Acrobat/DoS Tank build

[Djjinni]

Hey there, very new account here although i've lurked the forums for a long time before. Am hoping for help/advice on a particular build so any feedback is much appreciated!

I play a Caster main, and generally dislike rolling new characters, prefering to maximise each rather than lots of half-completed ideas. I've been looking lately at a tanking alt, and am also in need of a levelling trap-disabler for a group i'm playing with.

Trying to combine them into an SD/DoS build just wasn't working out. Playing an agile tank is a fantastic experience but isn't possible in a lot of games i play, it seems DDO actually has the freedom to do so, but as i lack alot of high level experience I had no clue just how it would work.

So this is a learning experience anyways, and a chance to mess with the WF race that i haven't played much of.

Call it a flavor build if you must, but i want this to perform well during levelling, and not be gimped at 20, although it doesn't need to be super-power gamed.

Anyways, enough of me.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(1 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 13 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 50 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 19
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    14
Dexterity            14                    21
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         13                    15
Wisdom                9                    11
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                     7
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             2                    18
Disable Device        5                    25
Haggle                2                     3
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            6                    26
Jump                  5                    10
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             6                    28
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                5                    25
Spot                  3                     4
Swim                  1                    -2
Tumble                6                    26
Use Magic Device      6                    26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll

Enhancements i will be working on, this should outline most of the build however.
The multiple Toughness and IDR are not fixed. I would most likely replace them with the TWF feats or perhaps go full toughness, as this is a little light on HP.
Power Attack also perhaps?
TWF/THF ? Which would be better here? I can alter to TWF if needed
but staff is a flavor thing of mine.


This is my attempt to give it:
Evasion
UMD, Disable, Search - high priority. OL is nice too.
Self-sufficiency as I pug and play small groups often. Though UMD and a bit through pala spells.
Viable Intim and able to turtle in emergency(I play PuG groups alot. Self-sufficiency is high prio)
Saves boosted by Paladin levels, a nice bonus. WF also takes away some need for Will
Hate tanking through WF Brute and Paladin PrE.


Is this idea worth putting some effort into?
Thanks all for taking the time to read this.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

here is a thread about a 13/6/1 tanking Rogue:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ght=Grumblegut

Your build forgoes AC, and yet does not compensate by having high HP. Your starting INT of 13 is excessive given that you are eating a +2 Tome at 7 anyway, so you could start at 11 and still qualify for Combat Expertise.

Also, look for the Hurtlocker build, it is a Warforged 13/6/1 but it's emphasis is more on DPS. The Grumblegut (link provided above) is a straight-out AC tank Rogue but has the capability to do reasonable sneak damage when not tanking.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Also on your level progression, you front-load a lot of Paladin levels. I prefer to only front-load two (2) pally levels. I do this because:
1) Divine Grace at pal2, and
2) Lay on Hands for emergencies while levelling up

Pally 3,4,5,6 can be saved for later levels (15-20 or so) since that is when you'll really need the Paladin hit points, and you won't need Divine Righteousness (Pal6) until late-game anyway.

Get to Rogue 10 asap because then you can take Improved Evasion / Opportunist / CS.

If you're going for DPS / hp tank with this split, then I think you'd be better off going KoTC I, rather than DoS I. If you are going for AC I think you'd be better off going DoS I.

[Djjinni]

Great feedback thank you. Seems that its a working concept, I'm just not quick focussing the right way. The levelling order is a quick build here and I would do much the same, probably pala levels at 15-16-17-18.
I do have a few questions however

Would i be better to focus on TWF here as opposed to a Staves build in your opinion? That seems to be the way people are leaning. A Staff build could use the free Feats to add more Toughness/DR but lose a ton of dps i guess?

The Monk splash level would add Wisdom to AC if i remember right? And give a bonus Feat that i could take CE with?


Revising the build for lower starting Int, will have enhancements in this one too. Then can work on final breakdowns. Lets see if i can fix this

[Djjinni]

I came up with this, as much dps and AC as i could squeeze into it. Stats should scale well with gear, i'll start coming up with a gear list but i do not have access to much at all for now. This will be mostly levelling with twinked gear. Alot of money to back it tho.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(6 Paladin \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 300
Spell Points: 65 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 21
Will: 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             11                    11
Dexterity            16                    24
Constitution         14                    15
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma             12                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                 Feat/Enhancement
                  Modified Skills
Skills             (Level 20)
Balance                 17
Bluff                    1
Concentration            2
Diplomacy                1
Disable Device          24
Haggle                   1
Heal                     1
Hide                     6
Intimidate              24
Jump                    14
Listen                   1
Move Silently            6
Open Lock               24
Perform                  n/a
Repair                   1
Search                  24
Spot                    10
Swim                     0
Tumble                  30
Use Magic Device        24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting III


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend III

Enhancements probably not chosen in the best of order, but thats an ideal list of what i should have when i include Rogue skill boost for my Traps.
Anyone mind giving some feedback?

