Devs: Can we talk about removing Dungeon Alert

[AMDarkwolf]

Dear Waterboy,

I just want to point out in reaction to your quoted statement, that casters are greatly endangered by reducing their movement, even more than a melee. Although they retain their spellcasting effectiveness, a caster will always be more squishy than a melee, thus depending on mobility and dodging incoming attacks more to survive. I think it puts them into the same bucket with melee in terms of DA, or if not the same, not far away.

Cogdoc

Think again.

Melee must step into mob face. HARRIED.

Caster 'boing, boing, jumpity jump, haste, HAHAHHAAHAHHA ' firewall, casts, blasts, HAHAHAHAH hastes, rage, LOOK CAN'T TOUCH ME' NOT HARRIED!

Notice the difference?

Now to make it FAIR lets do this. Lets make all mobs get +5/10/15/20 to saves(depending on level of alert), and give them 25/50/75/100% resist to all spell damage depending on alert level.

THERE YA GO, now u see what melee's have to face. if they did that, the DA system would be equally annoying/punishing to all(IE not fun.. DUH...)

[Cogdoc]

Think again.

Melee must step into mob face. HARRIED.

Caster 'boing, boing, jumpity jump, haste, HAHAHHAAHAHHA ' firewall, casts, blasts, HAHAHAHAH hastes, rage, LOOK CAN'T TOUCH ME' NOT HARRIED!

Notice the difference?

I see your point, and if you take the super duper wizard who can jump around all the time in a way, that he never gets hit, as a base of comparism, you can also put the super duper melee into the other hand who distributes headshots of 8000 damage in an arc to any group of opponents with a bent fork.

It is not always possible to avoid hits, even if you are ranged, you should really know that if you have played any ranged characters. After you are getting hit though, casters go down in a blink, while melee shouldnt die in one or two hit attempts. Thats where the survivability of melee comes into play.

Caster is: Not Hit due to jumping action x4, Hit x2 = dead
Melee is: Not hit due to AC x2, Hit and soak up damage x4, = alive.

I dont see a problem here even if casters can avoid DA easier than melee, as casters and melee should behave very differently in most of the situations you can meet in DDO. They have the perks and the flaws, as melee do. I am pretty sure melee didnt complain about imbalance when raids only took 1 arcane in 12 players, just because he/she was only used for buffing. These two types are different in so many aspects, you cannot balance them completely.

Cogdoc

[Clay]

Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

[Cetus]

Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

This would be the simplest and most elegant solution.

[NaturalHazard]

I will wait until Memnir or Mr. Cow say something to agree with them

I just have no idea if DA is good or bad. Really, no joking.

/facepalm!!

This is one reason why the world is so messed up.

[NaturalHazard]

Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

Bats can communicate, well enough to send out distress signals that let the colony know predators are around.

A lot of bats use echo location.

But yeah I agree with ya, unless they are special guard trained bats lmao.

[gloopygloop]

I see your point, and if you take the super duper wizard who can jump around all the time in a way, that he never gets hit, as a base of comparism, you can also put the super duper melee into the other hand who distributes headshots of 8000 damage in an arc to any group of opponents with a bent fork.

It is not always possible to avoid hits, even if you are ranged, you should really know that if you have played any ranged characters. After you are getting hit though, casters go down in a blink, while melee shouldnt die in one or two hit attempts. Thats where the survivability of melee comes into play.

Caster is: Not Hit due to jumping action x4, Hit x2 = dead
Melee is: Not hit due to AC x2, Hit and soak up damage x4, = alive.

I dont see a problem here even if casters can avoid DA easier than melee, as casters and melee should behave very differently in most of the situations you can meet in DDO. They have the perks and the flaws, as melee do. I am pretty sure melee didnt complain about imbalance when raids only took 1 arcane in 12 players, just because he/she was only used for buffing. These two types are different in so many aspects, you cannot balance them completely.

Cogdoc

Casters can avoid DA much more easily than melee and casters can kill large numbers of trash *much* more easily than melee can. That's why melee tend to kill small groups of enemies as they encounter them while casters (Arcanes always and Divines once they get BB) can sprint past all of these groups until they have red alert and reach a choke point and then proceed to slaughter those mobs with various persistent AoE spells.

And, honestly, saying that melee are more surviveable than casters is just plain silly. Most melee types can be made to be surviveable while leveling, but it takes a remarkable amount of highly specialized gear for most melee to do so. Wizards, Sorcerers, Artificers, Clerics and FvS get that surviveablility with just one spell.

Do you have a mid to high level Wizard, Sorcerer, Artificer, Cleric or FvS? I'm not saying that you don't - that's an honest question. Because if you do have one of those and you're dying more often than a melee character when soloing, when in a party or when in a raid, then you're doing it wrong.

