Artificer Scrolls

[Dendrix]

I find this change offensive.

The cost at 100+pp per scroll is enought of a limitation.

UMD should not be boosted.

[Cetus]

Personally, I too feel Turbine dropped the ball on this one.

A better solution to this could have been...

Keep UMD and costs as before. Scrolls now BtC AND vendor only sells to toons with the Artificer Class. (That is, if you want the scrolls, you need to LR+1 or more on your pure class). So scrolls that drop can still be UMD's as before, but if you want to buy them and use, only the Artificer can do so. No overpowered at all.

Anyway... Just me seeing more kneejerk reactions from Turbine instead of calmly thought out reactions. Dissapointed.

J1NG

Where would be the fun in that? Its much more interesting to have a player who invested into UMD be rewarded with some low level artificer spells as perks.

[altrocks]

I don't doubt that your characters and other well geared characters can achieve those numbers.

The problem here is for the first life (32 or even 28 points build) rogues (no bards here, they usually have higher charisma [please don't bring 6 cha horcs warchanters in here, that's not the usual bard]) and the not-so-well geared ones that need to scratch some more points of UMD out of the blue to match this new silly numbers.

I just hope this is to preserve the exclusive availability of those buffs to the new class (i don't agree but i can try to understand this reason) and that they stop here and don't mess further with UMD.

I can get my first life, 32 point halfling assassin rogue to 33 UMD with items (+6 cha cloak, +2 exceptional cha from GS, +3 UMD from tier 1 CC spyglass trinket, max ranks in UMD). 37 with GH (scroll it easily enough), 40 with Skill boost. It's not THAT hard to get it up pretty high on a rogue. Even so, this change is pretty silly. I'll still be able to reliable use either of those scrolls if I want to.

[J1NG]

Where would be the fun in that? Its much more interesting to have a player who invested into UMD be rewarded with some low level artificer spells as perks.

Because then it resolves the issue Turbine is having with anyone being able to purchase them and using them as they were intended to be (as we are using them now) but without penalising the availability or possibility of trying to UMD them for low levels as well, as they are beneficial.

The reaction they've taken is to basically give the existing base of players no issues (as they can quickly craft or purchase to make it still workable), and those newer players a bigger hurdle to climb over. Most of which won't make it.

There's no fun for the newer players.

As for the older players... Well. This elite player here demands that ALL scrolls be increased in UMD by +20. Seriously, I have no difficulty with scrolls... On my MONK. Meteor Swarm? Power Word Kill? I can 0% fail them (51 UMD for you lesser mortal Melee's). This 0.01% of the 0.001% demands to be satisfied! Increase the UMD on all items and scrolls by +20 so "I" can have a challenge on my Monk.

(In case anyone doesn't get the heavy sarcasm I'm poking fun of regarding recent events, the paragraph before this one was made in jest)

J1NG

[altrocks]

Because then it resolves the issue Turbine is having with anyone being able to purchase them and using them as they were intended to be (as we are using them now) but without penalising the availability or possibility of trying to UMD them for low levels as well, as they are beneficial.

The reaction they've taken is to basically give the existing base of players no issues (as they can quickly craft or purchase to make it still workable), and those newer players a bigger hurdle to climb over. Most of which won't make it.

There's no fun for the newer players.

As for the older players... Well. This elite player here demands that ALL scrolls be increased in UMD by +20. Seriously, I have no difficulty with scrolls... On my MONK. Meteor Swarm? Power Word Kill? I can 0% fail them (51 UMD for you lesser mortal Melee's). This 0.01% of the 0.001% demands to be satisfied! Increase the UMD on all items and scrolls by +20 so "I" can have a challenge on my Monk.

(In case anyone doesn't get the heavy sarcasm I'm poking fun of regarding recent events, the paragraph before this one was made in jest)

J1NG

Please don't give them any ideas, even in jest. :-)

[delsoboss]

I can get my first life, 32 point halfling assassin rogue to 33 UMD with items (+6 cha cloak, +2 exceptional cha from GS, +3 UMD from tier 1 CC spyglass trinket, max ranks in UMD). 37 with GH (scroll it easily enough), 40 with Skill boost. It's not THAT hard to get it up pretty high on a rogue. Even so, this change is pretty silly. I'll still be able to reliable use either of those scrolls if I want to.

