Devs: Can we talk about removing Dungeon Alert

[psteen1]

I would just be happy if the developers gave themselves the ability to turn off DA for the quests in which it is broken. Keep it in most, turn it off in bastion and coal chamber.

[Xenostrata]

If memory serves, it wasn't just a problem of AIs in an instance; it was AIs on a server. I could rush past monster after monster in Splinterskull Fortress without any noticeable change in game lag. Yet, when DA was implemented, server-wide lag seemed to decrease during peak hours.

My suspicion is that, when *I* rushed past monsters, I was using above-average server resources, but this was still just a few drops in the bucket. When *everyone* rushed past monsters, those drops added up, and the servers had trouble handling so many AIs per player.


For what it's worth, I kind of like how the devs tried to take advantage of DA in the end fight of Schemes of the Enemy. The dogs are pretty obviously meant to jack up DA; they're so easy to avoid, your only incentive to fight them is to keep DA down so you can hurt the cannon faster.

Mechanics like DA aren't challenging in a "fun" way, they are challenging in a "****** stop getting in my way let me jump over arrrRRRGGGGGGG!" way, and so should never be used a balancing mechanic in a quest. If it reduces lag, then fine, but implementing it in order to create challenge is not going to be good in the long run.

(I feel the same about epic archers getting Crippling, by the way. If they wanted to make epic Archer's challenging, they should have considered giving them, I dunno, damage, instead of yet another way to slow us down. Motion=fun, so mechanics that reduce mobility for long periods of time=not fun.)

[Kovalas]

/signed

remove this anti fun from the 'game'

Kov

[Sirea]

Considering the level of outcry that occurred when it was added and the distinct LACK of a dev response to it then, I rate the likelyhood of DA being removed slim to none.

You will be hard pressed to find anyone who plays the game at the "vet" level who thinks it was a good addition or added anything worthwhile to the experience. I would love to see it removed, just not gonna hold my breathe for it.

^this

They didn't listen then, they probably won't listen now. They think DA fixed the servers, so we're stuck with it.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

(I feel the same about epic archers getting Crippling, by the way. If they wanted to make epic Archer's challenging, they should have considered giving them, I dunno, damage, instead of yet another way to slow us down. Motion=fun, so mechanics that reduce mobility for long periods of time=not fun.)

I think this boils down the subject very well. Moving/jumping/killing = fun. Stunned, Crippled, hamstring, harried half-way helpless = not fun. No to say that those aren't good, but given that most of the monster AI is to mindlessly spam whatever they got its outright frustrating.

[Sothary]

I would just be happy if the developers gave themselves the ability to turn off DA for the quests in which it is broken. Keep it in most, turn it off in bastion and coal chamber.

And the WF Titan pre-raid... maze area purple side, what a pain in the ****ing ass!

[umeannothing]

For the most part, DA should be given a very long and close look for what it does do, what it is meant to do, and what it actually does.

I agree being stunned from DA, for pulling a pack of mobs, then being spammed with hold/dance/whatever they got is nothing but frustrating at best.

[gloopygloop]

DA was implemented to reduce the number of active AIs in an instance, thereby reducing the amount of lag that they caused. I wasn't here to notice the difference, but have heard that it made some amount of change to overall laginess.

One other way that they could have reduced that lag would be to reduce the nuber of active AIs in an instance by simply deactivating AIs that the party had successfully moved past (at least once they got a certain distance away).

Dungeon Alert is no more effective at reducing lag than rubberbanding is while being a thousand times more annoying.

[rest]

Didn't Eladrin of MadFloyd or someone state that from their end there was a very obvious decrease in server load so DA was not going anywhere?

I thought there was a post about it somewhere, but I just don't care enough to search for it.


DA is sucky and a bad mechanic. I would love to see it taken out. I won't hold my breath for it, but I'd love to see it.

