The Dark Knight - end game Paladin tank

[aristarchus1000]

Nice build.

Has balance been any problem at all in the new content?

No umd? I guess it isn't needed, bu I would seem nice to fit it into a build that uses charisma.

[Dark-Star]

Is the 6 build points to get from 16 to 18 constitution really that valuable? Wouldn't they be better spent getting to 16 base charisma (for a possible 20 charisma after +4 tome for DMIV) and intelligence up enough for UMD?

What are you skills? I see enough skill points for 2 skills maxed with 18 more from the +3 tome (8 more if you use a +1 tome at level 3).

Max balance I assume?

Is it worth splashing fighter just for the maximised, empowered, quickened cure serious wounds spells?

Is it worth having maximised, empowered, quickened cure serious wounds spells when instead you could have GTHF'ing and the associated glancing blows?

All good questions.

I feel the +2 con is worth it for a number of reasons. Intim is already no fail, and there is not room for divine might beyond DMI in the build, so no need for more charisma. +1 to hit and damage from 18 strength is not needed for a tank like this, or let me say the relative difference is not noticable.

I wanted to push above 900 hit points as tanking the new ELoB can be very demanding. There is a debuff that slowly strips away your hit points over time as you tank, and it's not uncommon to go from 900+ to 500ish even without a death. Every bit of hit points matter; a tank's two jobs are to hold aggro and stay alive.

Humans get an extra skill point racially, so three skill points to spend, and eventually 4 after level 11 with the +3 tome. Intim, UMD and balance are what I took.

Taking the meta feats was something I thought a great deal about. Increased glancing blow damage is not needed to hold aggro. Twitching while using a two hander will do more damage than glancing blows on a build like this.

Extend is something a lot of paladins take, but I have found quicken to be better as it allows one to refresh Zeal and Divine Favor any time you want, even when tanking.

In practice, a maximized, empower healing-ed, quicikened cure serious wounds spell with a +75% Ardor potion, with paladin devotion III and 200%+ healing amp means each cast hits for 350-365+. I can cast it about every 3 seconds, and with a Torc and Con Op item I do not run out of mana when tanking. While I run with some of the best healers in the game, no one is perfect 100% of the time, and being able to patch myself or someone else has meant the difference between living and dying on many occasions. Plus, I have an unfair reputation for being out of range of haste and heals ... In short, the self healing one of the biggest assets of the build.

[Dark-Star]

Nice build.

Has balance been any problem at all in the new content?

No umd? I guess it isn't needed, bu I would seem nice to fit it into a build that uses charisma.

I took both balance and UMD.

Balance has so far not been an issue. Freedom of Movement, blocking at times and high saves have been enough to keep me on my feet.

UMD is in the 30's with this gear set up. A few swaps could get it within no fail Heal scroll territory, but like you said, not a strong need for that unless you are playing healer.

[wax_on_wax_off]

In short, the self healing one of the biggest assets of the build.

It's worth splashing to be able to do this? Capstone is pretty nice ...

[weedf16]

For those of us that don't have access to E fang and crown, can you suggest alternate feats to replace the DM's until said gear can be obtained?

[BlackSteel]

It's worth splashing to be able to do this? Capstone is pretty nice ...

i'd vote yes.

self cures that potent are more than worth the couple extra damage dice from the capstone, or the 300 odd HP more that a fighter defender could get.

[Dark-Star]

Splashing gives:

Net three feats (you get Tower Shield Proficiency for free, which is a must).
Fighter Haste Boost.
+1 strength from fighter strength I.

Staying pure you would have to drop either the healing feats, which I consider essential, or the Marks, making your intim no longer no fail, losing you 20 HPs from the Epic Chimera's Crown, 30 spell resistance from the Crown; +4 resists, 35% hate and +4 to hit and damage from your Epic Chimera's Fang.

The Paladin Capstone is nice, not so much for the damage but for breaking DR. For this build, Lawful Evil Outsider DR is inately broken on the Chimera's Fang, which is what you will be using when tanking. In DPS mode DR is broken with the Epic Antique Great Axe, or if you are fortunate slot a Devil's Ruin augment in your ESOS.

