Devs: Can we talk about removing Dungeon Alert

[fuzzy1guy]

DA isnt that bad.

Harried however... From a miss... That crud needs to go.

[Vyrn]

Many years ago when DDO was first announced we were promised the possibility of solving quests "Multiple Ways" being able "Avoid and Bypass" enemies using "Gameplay and Strategy". We were told that "as a rogue, you will be able to sneak past a lot of encounters to complete your goal". So on and so forth.

What we have now is a 3D Diablo clone where you enter a quest and kill everything in sight in a mindless caster clickfest.

Granted its still fun, but it could use some improvements, too bad the lead developers are insane or are following some ridiculous plan.

There you go

[Adrian99]

Quote from Tarrant:

"Dungeon Alert helps lag. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Our data proves this, and your ability to continue to enjoy the game despite the enormous increase in player population we've seen since DDO Unlimited launched should be an indicator as well. No, it hasn't completely fixed the lag problem, but I can assure you Dungeon Alert does far more good than harm.

There will always be players that second-guess what we say, even with no evidence other than their own assumptions, but for those of you that are unsure, take my word for it. Dungeon Alert is a good thing."

Original Post:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=16

My Question:

Is anyone able to cite hard data which contradicts the above assertion? If not, what is there to add to the discussion?

[Vordax]

Here is a post from Eladrin about Dungeon Alert also.

Vordax

[gloopygloop]

My Question:

Is anyone able to cite hard data which contradicts the above assertion? If not, what is there to add to the discussion?

I don't have hard data (because that is not available to the players) that contradicts the above assertion, but there is still lots to discuss because even if Dungeon Alert *does* reduce lag, there are lots of other ways that pathing and perception calculations could be reduced (chief among them is just to deactivate any enemy that rubberbands) without the large annoyance factor currently found with Harried status and Dungeon Alert.

[Ungood]

I don't have hard data.

Thank you for your post. Your feelings on this matter have been noted.

[Gorbadoc]

Quote from Tarrant:

"Dungeon Alert helps lag. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Our data proves this, and your ability to continue to enjoy the game despite the enormous increase in player population we've seen since DDO Unlimited launched should be an indicator as well. No, it hasn't completely fixed the lag problem, but I can assure you Dungeon Alert does far more good than harm.

There will always be players that second-guess what we say, even with no evidence other than their own assumptions, but for those of you that are unsure, take my word for it. Dungeon Alert is a good thing."

Original Post:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=16

My Question:

Is anyone able to cite hard data which contradicts the above assertion? If not, what is there to add to the discussion?

Bear with me a moment:
Dungeon Alert increases the number of players who can be handled by a given quantity of server hardware. Before Dungeon Alert, I remember having an entire map's worth of aggro on me without apparent loss of game performance-- during off-hours, the game handled people running past monsters just fine.

Presumably, one alternative to Dungeon Alert would be to greatly increase the amount of server power per player.

Can Turbine spend the necessary money on us?
Should Turbine spend the necessary money on us?

I honestly don't know-- the additional hard data we would need would be Turbine financial information. How much are servers costing them now? Just how much of the money they collect from us is going into the game (as physical hardware or as software development) versus going to Time Warner as profits? How much would it cost per player to get rid of Dungeon Alert while keeping the lag down?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me where to find this information? Time Warner's 2010 annual report contains exactly one mention of Turbine Inc. and zero mentions of "dungeon" or "dragon". The Turbine site itself doesn't even have an Investor Relations section that I could find.

[Adrian99]

Bear with me a moment:
Dungeon Alert increases the number of players who can be handled by a given quantity of server hardware. Before Dungeon Alert, I remember having an entire map's worth of aggro on me without apparent loss of game performance-- during off-hours, the game handled people running past monsters just fine.

Presumably, one alternative to Dungeon Alert would be to greatly increase the amount of server power per player.

Can Turbine spend the necessary money on us?
Should Turbine spend the necessary money on us?

I honestly don't know-- the additional hard data we would need would be Turbine financial information. How much are servers costing them now? Just how much of the money they collect from us is going into the game (as physical hardware or as software development) versus going to Time Warner as profits? How much would it cost per player to get rid of Dungeon Alert while keeping the lag down?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me where to find this information? Time Warner's 2010 annual report contains exactly one mention of Turbine Inc. and zero mentions of "dungeon" or "dragon". The Turbine site itself doesn't even have an Investor Relations section that I could find.