[redspecter23]

Here's the issue I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. DA was added to reduce lag. Fair enough point. But if that is the case then the insane number of mobs in Coal Chamber and potential red alerts should still be contributing to that lag, no? If it is still contributing, then shouldn't it be a priority to reduce the large respawning of mobs in quests like this? You could potentially grief the whole server if you got enough people to zerg through coal chamber simultaneously. If I remember correctly, the issue was with multiple mobs and movement involving all the others in the area. This caused exponential calculations in order to path them properly. Couldn't this issue be solved, at least in some situations, by having mobs like vermin ignore other creatures for purposes of pathing? Just brainstorming on that one.

The second point. The quite probable primary reason for adding dungeon alert is to enforce a certain style of gameplay that makes you stop and kill mobs at certain points that you wouldn't normally have to. Any point in a quest that has a drop down or a ladder is a "reset" point if you don't have dungeon alert. Get to that point and all aggro on you is moot. It can't follow you. I understand that the devs don't want us simply running through the quest killing nothing. It does slow you down and really only contributes a small amount to your total xp in the end. Newsflash, we can do this with 95% effectiveness anyway with invisibility. So DA really doesn't force us to kill mobs in this situation, barring antimagic, dispel or hold monster, etc. This ends up being more of an argument to nerf invisibility instead of removing DA unfortunately.

I have no doubt that DA is reducing lag somewhat, but I also believe there could have been more player friendly alternatives that could have done just as much to reduce lag while enforcing a playstyle that would make us want to kill more mobs instead of a playstyle that forces us to kill more mobs. Any time you can accomplish your development goals without nerfs or annoyance to your playerbase, that should always be the preferable option.

[dkyle]

I think this boils down the subject very well. Moving/jumping/killing = fun. Stunned, Crippled, hamstring, harried half-way helpless = not fun. No to say that those aren't good, but given that most of the monster AI is to mindlessly spam whatever they got its outright frustrating.

Yeah, I think that's primarily what bothers me about the current implementation (aside from the few places where it's triggered too easily). Getting harried sucks, and isn't fun. But it's still a reasonable challenge to try to zerg through, and avoid getting in trouble by being harried. Means learning when to fight, and when to run, instead of just run, run, run.

I think maybe a better thing, that would be relatively easy, would be to give monsters a speed boost, and a reach boost, when DA goes up, so that running away doesn't prevent being attacked. This would be a sort of workaround for the lousy AI that has trouble hitting targets that are running away.

But I think the principle of "too much zerging -> something happens to reign you in" is sound. Slowing movement rate just isn't fun. On the other hand, the boss buffs are reasonable.

[Baahb3]

Considering the level of outcry that occurred when it was added and the distinct LACK of a dev response to it then, I rate the likelyhood of DA being removed as zero in never.

Let me change that for ya.

They have mentioned this before, according to their perf counters, performance has been better since its inception. Because of this it will never get removed.

While I dislike it in quests the biggest pain to me is in wilderness zones when you are just trying to run to a quest like Chains of Flame or Inferno.

[Gorbadoc]

Mechanics like DA aren't challenging in a "fun" way, they are challenging in a "****** stop getting in my way let me jump over arrrRRRGGGGGGG!" way, and so should never be used a balancing mechanic in a quest. If it reduces lag, then fine, but implementing it in order to create challenge is not going to be good in the long run.

(I feel the same about epic archers getting Crippling, by the way. If they wanted to make epic Archer's challenging, they should have considered giving them, I dunno, damage, instead of yet another way to slow us down. Motion=fun, so mechanics that reduce mobility for long periods of time=not fun.)

Being dead also isn't fun, yet that's presumably the point of adding damage to archers. After all, damage is meaningful only if it kills or at least threatens to kill you.

This isn't to say Dungeon Alert is fun (it's not); I just think its un-fun nature has something more to it.

There are two problems. First, DA is inevitable in some places-- and it's these quests that people are complaining most about. Being dead isn't fun, and being harried isn't fun; trying to avoid being dead or harried is potentially fun, but only if you have a chance of succeeding.

Second, DA hurts the fun of the fantasy. So we're adventurers-- fighting to avoid death makes sense. It's immersive and exciting. Fighting to avoid Dungeon Alert isn't immersive, because Dungeon Alert doesn't make any sense.

