The Dark Knight - end game Paladin tank

[etelan]

Nice build. Very similar to my paladin and just about as difficult to gear out. Only differences are I built including AC and capstone, but not nearly as nice self-healing.

[etelan]

One other note. Did you know that healing amp works on silver flame pots? Just thinking those 3 feats are awfully expensive.

[Nick_RC]

Couple quick notes mate,

Looks great and its nice to see it all put togeather after we have chatted about it.

1. I think 10%/20%/destruction DT armor will be better than the D chain after the patch for tanking. Worth considering. Just between you and I, I dont even think its necessary for a main tank to wear any of the dps tod sets unless its adding threat that you need. At the end of the day whats 2 points of damage a swing when you got decent base dmg and 400% threat anyway? Hotswap while in dps more sure. Not for tanking. I'd have a play around see if you can fit any nice utility into those options.

2. Did they make chimeras crown stack with shroud hp? I know on llama it didnt originally. Are you wearing both and able to test it?

3. I just dont know about that 18 con. Do you think its the very best way to spend those stat points?

4. Make sure you carry silver flame pots as well, water jumping + chaos + healers that migth be having a bad day means you want some for when ur in the water.

Looks great I am just not to sure on the gear setup atm.

N

[etelan]

Couple quick notes mate,

2. Did they make chimeras crown stack with shroud hp? I know on llama it didnt originally. Are you wearing both and able to test it?

I run with these and they stack.

[sephiroth1084]

For LOB atm no AC is understandable but the problem is what u have got for losing all the ACs?....350+ self heal....actually its really not that helpful in epic or elite LOB for a tank imo...
if you die with 900+ hp its either your healer's problem or your own tank skills problem~that self heal will only save you in some quite uncommon situations.Cuz damages in epic LOB are way too high.

Pretty sure that's an allure of the build for the rest of the time. I know that I really enjoy having my 200 point self-heals (no Empower Healing, no Claw Gloves) for soloing, non-raiding, raiding emergencies and for the option to tank a boss without a babysitter (Jailer in ToD 1, Sulu in VoD or ToD 3, etc...), at least for a little while.

PS: sephiroth1084 said his pally can get to 90 AC with proper gears/buffs.yes but for this dark knight(actually you are more like bright knight since u cure yourself with positive energy lol)its quite impossible.it takes this build 5 feats and 12 AP to get the healing ability.(AP is really in short for pally, I could use 160 or more if there is no limits -_- ) And u cant miss any gear for AC build, especially armor or shield.this one doesnt look like to be able to switch to AC tank easily

Really, all he would need to do is swap some gear around. The only feats he's missing versus my build are Dodge, the Fighter Past Life and Combat Expertise, which I rarely turn on anyway. My 90 AC figure was with Power Attack, not CE.

So, he's basically 2 AC down from my build most of the time. Well, and another 2 from his lower Dex (counting the Fighter PL as the other +1 although it's a Dex issue). So, with the same gear as Ferrumrym, Dark could be at ~86, which is a little low for Elite Horoth, but still very useful, and is near-perfect protection versus all of the other pre-U11 elite raid bosses and some stuff on epic. I haven't gotten to try the new raids yet, but I hear that the to-hit values are around the same level as Hard Horoth on normal, Elite Horoth on hard and basically impossible on elite and epic, which is disappointing--hope the devs change that.

As for my gear, I'm currently wearing in AC mode:
Epic Helm of Frost
Torc-->soon to be Epic Grim's Bracelet
Bloodstone-->hopefully Epic Brawn's Spirits soon
Mineral II cloak w/Wiz VI, +35 HP, +1 Cha skills (may swap this to an Epic Envenomed Cloak if I feel that I can take the HP hit...should actually be a loss of only 15 HP)
Belt of the DoS
Epic Charged Gauntlets
Epic Boots of Corrosion (except when tanking Horoth)
Chaosgarde Bracers if not tanking Horoth; Epic Scorched Bracers (-2 AC) otherwise...if I swap to the epic cloak this won't be an issue-->hoping for Bracelet of Tharaak here full time
Conc-Opp goggles w/ +10 HP, +150 SP, +5 Cha skills
Chattering Ring-->Epic Ring of the Silver Concord soon
Band of Siberys w/ 20% healing amp
Epic Cavalry Plate (very similar to the Deneith Chain)
Epic Swashbuckler (+4 Insight AC; replicated by the Epic Fang is the biggy here)
Epic Cutlass (20% threat replicated by Fang, +15 intimidate covered by Brawn's)