[Dark-Star]

For those of us that don't have access to E fang and crown, can you suggest alternate feats to replace the DM's until said gear can be obtained?

Skill Focus: Intim, Bull Headed, Improved Sunder.

[maddmatt70]

Not sure I agree with tower shields are a must they just provide 5% more blocking which is not a ton more then large shields. Not sure about hp either when compared to dm 2 or 3 we have tank in guild who does great job with 850ish hp. Not sure if improved shield mastery wouldnt be worth it with tower shield for that matter looking at the other side of the coin. What have yeah..

[Ziindarax]

I find this build to be intriguing. My questions are these:

1) What is defender of Siberys for?

2) What would be your AC by level 20?

3) Could I get away with having a charisma skill lit2 mana bracer (since I don't have the claw set, nor am I lucky enough to get them).

4) Could this build solo any epic quests so that they are able to get their own scrolls/seals (in particular for the bracer claws).

5) Would a greensteel hp item work?

6) What do enhanced and negative level from DoS mean?

7) What's your ending UMD with this build?

8) Can you hit epic mobs/raid bosses/Malicia with your self-buffed str (noting that not everyone is able to unlock yugo pots)?

9) Where are you getting +3 exceptional to both strength and constitution from - the rings?

[Ziindarax]

Oh, and +1 for posting an impressive build.

[stainer]

I kind of be expecting that... would figure that each item you have active gets a roll for proc. Even those not stacking effects overwrite the previous proc in many cases. Make's sense from an design aspect.

Just like overwriting files on your hard drive.

[Grenada]

For those of us that don't have access to E fang and crown, can you suggest alternate feats to replace the DM's until said gear can be obtained?

From what I can gather, these builds are based off of those 2 items.

It would be a totally different build without them.

Edit: nice build, might try it once I'm done trying to build an ac tank.

[sephiroth1084]

Staying pure you would have to drop either the healing feats, which I consider essential, or the Marks, making your intim no longer no fail, losing you 20 HPs from the Epic Chimera's Crown, 30 spell resistance from the Crown; +4 resists, 35% hate and +4 to hit and damage from your Epic Chimera's Fang.

Staying pure forces you into a completely different character as you don't have room for everything. Some of what you lose from the Fang can be made up for in other places (Superior Parrying comes on the Swashbuckler and a couple of other items), and the hate can be acquired on, say, the Epic Cutlass, but the to-hit and damage from the Fang aren't really replicable in a one-handed weapon. I haven't run numbers, but I'm pretty sure it's ahead of the Chaosblade and Cutlass in DPS, or close enough that the difference in to-hit pushes it ahead when that is an issue.

The Paladin Capstone is nice, not so much for the damage but for breaking DR. For this build, Lawful Evil Outsider DR is inately broken on the Chimera's Fang, which is what you will be using when tanking. In DPS mode DR is broken with the Epic Antique Great Axe, or if you are fortunate slot a Devil's Ruin augment in your ESOS.

That's actually a concern, I think, for both tanking monsters that require something other than silver + good to break their DR (no one tanks Lailat, but they could...maybe). Doesn't one of the new bosses have DR/good+adamantine? What weapon do you swap to if you still want the shield? There's also some future-proofing to be concerned about.

Now, if the artificer align weapons or metal-type weapons scrolls become abundantly available, these issues become rather minor, but this is one of the things giving me pause before leaping back into a 2-fighter splash on my AC tank paladin who is set up similarly (Maximize + Quicken for solid heals).

As far as AC goes, for those who were asking, with some gear swaps you can get to upwards of 90 AC with reasonable buffs. My tank is currently at 86 AC with bard song, ranger bark, Haste and Recitation, and will go up another 4 points with some gear I've almost got completed, and that without Combat Expertise on, and no artificer, but the gear is rather different (mostly dropping the Crown and stuff like the Claw set for 3-piece Abishai).

[Dark-Star]

Not sure I agree with tower shields are a must they just provide 5% more blocking which is not a ton more then large shields. Not sure about hp either when compared to dm 2 or 3 we have tank in guild who does great job with 850ish hp. Not sure if improved shield mastery wouldnt be worth it with tower shield for that matter looking at the other side of the coin. What have yeah..