[MeatSheild]

Two things, and they both deal with the pali side of things. I'm surprised you didn't take PrE for pali (the HotD would at the very least help with heal amp but for tanking you might want the DoS). The other thing you might want to think about (if your not going to take a PrE) is only going 5 pali (thats where all the good enh are) and maybe pick up a second monk. This will give you another feat and some skill points to play with at cost of 2 hp (that you could more than make up for with an aditional toughness). I've been playing with this on the builder myself for a long time time now. My goals have been to make a tank immune to as many things as I could (including knockdown), but I haven't found the mix that has made me happy and wanting to build it. I hope you have better luck.

[jeremyt]

so here was my take on it:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=324060

SA damage has been potent when i have someone else there (be it pet/hire/friend) for them to look at first. Solo damage, damage to undead/constructs has been highly lame. I wear out staffs. they never ever ever hit me, but each encounter with undead (zombies are his bane obv) is a huge ordeal when your trying to keep your elite bravery bonus running like a real man. So not the easiest to level toon if you XP solo very much at all. I ended up picking up power attack to help with leveling with plan to switch it out for another toughness when capped and using epic staff.

other downside is this build uses one staff. kinda sucks being lev 16 using a lev 4 staff but then at 20 all is good in the world

If your wanting to tank with staff and not acrobat in peticular my take on that was:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=303464

high HP, high heal amp, good tactical DCs, hate boost enhancement and gear, evasion w/ solid/high saves supported by 2 paladin levels. Have him at 20 now, one PL from being a wf 13 acrobat 7 monk I weighed going 5 paladin 3 monk on him for a long while but decided on 6 monk 2 pal to score ninja spy incorp clickie, which IMO is a huge defensive advantage over DoS 1 for this build. Being a str based thf horc w/ evasion and saves it was an absolute breeze to level

[Djjinni]

Two things, and they both deal with the pali side of things. I'm surprised you didn't take PrE for pali (the HotD would at the very least help with heal amp but for tanking you might want the DoS).

I messed up the builder requirements for DoS..and it was late. But yes i would be taking the tanking PrE for the hp buffs and stat boosts. The Righteousness pala buff is icing on the cake. 13 Rogue is for the 2nd feat too, Imp Evasion is just so good.

@Jeremyt i'll get on to checking out those builds after work, I am keen to focus on the TWF version of this however, the Acro bonus to staves is just added. a good bane Staff for crit-immune mobs should solve the undead/con problems.


Main problem is figuring out how to get reasonable AC from this, although Brute fighting and the Pala side give me plenty of hate, so i have some flexibility.


Thanks again all. Making another couple of tweaks and will post correct enhancements tonight!

[jeremyt]

*snip*

@Jeremyt i'll get on to checking out those builds after work, I am keen to focus on the TWF version of this however, the Acro bonus to staves is just added. a good bane Staff for crit-immune mobs should solve the undead/con problems.


Main problem is figuring out how to get reasonable AC from this, although Brute fighting and the Pala side give me plenty of hate, so i have some flexibility.

*snip*

working the TWF is a dimished return investment with acrobat, more-so since your trying to push acrobat's normal build goals a bit by being a tank. HP will be your weakest link with 13 rogue levels, trading 70hp worth of feats to twf will firmly take you out of main tanking capability on most if not all challenging content. I have a friend with a 13 rog acro with twf, and he is a very solid toon. myddo spiderpig. He also is not main tanking, doing more of the destroy trash with SA angle normal rogue route, also solos a decent amount thanks to his AC. Realize acrobats get significant attack speed bumps when swinging staffs, and since your not going TN (paladin levels) no reason to avoid monk level, which staff is a monk weapon, allowing you to get double strike bonus and non-stacking haste speed from first air stance (which = more AC)

[Djjinni]

working the TWF is a dimished return investment...HP will be your weakest link with 13 rogue levels...solos a decent amount thanks to his AC...attack speed bumps swinging staffs...monk level...double strike bonus and non-stacking haste speed from first air stance...

Another great response. I was wary of what kind of reaction this build would get as i know its not the most effective complete build around.