If going with the Helm, Cloak, Boots Abishai set, could drop Brawn's and the Charged Gauntlets for the Epic Gem of Many Facets and Epic Gloves of the Claw for -2 AC, -15 Intimidate (could always swap in an intim item quickly when needed), -10% hate, -1 green augment slot for +4 damage, +20% hate (not sure if it stacks with source from Fang), +30% healing amp, ability to swap in Brawn's for +25 intimidate vs. my current +15 or +20 with Brawn's and no Claw). If to-hit is an issue, could also put on the Epic Raven's Sight for +4 to-hit, -10 HP, -150 SP (not a big deal into a battle), -5 Cha skills and loss of the Conc-Op proc (not a huge deal with someone else healing).

Losing the Torc for Grim's hurts, but, in my case at least, I plan on hanging onto the old gear to swap back to in case I need to be seriously self-healing and need the mana regen.

[Nick_RC]

I run with these and they stack.

Great good to know.

[xTethx]

1. I think 10%/20%/destruction DT armor will be better than the D chain after the patch for tanking. Worth considering

None of that stacks with his Chimeras Fang.

[maddmatt70]

Really lay out the ac gear vs. the healing amp/dr/dps gear and you will see that you lose quite a bit when you go with ac gear. The OP is spot on when he talks about in LOB changing roles from defensive to offensive quickly is pretty important in LOB. Really on epic lob its close to essential to have two tanks maybe someday when the healer/main tank get good enough you can get away with one tank, but it is right now fairly essential to have two tanks and they should be able to swap between offensive and defensive roles fairly easily. LOB is really the main raid right now whereas the Tower raid is not an important raid because it is has been out for quite awhile so folks really need to move on in their way of thinking about tanks to what works in Lord of Blades and Master Artificer. Those are the main two raids right now.

I wish you could fit in a higher divine might cleen that is my biggest complaint of your build. Perhaps when you get close to fullly tomed out you could lr your charisma higher and swap your enhancements around.

[Dark-Star]

When I started to read your build I was suprised~~ 900+ hp/84 intimidate/350+ cure, but then I sensed that...no AC.

No offence just wanna discuss pally tanks since Im making one myself

For LOB atm no AC is understandable but the problem is what u have got for losing all the ACs?....350+ self heal....actually its really not that helpful in epic or elite LOB for a tank imo...
if you die with 900+ hp its either your healer's problem or your own tank skills problem~that self heal will only save you in some quite uncommon situations.Cuz damages in epic LOB are way too high.
You may even get more damage than u can afford during the time you are healing self.when its not that dangerous your healer should take the responsibility to heal u.
Well its still quite useful since not every healer has an super quick hand.For my build I cant really self heal while tanking but 260+ scroll heal is available(much slower than quickened cure I know) and 1000+ hp LoH(only 1 shot -_- they really should add cha mod to the charges)
350+ quick self heal is quite impressive and useful in any raid before U11 where u wont get killed in seconds(costs u 57 sp each cure though~say hi to sp pots).And the problem is AC is more useful than self heal in any raid before U11...

so much about AC... several points else Im confused about here
1. to-hit
+10 from chimera compared to normal +6 epic weapons.but I dont see you have +4 AB items~~so I think your to-hit will be sitting around 54 buffed am I right?LOB has 64-69 AC said by wiki.My build is a bit lower than yours(even with 3 fighter PL sadly)...wonder if this is enough for epic.