... wow ... and on my 28 point first life human rogue i'm at 35 with items, 42 with GH and skill boost, do i win a prize for this?

Can we please leave the "my UMD is bigger then yours"-type of argument out of this discussion?

Let me try to further clarify my points:
-There is a new class with scrolls and UMD as a skill (and unique bonuses to UMD);
-There are 2 old class with UMD as a class skill, both with some means to boost it (splashes fall in this category);
-UMD works in the same way for all scrolls;
-UMD DCs for the new class scrolls (not just elemental/adamantine weapons) are raised so now it's more difficult for the other 2 classes (and splashes) to get high enough to reliably use them;
-BUT one of those 2 class is cha based, the other is not, so wonder who is left in the dust, struggling to fit in other pieces of equipment, plan new item switches on the run and so forth?

PS: sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if my post sounds too harsh or smarta**y (especially the first paragraph)

[TheDearLeader]

... wow ... and on my 28 point first life human rogue i'm at 35 with items, 42 with GH and skill boost, do i win a prize for this?

Can we please leave the "my UMD is bigger then yours"-type of argument out of this discussion?

Let me try to further clarify my points:
-There is a new class with scrolls and UMD as a skill (and unique bonuses to UMD);
-There are 2 old class with UMD as a class skill, both with some means to boost it (splashes fall in this category);
-UMD works in the same way for all scrolls;
-UMD DCs for the new class scrolls (not just elemental/adamantine weapons) are raised so now it's more difficult for the other 2 classes (and splashes) to get high enough to reliably use them;
-BUT one of those 2 class is cha based, the other is not, so wonder who is left in the dust, struggling to fit in other pieces of equipment, plan new item switches on the run and so forth?

PS: sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if my post sounds too harsh or smarta**y (especially the first paragraph)

You weren't talking to me - but I feel I should address anyway. I was kind of the OP of this thread.

I don't think Altrocks was trying to pull the "mine is better than yours". It was more to the point that the old number has as little relevance on us at the new number - that is, both are UMD-able by the same people who have always focused on UMD. Irregardless of class, if a person said "I want UMD to be a part of this build", they can reach 24 or 36 pretty much equally.

Like I said in an earlier post, I *imagine* it's to prohibit people from taking a single rank (two cross-class skill points) in UMD, and have a fair chance at Elemental Weapons.

Let's try a Half-Orc Barb level 20 with base Charisma (6) and one rank in UMD.
UMD -
01 Rank
03 Charisma (+6 item, +2 tome, +2 ship buff)
04 Greater Heroism
03 Cartouche, or Goggles of Persuasion via Cannith Crafting
03 Epic Cove Trinket, Tier 3
02 Luck (Let's say we slotted the Blue Augment on the Cove Trinket)
=16 UMD

So that means on a roll of 8 or Higher, a Half-Orc Barb with 1 Rank in UMD could pop on Elemental Weapons between Rages. That's not figuring in other things like higher Boosts to Charisma, Inspire Competence (some Bards AoE it now ), Walk of the Sun, Higher UMD items like the Seven-Fingered Gloves, etc. etc.

36, on the other hand, is up there where a 16 UMD would only success on 5% of rolls. But with 11 ranks instead of 1, that same setup with have a 55% chance of success.

Again, I think it is trying to balance power versus investment - either by having levels in the Artificer class to cast it as a "spell", or by having appropriate investment in UMD to pop a scroll more often.

Also, I question your statement of

-UMD DCs for the new class scrolls (not just elemental/adamantine weapons) are raised so now it's more difficult for the other 2 classes (and splashes) to get high enough to reliably use them;

Which two classes are you referring to, and just how difficult will it be for them to reliably use them?

[Entelech]

Simply put, the question of the day is "Does XXX work with Artificers?" We're constantly asking this of the Devs.

Veteran Status? No, but soon, if we believe Lamannia.
VIP status unlock? No. Hopefully with U12.
LR +1? No.
UMD of scrolls? No, we jiggered things around for no good reason.
Scroll pricing? Same story.

Blah blah blah. It never seems to end. Either the Artificer class is some horrible kludge that needs 10,000 house rules and should just be sacrificed on the altar of poor game design, or it isn't.

