tank-like AC without losing ANY dps - possible!!

[huffandpuff]

i know, i know, we've all been there trying to crunch the numbers and set the gear up.
but it is possible reaching those +70AC (or even higher for those wis\dex based)
here's my crunch of the numbers with the idea of a STR based monk (36 build completionist) with gear i actualy have and relatively easy to get (except those alc. wraps, dont have pack yet):

completly unbuffed:
10-base
9-dex
11-wis
5-centerd
8-armor
5-defflection
1-alchemical ritual
2-dodge
3-dodge
4-natural armor
4-insight (dont have yet, trying to get this on alchemical wraps)
--------------------
62 ac

ship buffs:
1-dex
1-wis
1-kobold
1-dwarf
1-human
----------
67 ac

temp (self) buffs:
1-haste (GS cliky)
4-shield (10 min wand, because lets face it, no-one realy keeps this up with 1 min clikies)
2-recitation (1:36 sec is meh, but if its the only 1 i need to keep track of...)
---------
74 ac

for kicks, the you'll-never-get-all-these-things-at-once buffs:
1-barkskin
2-bard ac song
(2-5)-pally aura
----------
79-82 ac


i only figured +2 tomes, but i have a few +4's im keeping for later tr's. i could squeeze another 2 ac from that.
now, couple that AC with over 350% healing amp and 2 tod rings (with bursts) and those sweet alc. wraps on a light monk and u have a real melee (nigh unbeatable) tank.
and before u ask: yes, its possible to fit all that into ur gear without losing dps.
where's the gear list?
that's for you to know and for me to find out

thoughts?

edit: added haste to self buffs

[Kaldaka]

Where are your dodge's coming from? +3 either on DT or Chattering ring, +4 on Icy Rainment, the +2 from chaosguard or epic cloak of night (but I assume you have +8 armor bracers ...). Its possible to have all three ...

Possibly a couple more:

+1 dodge from Dodge feat.

+1 dodge from TW defense feat?? Not sure if this works with handwraps.

+1 dodge from Nimble Trinket from CC. Should stack with feats and spells, but can't confirm.

+5 from Combat expertise, or +2 from defensive fighting if you can't afford the feat.

+1 from Haste spell.

[Jendrak]

The feat dodge will stack with a +1 dodge from item. I use this on my dwarven Ed all the time.

[huffandpuff]

true, forgot the haste portion
but the beauty of this build is that its not AC focused at all.
no feats we're counted towards ac whatsoever
i would love it if people actualy figured out this gear-wise, i put alot of thought and work into this
also i suck at math, i would apriciate if could anyone run these numbers for total dmg output:
2d12+32 (3d6+3sneak +8 from item)
4d6 holy+3d6 on crits, 1d6 lightning+1d10 on crits, 1d6 ice+1d10 on crits, 1 force
+13 STR
+3 past life monk
+5 power attack
+4 tod rings (shintao+encrusted)
+4 claw set
+3 weapon dmg

(didnt take IC if that's relavent)

edit: also a seperate calc with ship buffs +3 dmg (+2 str\hobgoblin) if u could

[Kaldaka]

... the beauty of this build is that its not AC focused at all.
no feats we're counted towards ac whatsoever ...

Well as a monk you get a LOT of feats so I highly doubt a couple feats would much affect your DPS if at all ... You said you didn't take IC so what did you do with your feats?

[Kinerd]

true, forgot the haste portion
but the beauty of this build is that its not AC focused at all.
no feats we're counted towards ac whatsoever
i would love it if people actualy figured out this gear-wise, i put alot of thought and work into this

Well, 3 Dodge couldn't come from a Chattering Ring or Epic Grim's Bracelet if you want two ToD sets, so you must have it on Dragontouched. That gives us:
Armor - DT
rings, necklace, belt - ToD

You have 8 armor bonus, and your belt is spoken for, so it has to be bracers. You have 2 dodge, which could be a Cannith item (goggles, bracers are out, trinket). You have 4 natural unbuffed, which has to go in an epic Green slot taking into account the gear you already have, so cloak, boots, gloves, helm, bracers, or trinket. 5 deflection could be on the Tempest rune or cloak, think that covers everything.