2. DR breaker
Since u gave up AC for LOB~LOB should be ur main raid target?if u have a artificer in group there is no problem.if not u have to use scroll to bypass adamantine part of DR...it lasts for 6 mins.in epic u will have a very long fight.To recast it ur self(have to switch ur chimera to off hand first) or have another player do it both may cost extra problems in such a chaotic raid.

3. The 2 fighter lvls
Its an end game tank epic geared I suppose monk class access is available?Im so confused why u didnt pick 2 monk lvls?u have at least 43 reflex which can negates blades rain/comet fall/BB in LOB and lots of other spells/traps/xxxx in other raids.Plus 2 monk lvls still give u 2 feats..why not?ur hate wont be a problem....for a tank I think evasion is much useful than haste boost I.

4. How are u going to solve the -10% total hp debuff from each hit of LOB in epic?
actually this is unsolved to any melee single tank...yet.If we use 2-3 melee tank to switch aggro I think extreme AC tank will last longer....(like 110+ AC -_- fully holy buffed sick turtle with some monk wisdom trick...)And in this case your self heal wont help much, even if they lower his AB to 90 or lower where AC tank can single tank it.I dont really think they will lower the proc chances of -10% hp too much in epic.

PS: sephiroth1084 said his pally can get to 90 AC with proper gears/buffs.yes but for this dark knight(actually you are more like bright knight since u cure yourself with positive energy lol)its quite impossible.it takes this build 5 feats and 12 AP to get the healing ability.(AP is really in short for pally, I could use 160 or more if there is no limits -_- ) And u cant miss any gear for AC build, especially armor or shield.this one doesnt look like to be able to switch to AC tank easily

I'll try and address your questions as best I can.

No one is a bigger AC fan than I am. However the fact is that the devs have chosen to not have AC matter at current end game (ELoB). Yes it works on elite ToD, but that is no longer end game, and this build tanks that raid superbly as is. Last outing on hard I had one FvS healing me, and myself patching here and there. He used 800/2,800 mana, and most of that was from healing the add killers. I would love to see AC return, but as of now it is meaningless, and the game requires massive hit points.

As to self healing, there is no way you will scroll heal yourself tanking ELoB, none. Your concentration will be far too low. This build can self heal while attacking or blocking, as well as reapply buffs.

To hit is not an issue, especially after destruction hits. In cases where it is, one can safely turn off power attack for a bit. The party is doing the lion's share of the DPS, you are the tank.

We have no issue with someone scrolling adamantine weapons. ELoB is a buff heavy raid, just the way it's built.

Two monk was my original consideration. In the end, fighter was the better choice. +1 to hit (and slightly faster attack speed at full BaB), the use of Epic Denith Chain (or Cove plate) for the temporary HPs, ftr str and haste boost, and 2 monk left one feat short - tower shield. Once I had commited for not building for AC, fighter was a clearly better choice, also allowing me to dump wis and dex for more con str and cha. With that reflex score I am saving for half on the LoB's spells, that is not going to kill me at 900+ HPs.

On surviving the HP debuff... well you will have to run with us to see what we do there .

Yes with gear swaps you can get decent AC, but for ELoB 90 AC might as well be 0 AC.

[Dark-Star]

Couple quick notes mate,

Looks great and its nice to see it all put togeather after we have chatted about it.

1. I think 10%/20%/destruction DT armor will be better than the D chain after the patch for tanking. Worth considering. Just between you and I, I dont even think its necessary for a main tank to wear any of the dps tod sets unless its adding threat that you need. At the end of the day whats 2 points of damage a swing when you got decent base dmg and 400% threat anyway? Hotswap while in dps more sure. Not for tanking. I'd have a play around see if you can fit any nice utility into those options.

2. Did they make chimeras crown stack with shroud hp? I know on llama it didnt originally. Are you wearing both and able to test it?

