Devs: Can we talk about removing Dungeon Alert

[Ugumagre]

/facepalm!!

This is one reason why the world is so messed up.

Sorry! From now on I will only agree with you!

But seriously... I dont know about DA. Never did coal chamber.

[dkyle]

I also agree with the DM metaphor Memnir has presented. When our DM in pnp planned something, and someone managed to overcome the situation in a non expected way, it was fun. Our DM had fun too while saying "Wow, you caught me with that move, well played". In a different scenario, if our DM, seeing how the players avoid the danger/solve the issue on a non expected way, freaked out and said "Oh, really, well, suddenly a pack of 12 giant red dragons turn the corner in front of you", we probably had chosen not to play with him again. Why? Because is not fun.

Except that DA is a well-known part of the game mechanics.

If you move away from an enemy in 3.5, and the DM makes an opportunity attack on you, is the DM trying to ruin your fun, and prevent you from solving the problem as you wanted to?

I would like to say "Do not remove DA, but fix it"... but well, considering how "fixes" work, better remove it entirely, and place something instead: A better AI, new quests with different goals/tactics (not a twisted corridor with lots of mobs in it and a big mob in the end), or even enhancing the XP bonus for conquest optional. Want to encourage grouping? Make all classes have a point. Want to encourage killing all/disarm all/find this and that? Make it worthy.

Rather than fixing the specific system, fix the entire game to make the system unnecessary? A nice dream, but I don't think it's very realistic.

[Lence]

Ugh, this thing is one of the reasons I left the game.

One more way the Devs tried to force you to stand around for 5 minutes beating pointless Skele Archers with way too many HP to death. (Deleras)

This is also when they started adding doors that only opened when you killed all the trash.

Adding **** mechanics like this just limits alternative and creative play styles. I mean gods forbid if a "Sneaky Rogue" could actually use stealth to complete a quest instead of the almighty DPS.

Its unfortunate that some people are so narrow-minded (especially with this being D&D) that they think if you are not doing it the way they think you should, then you should not be doing it at all.

[dkyle]

Ugh, this thing is one of the reasons I left the game.

One more way the Devs tried to force you to stand around for 5 minutes beating pointless Skele Archers with way too many HP to death. (Deleras)

I could be wrong, but I don't think Archers actually count towards DA. It always seems to me like only mobile enemies count. But that's just my overall sense, not something I've really tried to verify. I know in delaras, I only kill the few archers that actually trigger doors to open. That certainly doesn't take "5 minutes".

Adding **** mechanics like this just limits alternative and creative play styles. I mean gods forbid if a "Sneaky Rogue" could actually use stealth to complete a quest instead of the almighty DPS.

Lots of quests can be stealthed. Coal Chamber, for example, the vast majority of it can be stealthed.

You don't have to kill everything, but if you make your presence known to your enemies, and you just run away, that can have a tendency to cause you complications. In principle, that makes plenty of sense to me.

[Thrudh]

That's beside the point. let's look at two primary type of players into a dungeon and see how it affects each of them:

Last night I ran fleshmaker's laboratory with my caster. I ran past everything and anything, pulling levers before I could get interrupted and going straight through the quest. very shortly I see the little icon pop up near my buffs, changing colors fast - soon it becomes red, and instead of getting annoying I just grin. I turn around, see all the clumsy golems in one little group, turn on maximize and empower and throw a firewall with a few delayed blast fireballs. dungeon alert now gone. If anything, that helped me conserve SP because I took out an efficient amount of mobs at the same time.

Now imagine the same instance with a melee. He does the same thing as a caster, but now he turns around and sees a horde of flesh golems and realizes he just became harried, even though nothing touched him. now they catch up to him, all have a boost to their AC, and hes flailing trying to get them off of him just to get pounded into the group because he can't get away.

I understand dungeon alert was primarily designed for the 2nd scenario - overwhelm a player and penalizing them for having so many mobs not killed. But what about the first scenario? casters are already considered overpowered compared to melees, but they can literally dance around dungeon alert as if it wasn't there.

DA as it is can only be described as broken and imbalanced in more than one way. personally I think we need to get rid of it entirely, but I have no idea what we could replace it with.

That's a good example... DA does not impose the same penalties on a caster (capable of mass AOE damage) as it does on a melee... so that part may be broken.

However, DA works exactly as the devs intended.... You DO turn around and kill them now... In the old days, you'd just run past everything and kill nothing, using ladders to avoid them from ever catching up to you.

DA is NOT a mechanism to stop zerging. The devs are okay with zerging, as long as you kill most of the monsters at some point. And in that respect it works.

[Thrudh]

Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

I agree with this.

[Thrudh]

Coal Chamber.

I ran this the other day-did not skip any mobs-was in Red by the time I got to a red named due to an influx of respawns and could not do dmg. to the boss.

No zerg + clear garbage should not equal a game mechanic that fails to complete a quest.

Let me guess... you got to the top room, got the first key. then dropped down to the bottom room, aggroing all the respawned casters and archers on the ledges...