also i suck at math, i would apriciate if could anyone run these numbers for total dmg output:
2d12+32 (3d6+3sneak +8 from item)
4d6 holy+3d6 on crits, 1d6 lightning+1d10 on crits, 1d6 ice+1d10 on crits, 1 force
+13 STR
+3 past life monk
+5 power attack
+4 tod rings (shintao+encrusted)
+4 claw set
+3 weapon dmg

(didnt take IC if that's relavent)

edit: also a seperate calc with ship buffs +3 dmg (+2 str\hobgoblin) if u could

What do you mean by "+3 weapon dmg"? In any event, I have you at 292 DPS against 0 fort 0 resist targets before ki strikes outside of Wind or Earth stance. In those two stances, assuming you're in Sun stance and rank 4 all around, it goes to 298 and 295 respectively. +3 damage would be worth 7-10 DPS across stances.

For ki strikes, if we say you have enough ki for all tier 4 strikes on cooldown (and again, no fort or resist), that's a total of:
[3 * 1.8 * 21 * (19/20) + 1.8 * (16 * (20/20) + 11 * (1/20))] / 3 = 46 more DPS outside of Wind stance, and 48 in it.

So best case you're looking at around 350 DPS.

The 22 extra HP from the second toughness is not in any conceivable way a worthy trade-off for the DPS loss by not taking IC. Other than that, I agree with your greater point that you don't need to sacrifice much to get sufficient AC to be of use in much of the end-game content.

Improved Critical is overrated for monks. The OP's set-up has 3 bursts and pretty good base damage and would still only gain about 3% DPS with it. For 22 HP to be only a 3% increase, he would need over 700 HP without it, which is unlikely.

[whomhead]

Improved Critical is overrated for monks. The OP's set-up has 3 bursts and pretty good base damage and would still only gain about 3% DPS with it. For 22 HP to be only a 3% increase, he would need over 700 HP without it, which is unlikely.

So you're saying that HP and DPS are exactly equivalent in every way, such that a 3% increase in one is exactly as useful as a 3% increase in the other? I know that this is a subjective area, and also that one's DPS is rather low when HP reaches 0. Nevertheless, under any circumstance where his HP is less than 22 and greater than 0 on the build outlined above, then an increase in DPS is absolutely more beneficial. This is especially true when you account for the fact that his character has most likely got very low threat gen (most likely just 30% from eClaw Gloves, but I can't say without a gear breakdown).

[huffandpuff]

monks get 10 feats total:
twf
imp. twf
g. twf
luck of heroes (for shintao)
stuning fist
monk past life
completionist feat (bcz its not free, after all that grind..)
power attack
toughness x2

maybe IC is better, but i preffer the extra hp's.
might pick it up and get a feel for it, but not plausable atm

[whomhead]

monks get 10 feats total:
twf
imp. twf
g. twf
luck of heroes (for shintao)
stuning fist
monk past life
completionist feat (bcz its not free, after all that grind..)
power attack
toughness x2

maybe IC is better, but i preffer the extra hp's.
might pick it up and get a feel for it, but not plausable atm

The 22 extra HP from the second toughness is not in any conceivable way a worthy trade-off for the DPS loss by not taking IC. Other than that, I agree with your greater point that you don't need to sacrifice much to get sufficient AC to be of use in much of the end-game content.

[t0r012]

The 22 extra HP from the second toughness is not in any conceivable way a worthy trade-off for the DPS loss by not taking IC. Other than that, I agree with your greater point that you don't need to sacrifice much to get sufficient AC to be of use in much of the end-game content.

100% agreed on the IC, +1.

yes you can get a good AC without "much" sacrifice but you do need to sacrifice some.

[ulticleo]

well... yes and no.
yes, it is possible to have nice AC on a monk without sacrificing *too much* dps. but no, you can't do it without sacrificing *any* dps.