3. I just dont know about that 18 con. Do you think its the very best way to spend those stat points?

4. Make sure you carry silver flame pots as well, water jumping + chaos + healers that migth be having a bad day means you want some for when ur in the water.

Looks great I am just not to sure on the gear setup atm.

N

1. On the armor, I have 20%healing amp already on a ToD ring, so DT would only net +10%. I'd rather have SFL and Life Shield. As to Destruction, it comes on the Epic Chimera's Fang already.

2. As noted, the Crown stacks now.

3. On 18 con, I am open to your ideas. I went through my logic on page 2, but if there is a better way you see it let me know.

4. I have a number of character I need to run that favor for, good call for sure.

If you have alternate gear ideas, would love to hear them.

[Dark-Star]

Really lay out the ac gear vs. the healing amp/dr/dps gear and you will see that you lose quite a bit when you go with ac gear. The OP is spot on when he talks about in LOB changing roles from defensive to offensive quickly is pretty important in LOB. Really on epic lob its close to essential to have two tanks maybe someday when the healer/main tank get good enough you can get away with one tank, but it is right now fairly essential to have two tanks and they should be able to swap between offensive and defensive roles fairly easily. LOB is really the main raid right now whereas the Tower raid is not an important raid because it is has been out for quite awhile so folks really need to move on in their way of thinking about tanks to what works in Lord of Blades and Master Artificer. Those are the main two raids right now.

I wish you could fit in a higher divine might cleen that is my biggest complaint of your build. Perhaps when you get close to fullly tomed out you could lr your charisma higher and swap your enhancements around.

I agree with your comments above. Going AC, when you really look at the gear and numbers, requires a good bit of sacrifice.

As to higher Divine Might, it would in some ways be nice. However, this is a tank build first and DPS second. Also DM is VERY slow casting, to the point where I only hit it selectively now. They need to change it to be fast activating, and buff it up a bit, then I might swap things around to take more of it. It also shares your Divine Righteousness uses.

[etelan]

I agree with your comments above. Going AC, when you really look at the gear and numbers, requires a good bit of sacrifice.

Check out my build sometime. Same healing amp, threat, and dps as the Dark Knight, but with 87ac. I have a plan to cross 90 when they fix the alchemical shields.

[esheep]

I was wondering why no Epic Cavalry Plate... seems to offer more than Epic Heavy Chain from house D...

[Dark-Star]

Check out my build sometime. Same healing amp, threat, and dps as the Dark Knight, but with 87ac. I have a plan to cross 90 when they fix the alchemical shields.

I think you created a very nice build, and obviously put a lot of thought in to it.

The Dark Knight goes in a bit of a different direction and will have better self healing, more hit points, higher hate with the Denith Marks, fighter haste boost, no fail intim and slightly higher to hit at the cost of a chunk of AC and the capstone.

Both builds have their strengths and weaknesses, this one is not built for AC since AC is meaningless for the content I run, but to be an example of what a Paladin can be capable of in tanking the hardest content in the game. Were I to build for elite ToD, or other content from previous mods and updates, the class splits, gear and design would look a lot different.

Not to say your Paladin build is not a good direction to go in, just apples and oranges.

[Dark-Star]

I was wondering why no Epic Cavalry Plate... seems to offer more than Epic Heavy Chain from house D...

Epic Cavalry Plate is a fine choice for armor as well. As to being better I am not sure.

It offers +1 more resist over the slotted +4. It has DR5/Chaotic which I think is inferior to DR5/Epic. It has one slot vs. the Denith Chain's two, and lacks the +15 Vertigo, which I am finding quite nice.

It's biggest advantage is that it has a Demonic Curse proc, which will stack with the temporrary hit points of Life Shield from the craftable tower shield.

I own a set and will be testing it more, as I have read mixed reports on the proc rate of Curse, and I know Life Shield to be very reliable at 10%.

Can't go wrong if Epic Cavalry Plate is what you have to work with.

