency
• +3 To hit from LoB
• +4 damage from

So basically Horc is +3 damage per hit, -5 to hit over WF.
It comes at the cost of 2 con and 1 or 2 racial toughness enhancements.

[K_0tiC]

Maxi on bb/dp alone with you kiting backwards in a circle swinging would produce much more dps even with that bb doing 50% dmg if the mob is saving for half every tick. 22hp or even 44hp doesnt make you able to tank unless your tanking raids on normal which I could do with my bank toon. A part time tank isnt worth a charcter slot to me your giving up a aura that debuffs everything by 2 lowers fort and raises damage from any holy weapons you swing for 22hp hardly a DPS gain right there.

Also if your running sands epics like you say you do you would know that you get disjuncted in a few different places like dq2 end fight leaver trap in chains of flames etc would mean you would have a charisma score of 14 with a ship buff which isnt even enough to cast the heal spell.

[Symerith]

I don't see an opinion here, I just see plain facts.

DP gives extra damage at a low SP cost, it's a no brainer. Without it DPS is going to be much lower (usually to the point that you will probably be using more resources due to a drawn out fight).

AoV is such a good PrE that every FvS has to have it (or they might as well go home). If DA comes out next update then there might be a choice but just for the fortification reduction alone it is a must have.

Finally, I don't see Improved Critical: Slashing in your feat line up, how can you use an eSoS and not power it with IC:S?????

If you've followed the Soul Survivor build you should note Sirgog's opinion that the build is basically dated in U11 where the tanking abilities are lack lustre (as the new raids (seem to) require true dedicated tanks). Another factor in this (at least for me) is the difficulty in satisfactorily fitting in AoV and the enhancements necessary to tank. At the moment the best FvS tanks have no melee power and just rely on shield mastery and DP for aggro generation.

1. About DP : You will use DP when you need it the most. And when do you need it the most? Against epic bosses when casting DP is expensive (dragon, TOD,...). Yes of course in theory you can use DP all the time, but for 99% of the fighting you will do, you won't use it (ie trash, low hp bosses; and for high hp bosses? You'll be healing mainly & save SP. I'm not just talking about boss DPS, I'm talking about all the DPS output you'll do. And in my experience and for my playstile, having threat gen. & +25% weapon dmge is better, by far.

2. The reason I didn't put IC:slash is because I haven't crafted my eSoS yet. I'm about to start a TR spree & I figured I would put it to use.

3. Also, by tanking I certainly did not mean tanking the new raids or elite TOD, but this toon can fill any tank role (elite vod, epic into the deep demon, etc.).

4. I agree the fort debuff is useful vs bosses but epic mobs die too fast to be debuffed, and that's what I'm fighting 90% of the time.

[K_0tiC]

This may be a stupid question but why WF ?
Horc offer a bit more damage per hit, at the cost of to hit, but allow taking another divinity that offer more than shield SLA. It also leave you more room with armor slot and avoid the healing penalty.

Quick comparison WF vs Horc (may be wrong please correct me) :
Horc :

• +2 Str Base (+1 to hit, +1,5 damage)
• +2 Str Enhancement (+1 to hit, +1,5 damage)
• +4 damage from melee damage

WF :

• +4 to hit from weapon proficiency
• +3 To hit from LoB
• +4 damage from

So basically Horc is +3 damage per hit, -5 to hit over WF.
It comes at the cost of 2 con and 1 or 2 racial toughness enhancements.

Ive never rolled a horc and on ugly factor reasoning never will, so im not sure do horc get pa enhancements like wf get -5 to hit +5 to damage from wf pa 3?

[nivarch]

Ive never rolled a horc and on ugly factor reasoning never will, so im not sure do horc get pa enhancements like wf get -5 to hit +5 to damage from wf pa 3?

They do so I left it out. Should have made it clear !

[K_0tiC]

They do so I left it out. Should have made it clear !

Also -5 to hit is a big factor even with just wf pa and I have alot of epic gear (abishi set/epic raven sight etc) I have to still for some epic trash/red names whip out my epic spectral gloves or ill be wiffing all over the place like a wizard with a great axe.

O and i forgot also without any diety to chose you dont get dr10 and miss out of the dmg things you pointed out which is pretty handy and bladesworn transformation but who else besides me is willing to be stupid and use it in battles hehe and also no aov without diety so loss of dps from shoulder cannon.