Frankly, I think it's somewhat absurd, since you can get comparable effects with guild augment crystals, and they last six hours instead of 5 minutes. And you do not need UMD at all.

[oradafu]

Like I said in an earlier post, I *imagine* it's to prohibit people from taking a single rank (two cross-class skill points) in UMD, and have a fair chance at Elemental Weapons.

Because of this reason, I don't really mind the increase to UMD on these two scrolls that much. It will help prevent a special ability by three classes (artificer, bard and rogue) being watered down too much. People complain about 2 level of rogues making pure rogues irrelevant in quests with traps; this change is a small move to prevent something similar from happening...although I suspect it's more to keep Artificers special than a boost to bards and pure Rogues. In fact, I won't be surprised that the Devs remove these scrolls from shops to prevent Bards and Rogues from using them, which is a horrible idea.

Now, I do have a problem that the UMD change isn't following the UMD rules: (Scroll's Caster Level * 2) + 18. But I suspect we'll get nowhere on chaning the Devs mind on following the UMD rules here.

[noinfo]

Personally, I too feel Turbine dropped the ball on this one.

A better solution to this could have been...

Keep UMD and costs as before. Scrolls now BtC AND vendor only sells to toons with the Artificer Class. (That is, if you want the scrolls, you need to LR+1 or more on your pure class). So scrolls that drop can still be UMD's as before, but if you want to buy them and use, only the Artificer can do so. No overpowered at all.

Anyway... Just me seeing more kneejerk reactions from Turbine instead of calmly thought out reactions. Dissapointed.

J1NG

I would agree to Standard vendor selling to those with the Artificer class only, BTC.

But I would recommend that there be a house C vendor that sells the scrolls once a particular favour level is reached. If you compare these scrolls to SF pots there is no comparisson to which is more poweful. UMD levels are fine as they were, keep it conisistant.

[Dolphious]

That's so lame. It doesn't hurt me, my Bard has UMD to spare (my only toon that stocks these), but artificially [sorry couldn't resist] increasing the UMD of arty scrolls because they're a buy-only class and Turbine doesn't want people to easily replicate any of their abilities? So F*ing Lame.

If you really don't want people having the scrolls then just don't have vendors sell them, making up random rule exceptions as you go along is ********.

[TheDearLeader]

making up random rule exceptions as you go along is ********.

Making up random rule exceptions is how we have the Dungeons and Dragons we have today. And 3.5e, 3.0e, Advanced 2.0e ...

"House Rules", "Exceptions", "Optional Ruleset: Use at DM discretion", "Supplemental Material", "There's a Feat for that"...

I dunno. I'm not saying I like it or dislike it. But the DM doesn't always do what we as the players like. Sometimes, it even defies "the rules". But normally, my DMs have had a reason for doing so.

[delsoboss]

snip

Alright, i see your point (btw i can already see the scene: epic raid, the whole group ready to fight, the pure 20 barbs says "wait everyone", gets scrolls out of his backpack and starts waving his hands in front of him muttering words, while the others try to understand what he's doing after a couple of mins he says "alright, i'm ready! these elemental weapons are wonderfull now i do 1d6 more acid damage, let's go pwn them", rest of the party recalls and drops group).

I still think the change was made to try and keep arti-buff arti-exclusive and that's kind of lame, probably that's the kind of house rule Dolphious was referring to.
Not something reasonable a DM puts in to balance thing but somethig like "alright my girlfriend is coming here playing a cleric so from now on you can't have any other mean of regaining hp outside resting and her powers".

[TheDearLeader]

I still think the change was made to try and keep arti-buff arti-exclusive and that's kind of lame, probably that's the kind of house rule Dolphious was referring to.
Not something reasonable a DM puts in to balance thing but somethig like "alright my girlfriend is coming here playing a cleric so from now on you can't have any other mean of regaining hp outside resting and her powers".

Actually I referred to House Rules, not Dolphious.

And as I've proven in the same post you've snipped, a Half-Orc Barb with 11 Cross-Class Ranks in UMD still has over a 50% chance of managing that same task. So when you say "keep Arti buffs Arti exlusive", I must say that is simply not true.