This second complaint is related to my big gripe with the jailbreak part of Waterworks. For a proper cinematic jailbreak, we should be all rushing out the front gates, guards screaming, alarms blaring, and with maybe a couple explosions for good measure. Thanks to Arlos's questionable AI, though, we have to kill every single kobold within sight of our path. That's not cool!

[Xionanx]

Many years ago when DDO was first announced we were promised the possibility of solving quests "Multiple Ways" being able "Avoid and Bypass" enemies using "Gameplay and Strategy". We were told that "as a rogue, you will be able to sneak past a lot of encounters to complete your goal". So on and so forth.

What we have now is a 3D Diablo clone where you enter a quest and kill everything in sight in a mindless melee clickfest.

Granted its still fun, but it could use some improvements, too bad the lead developers are insane or are following some ridiculous plan.

[Missing_Minds]

Eh... outside of the places where it's blatantly broken (Bastion, Coal Chamber), it's just one more challenge to overcome that makes the game more interesting. I wouldn't say it's ideal as it is, but I think it's better than not having it. Ideal would be better AI and hit detection on moving targets, but that's a tall order to fill.

Add in Reaver raid to that list. One large room. sure, lets have DA there. Right.

[adam1oftheround]

remove dungeon alert please

/signed

[adam1oftheround]

Didn't Eladrin of MadFloyd or someone state that from their end there was a very obvious decrease in server load so DA was not going anywhere?

I thought there was a post about it somewhere, but I just don't care enough to search for it.


DA is sucky and a bad mechanic. I would love to see it taken out. I won't hold my breath for it, but I'd love to see it.

Of course the Server Load decreased, people decided the game was no fun and quit logging on. So Dungeon Alert decreased server load effectively.

[Thrudh]

Coal Chamber: You can literally kill every single mob as you go along and then out of nowhere: Red skull, Harried, enemies buffed, etc.

This is not true. If you kill every single mob in Coal Chamber you will not have any problems with DA.

I do agree that bats should be taken off the list, and should not contribute to DA. I agree that DA in Coal Chamber could be better. However, as a work-around... if bats spawn, and it jumps you up a couple alert notches, turn around, take 5 seconds, and kill them... DA can be annoying in Coal Chamber, but it's fairly trivial to work around it.

when the system fails when there's literally no zerging involved but by the quest mechanics/design, I think it's time to take another look at the system.

I think it's time to look at those quests... There's about 4-5 quests where DA is semi-broken. Bastion and New Invasion especially should be looked at.

Yes I'm sure "we're all uber and we running on red skulls is the only way to roll", but that doesn't justify, IMO, the fact that we need to put up with a flawed anti-zerg system that actually penalizes the players for doing what they're supposed to (killing mobs as they go, etc.).

What? How does DA penalize players for killing mobs as they go... The system works exactly as designed... People who used to run past everything and kill nothing now run past everything, but drop a firewall or a blade barrier now and then to kill mobs.

Net result... more mobs are killed.

The devs don't care if you zerg... They care if you don't kill while zerging. DA motivates people to kill while zerging and it works very well.

[Memnir]

I dislike DA for a host of reasons, and I think the game was a lot more fun before it was inflicted upon the players. That being said, I don't think it's going away anytime soon. As in ever.


I do think DA could use a few refinements that would make it a lot less odious, though. The big question is if the Devs can either find the time or see the reasons behind such refinements. Personally, I think they see the system fine as-is, and turn a deaf ear to our complaints about it. Now, if the Devs were to put up a discussion thread about DA - ala the new UI panel, I'd love to outline a few key ways I'd like to see DA tweaked and made better so that players would be happier with it.


Final thought on DA:
A few times in my pen and paper D&D career, I've played with DMs who got mad when we the players did things that they did not see coming. A good DM can roll with that. A bad DM, and I've played with a few who've done this, will use punitive measures or wrist-slaps to keep the players in line. All this does is make the players resent the DM, and make the table less enjoyable an experience for all. DA is like that. It's not fun, and it feels like the DM is just being a jerk to get the players to stop messing up the campaign by being players.

[Thrudh]

Some quests are completely unplayable

Name them.