[Ziindarax]

Actually, I am still rather curious. Have you ever tried to run an epic quest solo (that didn't have traps btw) with the dark knight? I ask (yes, I know you're "supposed" to use a Favored Soul/Arcane) because the build strikes me as capable of fighting epic mobs by him/herself, and not fail.

[ReveredCat]

I'll try and address your questions as best I can.

No one is a bigger AC fan than I am. However the fact is that the devs have chosen to not have AC matter at current end game (ELoB). Yes it works on elite ToD, but that is no longer end game, and this build tanks that raid superbly as is. Last outing on hard I had one FvS healing me, and myself patching here and there. He used 800/2,800 mana, and most of that was from healing the add killers. I would love to see AC return, but as of now it is meaningless, and the game requires massive hit points.

As to self healing, there is no way you will scroll heal yourself tanking ELoB, none. Your concentration will be far too low. This build can self heal while attacking or blocking, as well as reapply buffs.

To hit is not an issue, especially after destruction hits. In cases where it is, one can safely turn off power attack for a bit. The party is doing the lion's share of the DPS, you are the tank.

We have no issue with someone scrolling adamantine weapons. ELoB is a buff heavy raid, just the way it's built.

Two monk was my original consideration. In the end, fighter was the better choice. +1 to hit (and slightly faster attack speed at full BaB), the use of Epic Denith Chain (or Cove plate) for the temporary HPs, ftr str and haste boost, and 2 monk left one feat short - tower shield. Once I had commited for not building for AC, fighter was a clearly better choice, also allowing me to dump wis and dex for more con str and cha. With that reflex score I am saving for half on the LoB's spells, that is not going to kill me at 900+ HPs.

On surviving the HP debuff... well you will have to run with us to see what we do there .

Yes with gear swaps you can get decent AC, but for ELoB 90 AC might as well be 0 AC.

I thought it over then found it that you were right.I couldnt really resist the temptation of 300-400 self quick cure...so I changed my plan~lower my hp to 900 for self cure...
The good news is besides hp I wont lose anything...still have 87 AC without any other classes' buff.100 AC with songs/recitation and AC boost
My major problem is still there though...56 to-hit without PA/combat expertise, I cant improve it anymore...sigh~cha mod build is not welcomed atm.

[etelan]

The Dark Knight goes in a bit of a different direction and will have better self healing, more hit points, higher hate with the Denith Marks, fighter haste boost, no fail intim and slightly higher to hit at the cost of a chunk of AC and the capstone.

I used to carry the D marks, but never needed the extra incite. I'll give you the self healing, hit points, and haste boost. I was just pointing out that you actually don't have to sacrifice much for AC. Our gear is very similar. Also, mine does include no-fail intimidate for epics (as far as I can tell they are identical minus +3 points dragonmark enhancement which I used to carry and -1 for only +5cha skills). A couple of points i didn't see you add in the 84 calc was for ship buffs, yugo pot, house d pots, monk buff, and bard buff.

In theory I should be able to get the self healing, etc... as well just by splashing fighter and dropping the capstone. That's 3 feat slots which could pick up the healing metas. Granted 90 AC is still useless in epic LoB, but possible with minimal sacrifice.

[azmodeus1]

like the build, looks pretty solid.

but also as was stated, high hp, high amp SF pots are usually enough for self heals if needed, you'd have the stats to not go incap,

why do you think the self spell healing is worth it/feats?

[Dark-Star]

like the build, looks pretty solid.

but also as was stated, high hp, high amp SF pots are usually enough for self heals if needed, you'd have the stats to not go incap,

why do you think the self spell healing is worth it/feats?

A fair question.

I don't see a potion that gives a con penalty, -5 to hit and damage, -5 to saves and -5 to intim as a viable solution when tanking the epic Lord of Blades.

Unlimited quickened self healing with zero draw backs is far better (unlimited mana with Torc and con-op when tankning him). This also allows you to heal others, something else the potion does not do.

That's not to say you cannot use both if very desperate times.