[Cogdoc]

I am definitely doing it wrong, as for example when I, (as you have said, with my high level Arcane) wanted to join some raids people only wanted the less survival melee, because they have already had one caster in the group. I couldnt imagine why they said that when my wizard, regarding to the posts here, can:

1- Completely avoid all damage, even with red DA
2- Group up all the mobs and kill them all with one spell, without endangering himself
3- Have perfect survivability due to one spell.

I wonder if all wizards are like that, what do melee do? Picking flowers in the back?...

Cogdoc

P.s.: High level artificer whom I had such experiences with in a raid? No, but thanks for the compliment...

[Razcar]

Didn't Eladrin of MadFloyd or someone state that from their end there was a very obvious decrease in server load so DA was not going anywhere?

I thought there was a post about it somewhere, but I just don't care enough to search for it.

Think it was a post by Tarrant actually. But I don't care to search for it either.

Many years ago when DDO was first announced we were promised the possibility of solving quests "Multiple Ways" being able "Avoid and Bypass" enemies using "Gameplay and Strategy". We were told that "as a rogue, you will be able to sneak past a lot of encounters to complete your goal". So on and so forth.

What we have now is a 3D Diablo clone where you enter a quest and kill everything in sight in a mindless melee clickfest.

The executive producer has changed several times since then, like what, 4-5 times? Judith Hoffman, James Jones, Kate, Fernando... (and someone else I think, that I forget now). I hate DA as much as anyone, but clearly the intentions for the game has changed over the staff changes and years. I think DA was more of a convenient economical solution than anything else, since it spared them from throwing money (i.e. hardware) on the AI lag problem. And alternative DDO game styles - like not killing every bat in the quest - was a sacrifice they were willing to make. After all, lots of people like Diablo.

[Hellllboy]

Name them.

Coal Chamber.

I ran this the other day-did not skip any mobs-was in Red by the time I got to a red named due to an influx of respawns and could not do dmg. to the boss.

No zerg + clear garbage should not equal a game mechanic that fails to complete a quest.

[dkyle]

I am definitely doing it wrong, as for example when I, (as you have said, with my high level Arcane) wanted to join some raids people only wanted the less survival melee, because they have already had one caster in the group. I couldnt imagine why they said that when my wizard, regarding to the posts here, can:

1- Completely avoid all damage, even with red DA
2- Group up all the mobs and kill them all with one spell, without endangering himself
3- Have perfect survivability due to one spell.

Raids are generally different from 6-man quests.

Raids aren't generally about mobs. They're about bosses. Traditionally, casters weren't as good at killing bosses as melee. Nowadays, they can be just as good if not better. For most Raids, anyone still doing the old "one or two arcanes, no more" is a fool.

Most of the discussion in this thread is about quests. DA is rarely an issue in Raids. In quests, where the boss isn't a big deal, and the bulk of the fighting is against trash, a caster is better than melee in basically every way.

[dkyle]

Dunno about this, running away should always be a viable option.

Why? If you mess up and get the dungeon into red alert, with dozens of mobs on your tail, why should you just be able to run away? How does that make any sense, really? From a realism perspective, or a game design perspective?

Running away is OP in DDO. Kiting is way too easy.

[Cogdoc]

Raids aren't generally about mobs. They're about bosses. Traditionally, casters weren't as good at killing bosses as melee. Nowadays, they can be just as good if not better. For most Raids, anyone still doing the old "one or two arcanes, no more" is a fool.

Most of the discussion in this thread is about quests. DA is rarely an issue in Raids. In quests, where the boss isn't a big deal, and the bulk of the fighting is against trash, a caster is better than melee in basically every way.

Okay guys I give up. I have probably less experience with this game than you do, you are right, arcanes are much better in every way than melee bar raid bosses where they are close to equal but arcanes are still better. You can all kneel before my wizard and the lucky melee will get my blessing.

Cogdoc

[Machination]

DA is something that at times can be extremely irritating. Knowing a quest and when and what to do in said quest (or adventure area) goes a long way in avoiding that ever so rare DA wipe.

Now that being said, I really hope the devs have "improve DA mechanics" on their list of things to do. I don't think it is something that needs to be removed, just needs to stay on the list of things to improve. It is something that could be improved.

[SHOCK_and_AWE]

I will wait until Memnir or Mr. Cow say something to agree with them

I just have no idea if DA is good or bad. Really, no joking.

Now you have +rep for just SAYING you will agree with them. Good job!

[morticianjohn]

Eh... outside of the places where it's blatantly broken (Bastion, Coal Chamber), it's just one more challenge to overcome that makes the game more interesting. I wouldn't say it's ideal as it is, but I think it's better than not having it. Ideal would be better AI and hit detection on moving targets, but that's a tall order to fill.

I totally agree with you. So /signed to fixing the DA in quests where it's broken however, in 90%+ of all quests I do this is not the case.