I completely agree with you, my post probably seemed rude because you couldn't see the look on my face. What I meant was, on the topic of DA, Turbine has hard data that it is critical to preventing lag, and at best all we have is anecdotal evidence. In a scientific debate, we don't stand a chance. It's hard data vs. anecdotal evidence, and only one can win

[gloopygloop]

Thank you for your post. Your feelings on this matter have been noted.

...so, the fact that I don't have data that Turbine doesn't release to its players means that I can't have an opinion on whether Turbine should choose a different (and equally effective) avenue toward the goal of reducing lag than the current Dungeon Alert which is widely despised?

[Gorbadoc]

I completely agree with you, my post probably seemed rude because you couldn't see the look on my face. What I meant was, on the topic of DA, Turbine has hard data that it is critical to preventing lag, and at best all we have is anecdotal evidence. In a scientific debate, we don't stand a chance. It's hard data vs. anecdotal evidence, and only one can win

I didn't think you were being rude at all. Many people conflate "enthusiastic criticism" with "being rude". I think the mistake has something to do with inadequate self esteem and lousy critical thinking skills.

I was being completely serious about wanting to see Turbine's financials, by the way. There are MANY cool game features that could be added within a year, if Turbine would just spend enough money.

I'd feel much better about paying Turbine if I knew the lion's share of my money was going toward creating and delivering my game experience. Then again, I'd also feel pretty silly paying Turbine if it turned out most of my money was being spent on stock dividends.

[Gorbadoc]

...so, the fact that I don't have data that Turbine doesn't release to its players means that I can't have an opinion on whether Turbine should choose a different (and equally effective) avenue toward the goal of reducing lag than the current Dungeon Alert which is widely despised?

The point is that you can't know whether the bit in red is true.

[gloopygloop]

The point is that you can't know whether the bit in red is true.

I can't know whether any particular solution that I can think of will be true for the bit in red, but I can (and do) know that an equally (or more) effective solution exists.

(edited for clarity)

[Ungood]

I can't know whether any particular solution that I can think of will be true for the bit in red, but I can (and do) know that an equally (or more) effective solution exists.

(edited for clarity)

Can you provide proof of this claim?

[gloopygloop]

Can you provide proof of this claim?

Yes.

Here's a link to the first part of my proof. Because this is the English language section of the forums, I am linking an English tranlation instead of the original German version.

http://www.math-wiki.com/images/5/5e/Canon00-goedel.pdf

Let me know when you've finished that part and I'll provide the next.

[MrTops]

This bit from the Tarrant quote:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dungeon Alert helps lag. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Our data proves this, and your ability to continue to enjoy the game despite the enormous increase in player population we've seen since DDO Unlimited launched should be an indicator as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=16

It's like saying, 'we're making more money because we have more players but, instead or using the increased revenue to keep up service we're opting for just slowing you all down instead'.

[shores11]

/not signed

I like dungeon alert and it has improved the game play immensely.

[Ungood]

Yes.

Here's a link to the first part of my proof.

Your opinion the matter is noted. Thank you.

[MrTops]

In case I hadn't pointed it out:

I think dungeon alert is stupid.

Just because you have alerted a bunch of bad guys to your presence doesn't mean the bad guys get suddenly tougher. Or develop an aura that means your are stunned and run slow.

It doesn't make any real world sense and isn't a PnP thing.

Surely the plan is to fix the AI and pathing so awakened mobs follow you effectively and then you have to deal with them all.

[Antheal]

Why on earth to Monsters get tougher on DA-Red?

It makes them tougher and harder to hit, thereby actively preventing you from being able to kill them to REDUCE the Dungeon Alert!

It's a vicious cycle. Keep the harried and slowdown effect if you have to, but give us the ability to get rid of our Dungeon Alert easier if you want us to reduce the server strain on multiple mob AIs active at the same time...

[Thrudh]

Why on earth to Monsters get tougher on DA-Red?

It makes them tougher and harder to hit, thereby actively preventing you from being able to kill them to REDUCE the Dungeon Alert!

It's a vicious cycle. Keep the harried and slowdown effect if you have to, but give us the ability to get rid of our Dungeon Alert easier if you want us to reduce the server strain on multiple mob AIs active at the same time...

Yeah, what we really need is some kind of warning system so we know when we're getting close to red alert... Then we could start killing the mobs BEFORE they get super-tough and harder to hit...

Maybe they could implement a green alert as a warning, then maybe yellow and orange after that to really let you know that things are getting worse...

That would be awesome!