+2/3 dodge: these are coming from cloak of night and DT, as far as I can tell
+8 armor: bracers, presumably, possibly Jidz-Tetka (since you also have high heal amp).
Also, I doubt you managed to take max str on a horc, while still getting 28 dex and 32 wis. so let's assume you didn't.

to "not sacrifice ANY dps", you'd need to take horc, dark monk, max str, use garments of equilibrium, claw set, FB set, epic cape of the rock, most likely, and possibly some other stuff I haven't thought of off the top of my head. Also, I think in that setup, you'd be better off in wind stance, but not 100% sure. Oh, and yes, IC brings more dps against anything that's not 100% fort.

Bottom line, you sacrificed some dps :P

having said that, I have a light monk with 70+ ac and very nice dps. I like him very much, but have no illusions about what sacrifices I've made...

[Ungood]

i know, i know, we've all been there trying to crunch the numbers and set the gear up.
but it is possible reaching those +70AC (or even higher for those wis\dex based)
here's my crunch of the numbers with the idea of a STR based monk (36 build completionist) with gear i actualy have and relatively easy to get (except those alc. wraps, dont have pack yet):

completly unbuffed:
10-base
9-dex
11-wis
5-centerd
8-armor
5-defflection
1-alchemical ritual
2-dodge
3-dodge
4-natural armor
4-insight (dont have yet, trying to get this on alchemical wraps)
--------------------
62 ac

ship buffs:
1-dex
1-wis
1-kobold
1-dwarf
1-human
----------
67 ac

temp (self) buffs:
1-haste (GS cliky)
4-shield (10 min wand, because lets face it, no-one realy keeps this up with 1 min clikies)
2-recitation (1:36 sec is meh, but if its the only 1 i need to keep track of...)
---------
74 ac

for kicks, the you'll-never-get-all-these-things-at-once buffs:
1-barkskin
2-bard ac song
(2-5)-pally aura
----------
79-82 ac


i only figured +2 tomes, but i have a few +4's im keeping for later tr's. i could squeeze another 2 ac from that.
now, couple that AC with over 350% healing amp and 2 tod rings (with bursts) and those sweet alc. wraps on a light monk and u have a real melee (nigh unbeatable) tank.
and before u ask: yes, its possible to fit all that into ur gear without losing dps.
where's the gear list?
that's for you to know and for me to find out

thoughts?

edit: added haste to self buffs

While the numbers look good, none of this helps me unless I know what gear it took to get to this point and the base stats of the build to make this work.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Just to nitpick, you do actually sacrifice a small amount of DPS. Since you're using 3 dodge I'm going to assume that that is either a chatter ring or the necky, either way leaves you without a tod set, (fb or shintao) which means less DPS.

[Meriadeuc]

There is always going to be some sort of a trade off between DPS and AC. It's all a question of where on the AC spectrum you want to end up and how much DPS each point of AC "costs". If you want to end up on the low end of the spectrum (which will give you usable AC in a few places, but not many), your DPS cost per point of AC will be low. If you want to end up on the high end (where your AC will be usable even in many epic situations), the cost per point of AC will be high.

Currently, I think the most economical trade off between DPS and AC (which also happens to end up fairly high on, although not on the top of, the AC spectrum) would be a strength-based Stalwart Defender or Defender of Sibreys using heavy armor, an epic Chimera's Fang and a shield. Stalwart Defender would probably be better so that you have enough feats for all of the dragonmarks, the full THF line and the two shield mastery feats, but a case could be made for the Defender of Sibreys version as well.

[t0r012]

Get you insight bonus from the epic sirens ward set along with the + 8 armor.
Still borks your neck slot so you lose ToD set.

Any which way you slice it you have to give-up dps for survivability be it ac , healing amp or both. It just takes too much gear.

With the current game set up there is pretty much a way to fit more damage in just about any slot so any ac or amp you add will reduce your damage , period.

Not to mention that as a monk you aren't going to be top DPS to begin with and going light monk skews it even more. Besides not being the best starting damage monks can't really afford to go all out on the starting str if you want to keep all the monk goodies up to even useable levels.