[Symerith]

Maxi on bb/dp alone with you kiting backwards in a circle swinging would produce much more dps even with that bb doing 50% dmg if the mob is saving for half every tick. 22hp or even 44hp doesnt make you able to tank unless your tanking raids on normal which I could do with my bank toon. A part time tank isnt worth a charcter slot to me your giving up a aura that debuffs everything by 2 lowers fort and raises damage from any holy weapons you swing for 22hp hardly a DPS gain right there.

Also if your running sands epics like you say you do you would know that you get disjuncted in a few different places like dq2 end fight leaver trap in chains of flames etc would mean you would have a charisma score of 14 with a ship buff which isnt even enough to cast the heal spell.

My cha is 27 right now, so 26.

So do tell me please when you will use DP & BB in, say.. epic cof. While the debuff might be nice & worth keeping, most of the mobs will save your BBs there & if they don't, how do you expect static archers to be kited?

If I wanted to BB/DP alone, I'd just roll an evoker and be done with it. This is not the goal of this build. Explain me how you will get that damage in a group. Seriously, if you have nothing constructive to say, get out of the thread. If your goal is to test me & criticize every aspect of the build, it's sad.

To make it clear, this build will be good at what it does. It's not a maxed build supposed to take advantage of every little thing the fvs class has to offer. Tanking from times to times, good melee output while maintaining all healing abilities. I don't need to rely on BB/DP to kill a boss a few seconds faster while draining mana.

[mute_mayhem]

O and i forgot also without any diety to chose you dont get dr10 and miss out of the dmg things you pointed out which is pretty handy and bladesworn transformation but who else besides me is willing to be stupid and use it in battles hehe and also no aov without diety so loss of dps from shoulder cannon.

Ehh?

H-orc FvS can choose either silver flame or sovereign host as their diety...

Bladesworn is absolutely useless, I don't know why you'd even bring it up as an argument for WF.

[Symerith]

Just to make it clear and avoid any useless posts, I did not start this thread to create a debate on the use of DP in end game content. This build is good at what it does.

This is obviously built for my playstyle (which I already explained) so I thought I would share it, give ppl another way of building a Lord of blades, and perhaps give ppl ideas on their own build.

Thanks for those who posted some good comments & feedback. If you have nothing constructive to say, please there is nothing for you here.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Edit: Just saw the OPs lastest post, still, I think what is below needs to be said.

2. The reason I didn't put IC:slash is because I haven't crafted my eSoS yet. I'm about to start a TR spree & I figured I would put it to use.

IC:S needs to be in the feat line up, just looks bad without it.

3. Also, by tanking I certainly did not mean tanking the new raids or elite TOD, but this toon can fill any tank role (elite vod, epic into the deep demon, etc.).

You don't fill any tank roll if you can't tank the content that needs a tank the most.

4. I agree the fort debuff is useful vs bosses but epic mobs die too fast to be debuffed, and that's what I'm fighting 90% of the time.

You get more than fort debuff with the aura. Vulnerability to alignment damage and lower SR will impact your parties ability to move through quite a lot of trash and becomes critical once you get to the boss.

1. About DP : You will use DP when you need it the most. And when do you need it the most? Against epic bosses when casting DP is expensive (dragon, TOD,...). Yes of course in theory you can use DP all the time, but for 99% of the fighting you will do, you won't use it (ie trash, low hp bosses; and for high hp bosses? You'll be healing mainly & save SP. I'm not just talking about boss DPS, I'm talking about all the DPS output you'll do. And in my experience and for my playstile, having threat gen. & +25% weapon dmge is better, by far.

It almost sounds like you've made this build because you couldn't adjust to the new mechanics of AoV and DP so simply cut them out to make it easier on yourself and now are trying to convince everyone that it was a logical choice.

Simply put, making a divine and not using DP is like making a melee and not taking PA.

Further, making a FvS and not taking AoV is like making a barb and not taking FB.

Doesn't make sense, regardless of how you dress it up.

[maha0201]

I'm now at lvl 17 on mine wf fvs i took
ady body, maximize, power attack, toughness, improved critical slashing, quicken, next lvl will be empower heal. Think i shouldn't take ady at 1 and if I'll ever do this kind of build again ill swap it with empower and switch to ady body at lvl 20.

Atm build is nice to play and i wondered what if i took horc instead, but i plan on spending a lot of ap for dr 14-15/ady And since i have AoVII now i would rely like to have it on cap to...

Edit: eSos and dod are here on him

[Symerith]

Edit: Just saw the OPs lastest post, still, I think what is below needs to be said.