Here's a little hint. Kill them on the way down...

(1) It's MUCH easier to kill them falling on them from above, then trying to run up to them from below.
(2) They only respawn that one time.. Kill them on the way down, they won't be there when you run back up.
(3) No DA issues at all.

All that said, I do agree that they should change DA mechanics in Coal Chamber. But to call the quest "unplayable" is incorrect.

[Thrudh]

One more way the Devs tried to force you to stand around for 5 minutes beating pointless Skele Archers with way too many HP to death. (Deleras)

FYI... If you kill all the other mobs, you can run past the archers.

Its unfortunate that some people are so narrow-minded (especially with this being D&D) that they think if you are not doing it the way they think you should, then you should not be doing it at all.

The problem is that power-gamers would run past EVERYTHING, kill the boss, loot the end-chest and repeat... You think any DM in D&D would allow that?

It's one thing to be flexible as a DM, it's another to allow your players to do whatever they want without consequence.

[gloopygloop]

The problem is that power-gamers would run past EVERYTHING, kill the boss, loot the end-chest and repeat... You think any DM in D&D would allow that?

It's one thing to be flexible as a DM, it's another to allow your players to do whatever they want without consequence.

I'd start investing in trash that is harder to run past instead of penalizing the players for my poor quest design.

"Hay guys! You didn't kill the enemies in the easily avoidable encounter that I spent hours designing!"

[dkyle]

I'd start investing in trash that is harder to run past instead of penalizing the players for my poor quest design.

"Hay guys! You didn't kill the enemies in the easily avoidable encounter that I spent hours designing!"

But that's really what it does. If you run past too much, you risk getting red alert, and harried, and then it's much harder to run past anymore. DA is part of DDO's design, now.

I agree that it isn't an optimal design, but I don't see it as equivalent to some kind of "jerk DM" thing.

[Flavilandile]

I'd start investing in trash that is harder to run past instead of penalizing the players for my poor quest design.

"Hay guys! You didn't kill the enemies in the easily avoidable encounter that I spent hours designing!"

As we are comparing PnP to DDO... you don't run past an encounter in PnP... If you do the DM will make sure you won't be able to do it on the next one.

DA, doors that needs to be opened ( anybody remember CO6 Pt2 without the doors ? ) and doors that needs mob killed are the ( despised ) answer of DDO DM to people that just ran through content without bothering.
There's nothing wrong with zerging if you can do it intelligently. ( even if I don't like zerging )

While I don't like DA for what it is, it's something I've learned to cope with.
And by the way I never go to red in Coal, if you kill all the mob, you barely reach Yellow, maybe Orange, when going down the shaft. ( if you don't kill the mob while going down ).

[yk49]

i too hate unfair red alters, such as ones commonly happen in Bastion of Power and Coal Chamber.
but lets talk about something new here. i wonder if red alter in MA raid is intentional or not. it looks to be so. Toven wants to overwhelm us by number after all.
and pretty much bard fascinate is the only way to handle it, right? they dont want us to complete raids without a bard?

[Airgeadlam]

Except that DA is a well-known part of the game mechanics.

Two points on that:

1 - If I recall correctly, from what I've read, DA was not present when DDO was launched, it was something added later. If it is an addition, then could not be exactly something core to the game mechanics.

2 - The fact that something is a "well-known part of the game mechanics" does not mean that is a good part, a desirable one, a fun one or even a well thought one.

If you move away from an enemy in 3.5, and the DM makes an opportunity attack on you, is the DM trying to ruin your fun, and prevent you from solving the problem as you wanted to?

No he's not, but, and correct me if I'm wrong... the enemy gets one attack, right? Then you're running and the enemy might chase you, if he wants. The DM is not giving him some magical power that renders you almost helpless, slowing your movements like if you were in a bad dramatic scene from a movie. Also, at least in 3rd edition, not sure about 3.5, you can prevent that from happening via moves (getting away from combat at 2x movement rate not causing attack of opportunity) or making harder to hit you via feats (Mobility giving you +4 AC when crossing menaced areas). Comparing an attack of opportunity, which is quite fine, with the DA system is a bit demagogue.

Rather than fixing the specific system, fix the entire game to make the system unnecessary? A nice dream, but I don't think it's very realistic.

Again, is not fixing the whole game. If DA system is an addition, then could be removed. I just pointed out that when it comes to "fix" issues, suddenly the devs come with something that hit the players harder. Not dreaming at all. Do I like it/think is a good feature? No (Can I be wrong? Sure, but does not change the fact that I don't like it). Can it be fixed somehow? Maybe, but don't know how to fix it or which changes do to improve it without causing other issues in the game, so... Remove it. It was added, it can be removed. That's all. Do the Devs want the players to go slower and kill everything? Well, they created DA, surely they can come up with another thing.

Also, forgot to say in my first post:

/signed.

[Denegrator]

Let me guess... you got to the top room, got the first key. then dropped down to the bottom room, aggroing all the respawned casters and archers on the ledges...