UMD is also a Class Skill to:
Bards
Rogues

Charisma is an "important stat" for:
Clerics
Favored Souls
Paladins
Sorcerers
Bards (again)

Classes that have more Skill Points than they know what to do with:
Rogue (again)
Bard (again x2)
Ranger (6 Skill Points Per Level)
Wizard (High Int = High Skills)

...eh, enough. Let me get to a summation.

I conclude by putting forth that over half the classes in the game have enough advantage to allocating skill points into UMD that they should; and in doing so, and investing in gear that improves that skill, can easily achieve numbers for no-fail on a UMD 36 scroll.

This change, while unorthodox, does not "prevent" the other 11 classes in game from using these scrolls.

[delsoboss]

snip

Before arguing further and since i don't have access to lammaland i need to know if the change is limited to Elemental Weapons and Adamantine Weapons, since everyone keeps referring to these 2 scrolls that are indeed usefull, but pale in comparison to scrolls such as Planar Weapons and Silver Weapons. So does the change to the UMD dc affect all arti scrolls or it's limited to those 2?

If it's limited to those 2 or a handfull more i apologize for my overreaction since, at least for me, it's just a pointless change, if it extends to all or most arti scrolls then we might keep arguing.

[Dolphious]

I still think the change was made to try and keep arti-buff arti-exclusive and that's kind of lame, probably that's the kind of house rule Dolphious was referring to.
Not something reasonable a DM puts in to balance thing but somethig like "alright my girlfriend is coming here playing a cleric so from now on you can't have any other mean of regaining hp outside resting and her powers".

Bingo. There is a world of difference between a good house rule and and ad hoc rule exceptions to established rules that are regularly used in that game. If they want to make a new system for determining UMD DC fine. Changing the DC on two scrolls to keep many people from UMDing them so they sell more artificer classes is not a "house rule" of the type that is encouraged by the D&D rules. Again, doesn't hurt me, my Bard's UMD about 43-50 depending on gear and buffs.

I think DearLeader understands this differences and is just being pedantic.

[TheDearLeader]

Before arguing further and since i don't have access to lammaland i need to know if the change is limited to Elemental Weapons and Adamantine Weapons, since everyone keeps referring to these 2 scrolls that are indeed usefull, but pale in comparison to scrolls such as Planar Weapons and Silver Weapons. So does the change to the UMD dc affect all arti scrolls or it's limited to those 2?

If it's limited to those 2 or a handfull more i apologize for my overreaction since, at least for me, it's just a pointless change, if it extends to all or most arti scrolls then we might keep arguing.

I'm pretty sure it applies to all Artificer scrolls - but I don't have a hoard of them on Lammania. I just looked at the ones that were in the vendor, and those were the two that I knew most people were looking forward to continued usage thereof.

Bingo. There is a world of difference between a good house rule and and ad hoc rule exceptions to established rules that are regularly used in that game. If they want to make a new system for determining UMD DC fine. Changing the DC on two scrolls to keep many people from UMDing them so they sell more artificer classes is not a "house rule" of the type that is encouraged by the D&D rules. Again, doesn't hurt me, my Bard's UMD about 43-50 depending on gear and buffs.

I think DearLeader understands this differences and is just being pedantic.

I didn't realize D&D was so picky about what it "encouraged" and conversely must discourage as House Rules.

I'm not being pedantic - I'm pointing out obvious argument flaws. When someone makes a statement to the likeness of "Now only Artificers can use these.", with UMD Values of 36 and 42, I put out the glaring falsehood that is contained therein. It's not being overly concerned with minutiae - everyone's up in arms about this, when it's not really going to have any effect on the people that UMD things in the first place. If anything, Elemental Weapons just got a little bit cheaper on Lamma than on Live, so I'm pleased about that.

[Dolphious]

I'm pointing out obvious argument flaws. When someone makes a statement to the likeness of "Now only Artificers can use these.",

Yeah, show me where I said that?

I really hate misquoting.
/squelch

[TheDearLeader]

Yeah, show me where I said that?

I really hate misquoting.
/squelch

Erm. Okay, here's what happened. This guy below said:

I still think the change was made to try and keep arti-buff arti-exclusive...

Then you quote that post, and in your reply where this was quoted, you say.

Bingo...
I think DearLeader understands this differences and is just being pedantic.

So you agree with him, and accuse me of pedantry.

But hey, put me on your ignore list. I'm getting the distinct impression that I'm not missing out on any quality conversation.