[gloopygloop]

I am definitely doing it wrong, as for example when I, (as you have said, with my high level Arcane) wanted to join some raids people only wanted the less survival melee, because they have already had one caster in the group. I couldnt imagine why they said that when my wizard, regarding to the posts here, can:

1- Completely avoid all damage, even with red DA
2- Group up all the mobs and kill them all with one spell, without endangering himself
3- Have perfect survivability due to one spell.

I wonder if all wizards are like that, what do melee do? Picking flowers in the back?...

Cogdoc

P.s.: High level artificer whom I had such experiences with in a raid? No, but thanks for the compliment...

Honestly, the idea of "only 2 arcanes at most" is just flat out bewildering to me outside of a couple of very specialized raids (VoD in particular where aggro management is much more important than DPS). I seriously hope that none of those were Shrouds that you were declined from.

. 1) Wizards and Sorcs don't avoid all damage during red alert. They slaughter their enemies and see them driven before us with persistant AoE spells while avoiding *most* of the damage and healing through whatever damage does hit them.

. 2) group up large numbers of enemies and kill them with a very small number of spells while putting themselves in very little danger because most of the swarm of enemies can't actually reach them to attack at the same time and because those AoE spells kill *very* quickly, so the period of danger is limited. A single Maximised, Empowered Fireball with a Superior Inferno III or greater clicky running is enough to kill just about anything that isn't at least an orange named enemy on Normal up until you hit Gianthold. At Gianthold and later, you have to work a little harder, but not much. Enemies drop like flies to Banishment and similar spells once you hit the Vale of Twilight.

. 3) No one has perfect survivability. Put a melee character in a swarm of 15 level appropriate enemies during red alert and I guarantee that they'll die faster than a decent Wizard/Sorc/Cleric/FvS (and probably Artificer, although I don't know that for sure due to limited experience with the class - only got up to level 12 on Llamaland) because that Wizard/Sorc/Cleric/FvS can self heal and can clear out those 15 enemies *much* faster than the melee character can because most spells are unaffected by red alert while melee characters kill enemies much more slowly during red alert.

My point wasn't that casters can survive red alert perfectly and will always complete every quest without dying ever. My point was that they survive red alert better than melees and that their play style tends to be a lot different because of a variety of AoE spells at their disposal (not just one single spell now that Wall of Fire has been tamed) and because of outstanding damage mitigation spells/abilities and self healing.

Edit: formatting

[gloopygloop]

Okay guys I give up. I have probably less experience with this game than you do, you are right, arcanes are much better in every way than melee bar raid bosses where they are close to equal but arcanes are still better. You can all kneel before my wizard and the lucky melee will get my blessing.

Cogdoc

I know that was sarcasm, but after U9, that really does seem like the case in DDO. When I want to have fun and play with my weapons, I log on to my Fighter. When I want to be truly effective, I log on to my Wizard or FvS.

[Airgeadlam]

Protokon has pointed out a very important matter in DA, the big gap between casters (either arcane or divine ones) and melees. DA with my FvS means: Stop, holy aura, BB, wing forth, wing back, wing forth again if needed (noted I only used 3/5 of my wings-in-a-row uses, Alert! Some dev would want to nerf it again), solved. With my melees... well, better have some help.

I also agree with the DM metaphor Memnir has presented. When our DM in pnp planned something, and someone managed to overcome the situation in a non expected way, it was fun. Our DM had fun too while saying "Wow, you caught me with that move, well played". In a different scenario, if our DM, seeing how the players avoid the danger/solve the issue on a non expected way, freaked out and said "Oh, really, well, suddenly a pack of 12 giant red dragons turn the corner in front of you", we probably had chosen not to play with him again. Why? Because is not fun.

If the devs want me to kill every single mob in quest, well, better give me reason to do it. And no, I do not consider "Either you kill every single mob or suddenly even the lousiest of the kobolds will have magical powers and will destroy you in a matter of seconds" a valid reason. And that considering the DA is working, cause I'm a bit tired of stepping 2 feet into "A new invasion" and causing yellow alert for no reason, with no mobs near me.

I would like to say "Do not remove DA, but fix it"... but well, considering how "fixes" work, better remove it entirely, and place something instead: A better AI, new quests with different goals/tactics (not a twisted corridor with lots of mobs in it and a big mob in the end), or even enhancing the XP bonus for conquest optional. Want to encourage grouping? Make all classes have a point. Want to encourage killing all/disarm all/find this and that? Make it worthy. Why would I spend 15 minutes more in a quest, to get +50xp and **** lvl2 items in a far away chest? (Just have come to my mind the optional in Weapons Shipment... long/boring/harded even than the quest itself... and.. for what? 1000xp and some trash items)

[Samadhi]

/signed.