Devs: Can we talk about removing Dungeon Alert

[MRH]

lol Trudh

another idea would be to use the Weather alert system like on tv and radio

Loud annoying beeps with scrolling marque on screen that says :

" you are making me angry ! you won't like me when im angry ! "

[Chelsa]

Here is another idea. Learn the game mechanics and how to zerg!

My TR group, 6 players, 3 who have completionist, takes 2 to 2 and half weeks to complete a double TR. We speed run every quests, on all difficulties, with any group make up. Every few weeks we mess up and bite off more then we can chew and wipe.

That being said, there are a few quests that could use a little tweaking. On the other hand, we have everything memorized so, we don't care.

[MRH]

My woman and I when we play together, we actaully cause red alerts on purpose in some quests, she loves red alerts lol. Makes it that much more fun !

The intention of DA is solid and shouldn't be removed.

Fix the bats and other instances as ppl have mentioned then it will be all good.

[dkyle]

Two points on that:

1 - If I recall correctly, from what I've read, DA was not present when DDO was launched, it was something added later. If it is an addition, then could not be exactly something core to the game mechanics.

"Core" is a meaningless notion in DDO. It's part of the game rules, now.

2 - The fact that something is a "well-known part of the game mechanics" does not mean that is a good part, a desirable one, a fun one or even a well thought one.

Yes, and I don't think it's a great mechanic, but I'm disputing the analogy to DMs that arbitrarily change the rules on a party when they do something he doesn't like. This is more like the DM saying, I didn't like how the rules played out last session, and I don't think the rules adequately represent the world I want to run, so I'm changing them a bit. In principle, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Whether the added rules are a good idea or not is a different issue.

No he's not, but, and correct me if I'm wrong... the enemy gets one attack, right? Then you're running and the enemy might chase you, if he wants. The DM is not giving him some magical power that renders you almost helpless, slowing your movements like if you were in a bad dramatic scene from a movie. Also, at least in 3rd edition, not sure about 3.5, you can prevent that from happening via moves (getting away from combat at 2x movement rate not causing attack of opportunity) or making harder to hit you via feats (Mobility giving you +4 AC when crossing menaced areas). Comparing an attack of opportunity, which is quite fine, with the DA system is a bit demagogue.

OAs can be used to trip, and while there are means to avoid OAs in some situations, they are limited. The withdraw action, for example, only applies to the first square of movement. You can't use it to charge past a crowd of enemies unscathed, as is quite easy to do in DDO.

And again, my point was not that OA and DA are equally good and well designed game mechanics, but that they both are game mechanics. Applying game mechanics to penalize certain actions is part of how games work, not some fundamental failure of DMing.

Again, is not fixing the whole game. If DA system is an addition, then could be removed.

Any and all game mechanics could be removed, whether they're "additions" or not. I think having it is better than not having it, but I would like to see it improved.

And "the whole game" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your suggestions are far more complicated and far-reaching than fixing DA. Ideally, yes, it would be great if AI were better. But AI is very difficult.

[Vordax]

And "the whole game" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your suggestions are far more complicated and far-reaching than fixing DA. Ideally, yes, it would be great if AI were better. But AI is very difficult.

AI is even more difficult when you have to keep it within a small CPU budget too.

Vordax

[Antheal]

Yeah, what we really need is some kind of warning system so we know when we're getting close to red alert... Then we could start killing the mobs BEFORE they get super-tough and harder to hit...

Maybe they could implement a green alert as a warning, then maybe yellow and orange after that to really let you know that things are getting worse...

That would be awesome!

Yes, that would be nice.

Perhaps you should suggest your idea to the people who design dungeons such as The Coalescense Chamber?

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Rezzing this thread. The reason is that DA is breaking quests/raids mechanics. The latest I noticed red skulls caused a lot of pain is Master Artificer (last room). There is ZERO reason. Zero. To have Dungeon Alert active in this raid. Whoever designed this raid had ~50 mobs spawn all at once. Which is fine. Why in the world is Dungeon Alert going off stunning healer, melee, casters and all causing unnecessary deaths and resource usage? Seriously Devs, I think it's time to take a hard look at Dungeon Alert. I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely (tho it's a possibility), but I'd like it to be out of my way and unintrusive SPECIALLY when it relates to quest design encounters.

[Chai]

Rezzing this thread. The reason is that DA is breaking quests/raids mechanics. The latest I noticed red skulls caused a lot of pain is Master Artificer (last room). There is ZERO reason. Zero. To have Dungeon Alert active in this raid. Whoever designed this raid had ~50 mobs spawn all at once. Which is fine. Why in the world is Dungeon Alert going off stunning healer, melee, casters and all causing unnecessary deaths and resource usage? Seriously Devs, I think it's time to take a hard look at Dungeon Alert. I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely (tho it's a possibility), but I'd like it to be out of my way and unintrusive SPECIALLY when it relates to quest design encounters.

Aside from the fact that arbitrary game mechanic is arbitrary, this right here is the single biggest fail of DA.

IMO theres a HUGE issue when they create a game mechanic that arbitrarily hampers the performance of players in the zone due to no other reason other than "because we said so" and then design quests that that spawn quantities of mobs which surpass the thresholds of that mechanic.

