The Dark Knight - end game Paladin tank

[maddmatt70]

I am not sure your hate % numbers are making sense to me. I do not understand if the chimeras fang is different, but does not hate work similiarly to healing amp i.e. weapons do not stack with gear and similiar %s do not stack. I was just thinking about that VOD run we did and the way the hate worked in there with scain did not make sense to me.

You have the brawn's spirit 10% hate and the claw set 20% hate would not you want to drop greater mark of the sentenial for skill focus intimidate thus making it so e-fang is 15% hate and all three stack? As a nice bonus you would save enhancement points and your intimidate goes up +1. I already swapped a feat last night but was thinking that I should swap weapon proficiency khopesh for skill focus intimidate instead of greater dragonmark of the sentenial when my time period is up again.

Edit: I reread the descrption and 2 marks would just give 10% hate...hmm what a weird weapon.

[Dark-Star]

Yes it was an interesting experiment.

Scain is a level 20 Stalwart Defender with incite from the PrE (if it was on) and at least another +20% incite from the Epic Claw set. He has the Shintao set, Encrusted set, Greater Abashai set, a crafted +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane in his main hand, and Tier 3 Alchemical Khopesh in his off hand, huge strength, double strike from the fighter capstone and the alchemical weapon, haste boost 4 and warforged power attack. Basically the perfect SD DPS set up on an exceptional player. I asked every player to go hard right away with little to no pausing before engaging.

In that VoD, Scain pulled aggro twice I believe (could have been three times), once when I was chained, and once when he and I started swinging pretty close to the same time. Keep in mind I was pausing my melee swings to remove my curses and heal myself. Both times intim pulled it right back. I was not using Divine Righteousness until the bats, as I wanted to test the threshold of my hate while missing some swings from removing the cursing and from self healing.

Compare that to the EDA run you and I did when you had your fighter tank and I had my less than perfectly geared barbarian with just 10% incite. Granted the incite on your fighter is a lot less (I think), but it gives us some frame of reference for comparison.

No build is going to hold aggro 100% of the time in every situation against every type of player, but why not try to have the most hate possible? In cases of aggro swap, that is what no fail intimidate is for.

As to dropping Sentinel feats to take SF: Intim, etc., I am at max intim already (and will add 2 more from favor soon(tm) ). Don't see the need if one has the gear. I might swap a feat for the "other" feat you and I discussed, but I don't want to post about that yet until I try it. The Senitnel feats also make the Epic Chimera's Fang +10, and gives +50% stacking fortification and gives another 20% hate, not 10%.

I don't think we will ever know how hate stacks unless a dev tells us outright. Unlike healing amp, it is not something that we can see, nor test easily. Either it works like you state, or it could work like con-op, where weapons and items stack.

If I had to guess I'd say you are right, but until I know definitely, I am taking every bit of incite I can get.

[maddmatt70]

Yes it was an interesting experiment.

Scain is a level 20 Stalwart Defender with incite from the PrE (if it was on) and at least another +20% incite from the Epic Claw set. He has the Shintao set, Encrusted set, Greater Abashai set, a crafted +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane in his main hand, and Tier 3 Alchemical Khopesh in his off hand, huge strength, double strike from the fighter capstone and the alchemical weapon, haste boost 4 and warforged power attack. Basically the perfect SD DPS set up on an exceptional player. I asked every player to go hard right away with little to no pausing before engaging.

In that VoD, Scain pulled aggro twice I believe (could have been three times), once when I was chained, and once when he and I started swinging pretty close to the same time. Keep in mind I was pausing my melee swings to remove my curses and heal myself. Both times intim pulled it right back. I was not using Divine Righteousness until the bats, as I wanted to test the threshold of my hate while missing some swings from removing the cursing and from self healing.

Compare that to the EDA run you and I did when you had your fighter tank and I had my less than perfectly geared barbarian with just 10% incite. Granted the incite on your fighter is a lot less (I think), but it gives us some frame of reference for comparison.

No build is going to hold aggro 100% of the time in every situation against every type of player, but why not try to have the most hate possible? In cases of aggro swap, that is what no fail intimidate is for.