You also lose some blocking DR from down grading from tower shield.

[Dark-Star]

I find this build to be intriguing. My questions are these:

1) What is defender of Siberys for?

Hate, +20% hit points, +6 sacred bonus to str and con, glorious stand.
2) What would be your AC by level 20?

Mine is in the 60's in that gear set up. You can make it a good bit higher at the sacrifice of HPs and intim if the situation calls for it.
3) Could I get away with having a charisma skill lit2 mana bracer (since I don't have the claw set, nor am I lucky enough to get them).

Depends what you want to tank, but probably.
4) Could this build solo any epic quests so that they are able to get their own scrolls/seals (in particular for the bracer claws).

Arcane/FvS is what you want for epic solos.
5) Would a greensteel hp item work?

Yep, the build has one in the goggles slot.

6) What do enhanced and negative level from DoS mean?

It's how HPs are listed when you mouse over them in the game.
7) What's your ending UMD with this build?

Been stated, 30's.
8) Can you hit epic mobs/raid bosses/Malicia with your self-buffed str (noting that not everyone is able to unlock yugo pots)?

To hit is high, destruction helps.
9) Where are you getting +3 exceptional to both strength and constitution from - the rings?

Rings and bracers and trinket.

[Dark-Star]

That's actually a concern, I think, for both tanking monsters that require something other than silver + good to break their DR (no one tanks Lailat, but they could...maybe). Doesn't one of the new bosses have DR/good+adamantine? What weapon do you swap to if you still want the shield? There's also some future-proofing to be concerned about.

If we don't have an artificer for the new epic raids, someone brings Adamantine scrolls.

[ReveredCat]

When I started to read your build I was suprised~~ 900+ hp/84 intimidate/350+ cure, but then I sensed that...no AC.

No offence just wanna discuss pally tanks since Im making one myself

For LOB atm no AC is understandable but the problem is what u have got for losing all the ACs?....350+ self heal....actually its really not that helpful in epic or elite LOB for a tank imo...
if you die with 900+ hp its either your healer's problem or your own tank skills problem~that self heal will only save you in some quite uncommon situations.Cuz damages in epic LOB are way too high.
You may even get more damage than u can afford during the time you are healing self.when its not that dangerous your healer should take the responsibility to heal u.
Well its still quite useful since not every healer has an super quick hand.For my build I cant really self heal while tanking but 260+ scroll heal is available(much slower than quickened cure I know) and 1000+ hp LoH(only 1 shot -_- they really should add cha mod to the charges)
350+ quick self heal is quite impressive and useful in any raid before U11 where u wont get killed in seconds(costs u 57 sp each cure though~say hi to sp pots).And the problem is AC is more useful than self heal in any raid before U11...

so much about AC... several points else Im confused about here
1. to-hit
+10 from chimera compared to normal +6 epic weapons.but I dont see you have +4 AB items~~so I think your to-hit will be sitting around 54 buffed am I right?LOB has 64-69 AC said by wiki.My build is a bit lower than yours(even with 3 fighter PL sadly)...wonder if this is enough for epic.

2. DR breaker
Since u gave up AC for LOB~LOB should be ur main raid target?if u have a artificer in group there is no problem.if not u have to use scroll to bypass adamantine part of DR...it lasts for 6 mins.in epic u will have a very long fight.To recast it ur self(have to switch ur chimera to off hand first) or have another player do it both may cost extra problems in such a chaotic raid.

3. The 2 fighter lvls
Its an end game tank epic geared I suppose monk class access is available?Im so confused why u didnt pick 2 monk lvls?u have at least 43 reflex which can negates blades rain/comet fall/BB in LOB and lots of other spells/traps/xxxx in other raids.Plus 2 monk lvls still give u 2 feats..why not?ur hate wont be a problem....for a tank I think evasion is much useful than haste boost I.

4. How are u going to solve the -10% total hp debuff from each hit of LOB in epic?
actually this is unsolved to any melee single tank...yet.If we use 2-3 melee tank to switch aggro I think extreme AC tank will last longer....(like 110+ AC -_- fully holy buffed sick turtle with some monk wisdom trick...)And in this case your self heal wont help much, even if they lower his AB to 90 or lower where AC tank can single tank it.I dont really think they will lower the proc chances of -10% hp too much in epic.