[redspecter23]

The other big offender I'm seeing right now is elite Schemes of the Enemy's final room. I'm fine with DA in most quests as it won't do much to me unless I'm aggroing things excessively. That's my fault 98% of the time. In Schemes, much like MA, it's one room and the devs have decided how many mobs will be in there, not me. I have no control over it other than KILL MOAR FASTER. At least in my mind, that shouldn't be what DA is for. If the devs are producing enough mobs to red alert a single room in a matter of seconds at times, that's not my fault, that's either a design error (I hope) or they have intentionally designed that room to use the DA against the players (I severely hope that's not what they're doing). DA should always be something I have full control over. If I go slowly I should not be effected, if I zerg at a good pace and use abilities like invis and/or sneak and kill when I need to, I should not be effected. When I'm killing at a reasonably good rate, I should not be faced with increasing DA levels because of respawns. I'm not against the spawns, I'm against DA as a difficulty feature used against players on purpose.

[Thrudh]

Rezzing this thread. The reason is that DA is breaking quests/raids mechanics. The latest I noticed red skulls caused a lot of pain is Master Artificer (last room). There is ZERO reason. Zero. To have Dungeon Alert active in this raid. Whoever designed this raid had ~50 mobs spawn all at once. Which is fine. Why in the world is Dungeon Alert going off stunning healer, melee, casters and all causing unnecessary deaths and resource usage? Seriously Devs, I think it's time to take a hard look at Dungeon Alert. I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely (tho it's a possibility), but I'd like it to be out of my way and unintrusive SPECIALLY when it relates to quest design encounters.

They should remove it from the last room in Master Artificer, yes.

They are much more likely to fix that one room (good specific complaint there), than completely remove or revamp Dungeon Alert.

So keep the complaints specific... And you might see some action.

I'd probably start a new thread though... This thread is already about DA in general which will likely get you nowhere.

[Thrudh]

The other big offender I'm seeing right now is elite Schemes of the Enemy's final room. I'm fine with DA in most quests as it won't do much to me unless I'm aggroing things excessively. That's my fault 98% of the time. In Schemes, much like MA, it's one room and the devs have decided how many mobs will be in there, not me. I have no control over it other than KILL MOAR FASTER. At least in my mind, that shouldn't be what DA is for. If the devs are producing enough mobs to red alert a single room in a matter of seconds at times, that's not my fault, that's either a design error (I hope) or they have intentionally designed that room to use the DA against the players (I severely hope that's not what they're doing). DA should always be something I have full control over. If I go slowly I should not be effected, if I zerg at a good pace and use abilities like invis and/or sneak and kill when I need to, I should not be effected. When I'm killing at a reasonably good rate, I should not be faced with increasing DA levels because of respawns. I'm not against the spawns, I'm against DA as a difficulty feature used against players on purpose.

I agree with this 100%

[Yokido]

We all concede that the DA system reduces server-wide lag,
unfortunately there are a few key gaps that I'd like to address,
and promptly give a suggestion towards the fixing of.

DA increases the amount of AC, saves, and movement speed
an enemy has. This has no effect on direct damage spells,
or (in most cases) THF melee users, they can still be negged
and they can still be lurked around with invisibility/sneak.

DA gives the creatures the ability to debuff players with the
harried effect, which is a severe reduction of movement speed,
and can be stacked several times(which is usually a death sentence).
This has lessened effect on AC/DR tanks, casters, monks-favored souls-
air savants, as compared to other classes.. I've played for a year and a half,
and I know full-well that there is a level of benefit to the above mentioned
classes or specializations when facing harried. It can be bypassed,
this isn't the intent of the harried effect.

My suggestion to fix this is a 'swarm' effect to replace the
harried effect, along with increased damage absorption on
monsters (all forms)that multiplies per DA stage, creatures
also should get the see invisibility buff during yellow alert
or higher along with spot increases. If they're alerted how
can you hide?

Swarmed effect, you are knocked prone, enemies have you flanked
on all sides. Blocking has no effect, all enemies have flanking
bonuses against you, you lose an amount of fortification depending
on what stage of DA it is whilst swarmed.
You cannot be swarmed without orange alert or higher.

To be swarmed, monsters must fill a certain amount of space
within X proximity of you. The higher the dungeon alert,
the wider your proximity becomes, and the less space is needed
to be filled within that proximity. This gives larger monsters
more opportunity to swarm a player, such as bosses or
giants. Once the effect comes off, there is a brief lee-way
period where you are immune to the effect.

The benefits of being swarmed rather than harried;
1:The stress involved with trying to act during the harried effect
is removed, no more frantic button mashing or aggravated play.
Instead it will be aggravated watching, which is less of a grievance.
2:Players can no longer use 'wing' effects to escape danger once
they are swarmed, as they could have when harried.
They also cannot escape by pulling certain levers, or going into
safe zones, or killing the last boss of the quest/raid to complete it.
This prevents a few methods of avoiding the harried effect and
the player still slowing the server.
3:Casters, and tanks are no longer
able to avoid the consequences of the DA debuff.
A caster jumping upwards(which would only
reduce the radius slightly, since it would have to be a 3d
sphere of sorts in terms of range) to avoid monsters during their swing animations
cannot stay in the air forever, thus getting swarmed whether there is
an attack hitting them or not. As with ac tanks, them being effected
no longer relies on them being hit or swung at. Tanks can no longer
hunker down to avoid damage, they cannot block and are left
prone to flanking attacks from all sides.
4:Fortification is now lowered during the debuff effect,
which allows for creatures that would be much too weak to harm
a character with a high passive dr to do so.
5:Players will now be fully surrounded by the time the debuff
effect comes off of them, their only option(if they survive)
is to clear away the creatures as best they can during this period.

Voila, swarm is much better than harried at being a deterrent
against people who have no regards for killing creatures they agro.

Now Devs, get to work.

[adamotr1]

/signed