As to dropping Sentinel feats to take SF: Intim, etc., I am at max intim already (and will add 2 more from favor soon(tm) ). Don't see the need if one has the gear. I might swap a feat for the "other" feat you and I discussed, but I don't want to post about that yet until I try it. The Senitnel feats also make the Epic Chimera's Fang +10, and gives +50% stacking fortification and gives another 20% hate, not 10%.

I don't think we will ever know how hate stacks unless a dev tells us outright. Unlike healing amp, it is not something that we can see, nor test easily. Either it works like you state, or it could work like con-op, where weapons and items stack.

If I had to guess I'd say you are right, but until I know definitely, I am taking every bit of incite I can get.

Well I will have to take the 3rd dragon mark for the 15% there is just no way around it. The way the chimeras fang works is it grants 10% incite, 15% incite, & 20% incite which it seems pretty obvious to me after yesterday does not stack with any other 10%, 15%, 20% incite sources that are gear because if they did no way scain or anyone else would have pulled aggro from you with your gear set-up. On my pally I could throw the pally tower ring set for 15% incite and use 2 marks for 10% incite with the 20% incite from epic claw set, but that would mean no ravager set and +2 less enhancement on the chimera's fang.

For my fighter I had 10% incite from brawn's spirit and 20% incite from epic claw set and was in stalwart stance while wielding a min2 dwarf axe with a ton of gear and you pulled aggro from me even when I had a headstart which is disconcerting. Now just last night I made a DT armor which has X(will be 10% heal amp), 15% incite, destruction so I should have 10% 15% 20% incite which hopefully will be enough. The epic lob my fighter did decent in so figure just a little bit more maybe who knows.

Edit: by the way an SD only gets incite in stance while using a shield.

[ThePrincipal]

"When I started to read your build I was suprised~~ 900+ hp/84 intimidate/350+ cure, but then I sensed that...no AC.

No offence just wanna discuss pally tanks since Im making one myself"

No AC because he wants to get hit, so the conop/torc proc, generating mana in which to heal/overheal himself in an endless cycle of invulnerability.

If you have the gear, youre basically immortal. However, that gear list would take a new player 18 months to get. By that time you'll have been long bored and the game will have changed enough that you'll have him permaparked.

[sweez]

No AC because he wants to get hit, so the conop/torc proc, generating mana in which to heal/overheal himself in an endless cycle of invulnerability.

No AC because it's useless in the content he made the build for.

[voodoogroves]

Silly question.

You're abandoning AC right?


Any thought to making that a monk2 split for a shade more amp, animal path and evasion? You'd lose haste boost and STR 1 (and it may muck with your leveling order).

EDIT: Scratch that, you also lose Tower Shield prof. My bad.

[cave_diver]

Silly question.

....................
Any thought to making that a monk2 split for a shade more amp, animal path and evasion? You'd lose haste boost and STR 1 (and it may muck with your leveling order).

EDIT: Scratch that, you also lose Tower Shield prof. My bad.

I will be building a slight variant of this build using 2 monk, I plan to master's touch for tower shield prof. ( i lose out on haste boost, fighter str), gain evasion when needed....since I don't plan on running E-LOB as often as OP.

[voodoogroves]

I will be building a slight variant of this build using 2 monk, I plan to master's touch for tower shield prof. ( i lose out on haste boost, fighter str), gain evasion when needed....since I don't plan on running E-LOB as often as OP.

Even better.

I've got a dude I just TR'd and I'm unhappy with the way he's sitting right now, was thinking of LRing him into a more tanky type since I seem to be sitting on fang/crown/etc. bits. He's a 2monk/pal-rest split right now.

[RTN]

I am not sure your hate % numbers are making sense to me. I do not understand if the chimeras fang is different, but does not hate work similiarly to healing amp i.e. weapons do not stack with gear and similiar %s do not stack. I was just thinking about that VOD run we did and the way the hate worked in there with scain did not make sense to me.

You have the brawn's spirit 10% hate and the claw set 20% hate would not you want to drop greater mark of the sentenial for skill focus intimidate thus making it so e-fang is 15% hate and all three stack? As a nice bonus you would save enhancement points and your intimidate goes up +1. I already swapped a feat last night but was thinking that I should swap weapon proficiency khopesh for skill focus intimidate instead of greater dragonmark of the sentenial when my time period is up again.

Edit: I reread the descrption and 2 marks would just give 10% hate...hmm what a weird weapon.