TWF seems to be my dps focus, making the most of what SA i can pull out and using effect weapons to better the quite low damage. But i understand the problem here. I can't see the use in focussing purely on the staff however as THF isn't viable on this low strength build. So dropping the TWF feat to a minimum seems the best plan?

Perhaps taking just the lowest level of TWF, a single feat, making weapon effect combos viable but recovering some lost Hp with the other feats? or would more AC be of use there?

I understand I might be trying too much here, but i am okay with sacrificing some potential as a main tank to gain viable dps. Will giving myself options like choosing to twf on some single target fights for example severely gimp it at higher levels?

[jeremyt]

"some potential" isnt really the way id put the situation. Your the underdog, your trying to tank with a setup that does not lend itself to tanking. Your striving to obtain some thresholds of durability to not give your healer heart attacks. 23 more HP = more important than first tier of TWF. If your not tanking an acrobat does great DPS via sneak attack with a staff. more than switching to TWF with just a single TWF feat.

I would point to the first link i posted and really try to hone in on what you want your character to perform like in given situations. Completely geared out my Ac acrobat has 500ish HPs. This is not enough to tank some content, a dex based WF will be only slightly better than him with HPs and behind (significantly) with SA damage.
The drawback to this is standing in front of the boss he will not generate hate As he wont be tapping into his main source of DPS (SA) which puts him very below par for hate gen, which is why i maxed intim. Can force the issue if its absolutely nec that i be tanking for damage mitigation. Notice I took zero THF feats, they bonus glancing blows, which is great for high base dam THF fighters, but Im boosting his DPS via sneak attack concentration which does not benefit from the THF feats at all. Instead settling on SA for your DPS duty will let you concentrate fully on dex, which in turn helps your AC for tanking. Nasty little circle there eh? Anywho, HP > glancing blows on a low base dam build. And more HP > boosting DPS duty. Believe me, when your smacking something w/ your staff with acrobat bonuses and getting the SA boosts to staffs, your DPS will be fine

[voodoogroves]

There might be some info you can glean from / benefit from the Hurtlocker
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791

[Rydin_Dirtay]

There might be some info you can glean from / benefit from the Hurtlocker
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791

I already mentioned Hurtlocker and Grumblegut in post #2 above Voodoo

[voodoogroves]

I already mentioned Hurtlocker and Grumblegut in post #2 above Voodoo

Ah didn't see it in your post, just grumblegut ;-)

You didn't link it ... you slacker !

;-)

[Djjinni]

I found out some on the Hurtlocker thanks, looks like a more dps focussed TWF build. And the thread makes for good reading on evasion tanking in general


At this moment i'm working towards a choice on:

1- Skip TWF and focus on raising tanking ability and dps with staves

2 - TWF with the ability to tank in an emergency, basically a tough dps class.

Build is mostly for soloing and small pugs. I think the tank build would be better here?
How will stave dps compare to TWF assuming very little SA?


I'm also concerned that it will be easier to gear a stave user than TWF? Although having the option of both seems ideal. Whats the minimum amount of TWF feats needed to be even viable dps dual-wielding?

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Ah didn't see it in your post, just grumblegut ;-)

You didn't link it ... you slacker !

;-)

Yeah I couldn't find the Hurtlocker link -- thx for posting it

[Rydin_Dirtay]

How will stave dps compare to TWF assuming very little SA?

Subpar if SA's are taken out of the equation. Assuming all the TWF feats are taken...etc.

I'm also concerned that it will be easier to gear a stave user than TWF? Although having the option of both seems ideal. Whats the minimum amount of TWF feats needed to be even viable dps dual-wielding?

You'll want all of the TWF feats if you go TWF.

If you want to solo on a Rogue-heavy build then your easiest option is to go TWF with one Radiance II Rapier or Scimitar. This weapon is the game changer when it comes to Rogue soloability.

[Djjinni]

I'm leaning towards the staves flavor here, with higher ac. More important to me than the saves, especially as a WF with Imp Evasion.

I'm now looking at a switch from Pal 6 to FTR 6, would give me much with the added feats? Perhaps dropping the wis/cha points i can push my STR higher and have a decent tactics setup, and good dps with a staff by going PA/THF?

How decent would the hate tanking be with just the SD/DoS stance and Brute Fighting, losing Righteousness?

[Djjinni]

Currently working on a build for

13r/6ftr/1m, with a stave focus and full THF feats. Anyone with any advice or even a standard build i could work from here? would prefer a tanking focussed character, with the option to generate a ton of aoe hate or Intim.

[Jaid314]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=345347