PS: sephiroth1084 said his pally can get to 90 AC with proper gears/buffs.yes but for this dark knight(actually you are more like bright knight since u cure yourself with positive energy lol)its quite impossible.it takes this build 5 feats and 12 AP to get the healing ability.(AP is really in short for pally, I could use 160 or more if there is no limits -_- ) And u cant miss any gear for AC build, especially armor or shield.this one doesnt look like to be able to switch to AC tank easily

[Ziindarax]

When I started to read your build I was suprised~~ 900+ hp/84 intimidate/350+ cure, but then I sensed that...no AC.

No offence just wanna discuss pally tanks since Im making one myself

For LOB atm no AC is understandable but the problem is what u have got for losing all the ACs?....350+ self heal....actually its really not that helpful in epic or elite LOB for a tank imo...
if you die with 900+ hp its either your healer's problem or your own tank skills problem~that self heal will only save you in some quite uncommon situations.Cuz damages in epic LOB are way too high.
You may even get more damage than u can afford during the time you are healing self.when its not that dangerous your healer should take the responsibility to heal u.
Well its still quite useful since not every healer has an super quick hand.For my build I cant really self heal while tanking but 260+ scroll heal is available(much slower than quickened cure I know) and 1000+ hp LoH(only 1 shot -_- they really should add cha mod to the charges)
350+ quick self heal is quite impressive and useful in any raid before U11 where u wont get killed in seconds(costs u 57 sp each cure though~say hi to sp pots).And the problem is AC is more useful than self heal in any raid before U11...

so much about AC... several points else Im confused about here
1. to-hit
+10 from chimera compared to normal +6 epic weapons.but I dont see you have +4 AB items~~so I think your to-hit will be sitting around 54 buffed am I right?LOB has 64-69 AC said by wiki.My build is a bit lower than yours(even with 3 fighter PL sadly)...wonder if this is enough for epic.

2. DR breaker
Since u gave up AC for LOB~LOB should be ur main raid target?if u have a artificer in group there is no problem.if not u have to use scroll to bypass adamantine part of DR...it lasts for 6 mins.in epic u will have a very long fight.To recast it ur self(have to switch ur chimera to off hand first) or have another player do it both may cost extra problems in such a chaotic raid.

3. The 2 fighter lvls
Its an end game tank epic geared I suppose monk class access is available?Im so confused why u didnt pick 2 monk lvls?u have at least 43 reflex which can negates blades rain/comet fall/BB in LOB and lots of other spells/traps/xxxx in other raids.Plus 2 monk lvls still give u 2 feats..why not?ur hate wont be a problem....for a tank I think evasion is much useful than haste boost I.

4. How are u going to solve the -10% total hp debuff from each hit of LOB in epic?
actually this is unsolved to any melee single tank...yet.If we use 2-3 melee tank to switch aggro I think extreme AC tank will last longer....(like 110+ AC -_- fully holy buffed sick turtle with some monk wisdom trick...)And in this case your self heal wont help much, even if they lower his AB to 90 or lower where AC tank can single tank it.I dont really think they will lower the proc chances of -10% hp too much in epic.

PS: sephiroth1084 said his pally can get to 90 AC with proper gears/buffs.yes but for this dark knight(actually you are more like bright knight since u cure yourself with positive energy lol)its quite impossible.it takes this build 5 feats and 12 AP to get the healing ability.(AP is really in short for pally, I could use 160 or more if there is no limits -_- ) And u cant miss any gear for AC build, especially armor or shield.this one doesnt look like to be able to switch to AC tank easily

Fighter levels were taken for the free towershield feat. Also, if I recall correctly, shields mess with evasion, no?

[ReveredCat]

Fighter levels were taken for the free towershield feat. Also, if I recall correctly, shields mess with evasion, no?

idk if tower shield is worth it or not~but evasion works with shield.I couldnt recall it either so tested days ago.evasion wont work with heavy/medium armor.