When the changes to the Sentinel epics were being made, I PM'd some devs about this specifically and got the following answer:

"Like many bonus types, Incite bonuses will stack if and only if the values are different: for instance, Incite 10% stacks with Incite 15% or Incite 20%. But Incite 20% will not stack with another Incite 20% bonus, so I'm afraid the eFang's Incite 20% bonus doesn't stack with the Epic Claw's Incite 20%."

Edit: I was specifically asking due to the different terminology on items (sometimes "Incite" and sometimes "Threat"), but it is clear that the Devs treat them the same on these items.

[Dark-Star]

When the changes to the Sentinel epics were being made, I PM'd some devs about this specifically and got the following answer:

"Like many bonus types, Incite bonuses will stack if and only if the values are different: for instance, Incite 10% stacks with Incite 15% or Incite 20%. But Incite 20% will not stack with another Incite 20% bonus, so I'm afraid the eFang's Incite 20% bonus doesn't stack with the Epic Claw's Incite 20%."

Edit: I was specifically asking due to the different terminology on items (sometimes "Incite" and sometimes "Threat"), but it is clear that the Devs treat them the same on these items.

Thanks, this is welcomed insight.

That fact and learning that Tower Shield can be Masters Touch-ed will cause me to review the build design (when I have the time).

Really appreciate both posts, this is what allows us to fine tune builds towards perfection.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

When the changes to the Sentinel epics were being made, I PM'd some devs about this specifically and got the following answer:

"Like many bonus types, Incite bonuses will stack if and only if the values are different: for instance, Incite 10% stacks with Incite 15% or Incite 20%. But Incite 20% will not stack with another Incite 20% bonus, so I'm afraid the eFang's Incite 20% bonus doesn't stack with the Epic Claw's Incite 20%."

We know 20% of eFang will not stack with 20% on eClaw. But..here is the question...
Will 20% Incite on a weapon, stack with 20% Incite on a second weapon (if TWF'ing)?

If *no* then it makes no sense to tank with a pair of +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopeshes of Incite 20%.

[sephiroth1084]

That fact and learning that Tower Shield can be Masters Touch-ed will cause me to review the build design (when I have the time).

You may want to inquire with a dev as to whether that is WAI. As per the description, Master's Touch shouldn't be doing that, so it may be subject to changing in the future. I think it's reasonable for it to be an option, but wouldn't want to see you make dramatic alterations to this character only to find out that you have to change back, because the devs finally got around to addressing a long-standing issue without warning.

[RTN]

We know 20% of eFang will not stack with 20% on eClaw. But..here is the question...
Will 20% Incite on a weapon, stack with 20% Incite on a second weapon (if TWF'ing)?

If *no* then it makes no sense to tank with a pair of +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopeshes of Incite 20%.

The quotation seems to clearly answer that. It won't stack.

[Dark-Star]

Got a PM I thought was a great idea:

Hi Dark-Star,

Just wanted to suggest that since you don't really care about the AC, you could drop the +5 on the crafted shield and put a +4 instead, which would enable the possibility of putting a 33% fire/electric absorption, which would be a great addition to the shield.

Final shield would be either:

+4 Life Shield Tower Shield of Electrical Absorption, 33%
or
+4 Life Shield Tower Shield of Fire Absorption, 33%
or make them both for more situationnal possibility

Thanks!

[voodoogroves]

Got a PM I thought was a great idea:



Thanks!

That is an excellent idea ... then you can look like the dude on the splash screen taking the breath on his shield ;-)

[Myrdinn]

Can this build tank EADQ?

[Dark-Star]

It has been a while since I ran Darkstaar in EDQ2, but my recollection is that her aggro mechanic is funky, meaning it switches a lot. I would have to test it again, but if any build can this one can as well.

[grodon9999]

It has been a while since I ran Darkstaar in EDQ2, but my recollection is that her aggro mechanic is funky, meaning it switches a lot. I would have to test it again, but if any build can this one can as well.

She's tankable now, you'd probably be ideal for it.

[voodoogroves]

She's tankable now, you'd probably be ideal for it.

I've worked her with a pally splash solo on lower difficulties - that lawful and good bit can be kinda painful. An evasion high-amp neutral would be better, though I know a pally can do it (the incoming is just more)

[kanbeki]

any thoughts on using fleshshapers brigadine with obsession on this build? It generates a good bit of hate