Here's a little hint. Kill them on the way down...

(1) It's MUCH easier to kill them falling on them from above, then trying to run up to them from below.
(2) They only respawn that one time.. Kill them on the way down, they won't be there when you run back up.
(3) No DA issues at all.

All that said, I do agree that they should change DA mechanics in Coal Chamber. But to call the quest "unplayable" is incorrect.

Here's a better hint, cast invis, and stealth drop down to the next room. No aggro = No DA.

[Thrudh]

Do the Devs want the players to go slower and kill everything? Well, they created DA, surely they can come up with another thing.

Heh, careful what you ask for...

And don't call me Shirley

[Airgeadlam]

Heh, careful what you ask for...

And don't call me Shirley

True, better not asking too much

[Autechre]

I just find the harried effect extremely annoying. Perhaps quests get more challenging this way but that harried effect is SOOOOOOO annoying.
Maybe a different approach would be better something like monsters deal 5% more damage per alert.

[Cyr]

As we are comparing PnP to DDO... you don't run past an encounter in PnP... If you do the DM will make sure you won't be able to do it on the next one.

Sure you do. If you have a character with superior movement rate, stealth, or some other way of avoiding encounters and utilize them then you are playing smart. Good DM's allow their players to use the capabilities of their own characters. If players love avoiding encounters fine. If they love busting down doors and drawing the entire dungeon to them fine. Both are the choices of the players and good DM's have the adventure progress in an even handed manner based upon these choices. They do not start making every monster able to fly because the PC's like fly spells or have every monster memorize Dimensional Anchor because one of the PC's is a wizard who has an item that casts DD unlimited times per day.

[Ungood]

After reading much of this. It gave me some things to think about.

First being Col Chamber: Personally, I have not gone above a yellow in this dungeon, and that was with running past the bats/scorp(Trash) from time to time, So I have no idea how people are pulling Red DA in this place.

Now. DA is not contingent on how fast you do a dungeon, it is contingent on how many mobs you agro and do not kill (remove agro from). Which makes sense as a Lag reduction mechanic. Which I will try to explain:

First we need to group player types. And there seems to be a bit of ambiguity as to what Zerger means. So I am going to use the following groups:

Blitz Runners: These are the players that just amp up their striding, and run though the zone, trying to get to the end fight (and kill the end boss) as fast as humanly possible.

Rambo's: These players move though a dungeon as fast as they can while annihilating everything in their path in a stampede of destruction and mayhem. They may or may not do the traps, typically just for exp if they do. Typically experienced/geared players.

Crawlers: These people work their way though the Dungeon. doing pretty much what a Rambo's does, just a lot a slower. Normally do all the optional and stop for all the traps. May be very new to the quest, or have several new players in the group.

So. If we say that Turbine has 60K people willing to "Like" them on Facebook. Lets just assume that is 50% of their population. So. a base of 120K players in their game.

This, if we guess that 25% are Blitz Runners, 50% are Rambo and 25% are Crawlers for a nominal breakdown of figures (Which I just am making up as I am going along).

That would mean 30K players are Blitz, 60 K are Rambo and 30K are Crawlers. Which are all arbitrary numbers, that I am opting to work with, because I think they make some sense, and hopefully somewhat accurately describe the situation as simple as I can roll it down into a ho-ho cake snack.

Now lets be Honest, most Blitz Runners do not need or want a group, at best they may two man it, for efficiency, but a larger group just slows them down and makes the dungeon harder for no gain . So when they hit a dungeon, they Hit it in tight teams or solo. This they take up anywhere from 15 - 30K instances. if they agro 50 Mobs per instance (red alert) the server needs to handle anywhere from 750,000 mobs to 1,500,000 Mobs.

Rambo's can easily rampage a dungeon in a team or short man groups, Normally tight friends, or even some pugs. So. We just guess that they will run with a group from 2 - 5 players. So this group of players making up 50% of the game base, will take up anywhere from 15-25K instances, and because they slaughter and destroy as they go, normally never seeing more then 10 mobs alive at any time, and if they do, they fix that little problem in a jiffy. So they take up 150,000 - 250,000 Mob AI's at most.

Now Crawlers, like to wait for full groups, otherwise they are dead. So, they normally run with 4 - 6 person teams. If they short man it with 4, then Hires will be called up to save the day. So this group takes up anywhere from 5 - 7.5 K Instances. And really can't handle more then 8 mobs at a time. So they weigh in at agro-ing somewhere between 40,000 - 60,000 mobs.

So., we look at this, and the Crawlers are taking up less then 25% of the system resouces that the Blitz Runners are, for the same number players.

DA is designed not to stop players from Rushing though a zone, by all means. Rush! But DA is designed to stop players from pulling system resources when they do not have to.

So. Personally. Anyone should have the freedom to play as they want, more power to them. But, at the same time, if they are pulling resources and that is causing lag on the server as a a whole, I can respect a means to find a way to stop that, as it hurts everyone's game.

[countfitz]

/signed