IC:S needs to be in the feat line up, just looks bad without it.
Agreed, it's been edited.



You don't fill any tank roll if you can't tank the content that needs a tank the most.
We don't all run the same quests. I don't run the new raids, while I run a lot of VoD, Epic into the deep, and others where you don't need a tank build & where this toon will do very well as a tank who can self heal.



You get more than fort debuff with the aura. Vulnerability to alignment damage and lower SR will impact your parties ability to move through quite a lot of trash and becomes critical once you get to the boss.
Personally, the only places I would find it extremelly important are VS epic bosses, where I very rarely use DP & stay away from the fight to heal. I still have it on my toon, but I am considering getting rid of it & get full dmge boost, which I only have 2 tiers of.


It almost sounds like you've made this build because you couldn't adjust to the new mechanics of AoV and DP so simply cut them out to make it easier on yourself and now are trying to convince everyone that it was a logical choice.

Simply put, making a divine and not using DP is like making a melee and not taking PA.

Further, making a FvS and not taking AoV is like making a barb and not taking FB.

Doesn't make sense, regardless of how you dress it up.

Actually, this toon was LR to an evoker at some point, and I really enjoyed it. But for my playstyle and the raids/quests I do, it's not of utmost importance. I'm not trying to convince everyone, nor am I trying to start a debate on the use of DP in endgame.

I still have max/emp but when is it absolutely needed? You all said it's of utmost importance when give me examples! When does a healer need to use DP? It's a very useful toy but far from being required.

I'm not a healbot. I'm not an offensive caster. I'm a melee.

Not having DP on a WF melee doesn't make me a bad DPS. I'm a healer, remember? Being able to melee is a nice bonus to a healer. Do healers need DPS? Is it their primary role? And what's the primary role of a melee? Simple questions, simple answers. To a certain extent, there are some requirements on a melee (PA, DR breakers, use of certain abilities), and same for healers (Quicken, ardor clickies, heal scrolls,...) but being able to melee or offensive cast is just a nice bonus. I don't see how a WF fvs is gimped when he only choses to specialize in one of the two bonus abilities he has access to (ie offensive casting with DOTs & meleeing).

Not having PA on a melee makes it a bad DPS.
Not having FB on a barb makes it a bad DPS.

[K_0tiC]

My cha is 27 right now, so 26.

So do tell me please when you will use DP & BB in, say.. epic cof. While the debuff might be nice & worth keeping, most of the mobs will save your BBs there & if they don't, how do you expect static archers to be kited?

If I wanted to BB/DP alone, I'd just roll an evoker and be done with it. This is not the goal of this build. Explain me how you will get that damage in a group. Seriously, if you have nothing constructive to say, get out of the thread. If your goal is to test me & criticize every aspect of the build, it's sad.

To make it clear, this build will be good at what it does. It's not a maxed build supposed to take advantage of every little thing the fvs class has to offer. Tanking from times to times, good melee output while maintaining all healing abilities. I don't need to rely on BB/DP to kill a boss a few seconds faster while draining mana.

I didnt ask for your cha score right now I stated that when disjuncted without ship buffs and a +2 tome youll be sitting on a 14cha which means you cant even cast the heal spell, which is the base charisma you specified for your build here.

As for dp ill use it on every mob im hitting since I can just stand there and shield block to 4+ archers anytime I want 1-2k sp back in Ecof. I dont see anywhere your build is gaining dps over an AOV wf fvs lob if you can show me that ill stop picking at your post which clearer states @ the top post: Basically, for no mana use, you'll do more damage in melee than you'll do with your spells.
And for BB in e chains ill use it to kite hyenas/fighters and red names and to either kill or kite mephits while the rest of my group cleans up normal trash/casters first making for much fewer deaths to cometfalls and the like.

You are losing dps from the shoulder cannon + no debuffs from aov to fort/light dmg lowering sr for your groups caster and lowering mobs saves for holds and instant kills. So in red name fights where dps actually matters you are contributing much less by not being able to reduce raid boss fort by 10-50% + increase the dps of anyone swinging a weapon that has holy on it thats without you even casting dp or archon. Then you say your gaining dps can you show me where your dps gain is from a over a aov wf fvs I have all the same enhancement options you do but instead of wasting 12ap on things like 3dr Id much rather add to my dps and take stuff like aov and its requirements.

I dont know what kind of dps your dp is doing but 250~400base and 600~800 crits every 2seconds is hardly afew seconds faster on a raid or redname fight.