[Hecore]

10 base
10 dex (15 starting + 2 tome + 1 ex + 2 ship + 6 item + 4 stance)
9 wis (16 starting + 2 tome + 2 monk + 2 ship + 6 item)
5 centered
8 armor (e. scorched)
5 deflection (min 2 helm)
1 alchemical
2 dodge (e. Cloak of Night)
3 dodge (e. grim's bracelet)
4 dodge (icy raiment)
3 ship natural armor
3 profane natural armor (3 piece abashai)
4 natural armor (e. grim's slotted)
4 insight (alchemical handwraps)
-----
71 standing ac

1 haste
4 shield
2 recitation
-----
78 self-buffed


Gear:
Weapon: Alchemical Handwraps
Trinket: Blindness Immunity/Attack +4
Helmet: GS Mineral 2
Necklace: Epic Grim's Bracelet w/ +4 Natural Armor slotted
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Armor: Icy Raiment w/ Alchemical ritual
Belt: Knost's Belt
Ring1: Encrusted Ring w/ Holy Burst
Ring2: Connor's Band w/ Shocking Burst
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion w/ Resist +4 & +1 Exceptional Constitution slotted
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night
Gloves:Epic Charged Gauntlets w/ +6 Wisdom slotted
Bracers: Epic Scorched Bracers w/ Toughness slotted

Slightly different approach to the same problem. Gear list might need some tweaks (not loving important stuff on boots for TOD), but should put out some very nice damage without sacrificing much of anything for 70+ ac.

[baii]

can ac in 80s tank Horoth?

[grodon9999]

can ac in 80s tank Horoth?

On hard, you still need HP.

[Feithlin]

You have AC, you have healing amp, your saves are probably fine as a monk, but what's your threat generation? how much hp? Rolling a '1' on save is always possible, and if it ends with death, your tanking is done. Also, if you can resist well to the boss but he turns from you to another member of the raid, it's also done for your tanking (at least in this case, intimidating would allow to get him back so you can rebuild some threat).

[huffandpuff]

noticed the wall of text, had alot to say ^^

i listed the breakdown for damage to give a hint for the gear.
yes, im using both tod sets (which means neck\belt spots are taken respectivly)
some are u are way off, but good guessing
while light monks are underated as dps, it really all deppends on play style.
i belive surviveablity is a bit more important than dps.
sure, dps is really really REALLY important - but when ur local pug cleric is busy with something else and u need a heal... well.. usualy it ends up with a nice twirly little blue stone on the ground. seriously, try making a 300%-500% healing amp build (u end up taking 100-250 healing from light cures from healers)

i've tanked suulo on hards\elites with a bard healing me (cure crit wand and cure serious spell pre U11 and the other healer was on group. havnt tried it yet now
the build ends up with 560-ish hp (havnt finished my barb TR's yet) with ship buffs which is quite high. for a monk.

2nd edit:
i've also tanked horoth elite with a 0 AC toon (pally\monk) with over 400% healing amp and 600 hp.
sure, needs healing spams, but very cheap ones. (fvs spamming free light cure)
after doing that a few times (in pugs) i sincierly think anything above 500 hp can tank.
u might roll a 1. but the other 95% of the time ur fine.

threat generating is fine as long as no-one is actively trying to get agro (and even then its hard for anyone not weilding an esos)
shintao set hidden bonus for 15% threat and claw set for another 20%

about H.orcs and dwarves:
have u actualy LOOKED at them? XD
dwarves are too stubby for me.. sure they have great abilities, but i feel like the screen should keel over when i tried playing them. i even thought of a prestige class specifcly against players using dwarves, but that's anoter story.
horcs arent worth it for +4 str, losing 20% healing from human (20% is ALOT when combined with everything else)
also 3d6 sneak dmg from rog dillitante is far superior IMO, for everything that im not tanking (stun fist is 46 dc), and heck, sometimes i join the odd gruop where this guy insists on taking him on so ill play along

stat breakdown:
16 str
16 dex (bcz i dont like that 15 dex BS, i want my +1reflex\ac\whatever :P)
14 con (yup, more than enough)
8 int
16 wis
8 cha

balance in stats is important for monks, otherwise ur gimping urself (start with 10 wis for that 18 str? ya, gimp)
so when i said not losing any dps i meant any dps u wouldnt 'lose' anyway.
more guessing at gear!!!

edit: the +3 weapon dmg is from +3 holy wraps of stun 10, barely use anything else.