Pally Tank... Why Bother?

[nitronisto]

after being gone for some time i find the fighter/pali who's a better tank fight still going on.. and the sad part is you guys are forgeting that they are 2 diff classes with 2 diff playing styles, yes they both use the same gear for the most part, but the way they use it is night and day, same time i have a SnB pali tank hes not high end but hes what i need to solo group and raid.
Each are goin to have there pros and cons of skills, palis are loved by there healers cause they can watch over themselves and hp alowing ur healers to save mana for the fighting and to keep the support up. the cost when a hit lands it hurts a little more. a fighter has to break out the pots and hope that the healer has him targeted when his hp get low, but the pro he can eat bigger hits more offten.
really if u wana all in one char to play, goto a game like WoW, or Guild Wars and make a metra build, me personally i enjoy a game that i have to have support at times to get things done and that the fighter goes about the same thing in a differnt way.
7 pages later and the orginal poster even said i dont have a pali, to me that kind of knocks out the then u know what your talking about factor. cause what works or dosnt work on papper doesnt mean it is always goin to factor over to application

[Khellendros13]

Haha. I have an ac character but not my DOS pally. On normal and hard with experience tanking any high hit point tank will do just fine in LOB and MA. A properly built DOS or SD is concerned with DR, healing amp, dps, aggro retention, and hit points in those raids especially for elite/epic. Tower is 2+ years old so shrug. You need to run the raids more. I have already completed LOB 50ish times.

Well, not everyone has access to channels that can pull together enough players to run the new raids 50 times so far.
Anyone playing US primetime or daytime Aus time is at an advantage. I can barely fill a ToD or Shroud in my main play times now with the Cove on, and it was very hard to get people for the new raids.

You can build a tank to only be of use when tanking, or you can build it to fill multiple roles. Myself and a particular guildie shoot for a solid mix. High ac, dps that isn't embarrassing and self sufficiency.

There is absolutely no reason you cannot have ac in the 90s, 800hp, 150-200% heal amp, and high DR if SnB.
It is all gear, and the choices you make in some feats.

Base 15 str vs Base 18?
Base 15 con vs base 18?

Any ac build needs a DPS mode for sure, and should have gear sets for both, and a hybrid for easier raids.

[maddmatt70]

Well, not everyone has access to channels that can pull together enough players to run the new raids 50 times so far.
Anyone playing US primetime or daytime Aus time is at an advantage. I can barely fill a ToD or Shroud in my main play times now with the Cove on, and it was very hard to get people for the new raids.

You can build a tank to only be of use when tanking, or you can build it to fill multiple roles. Myself and a particular guildie shoot for a solid mix. High ac, dps that isn't embarrassing and self sufficiency.

There is absolutely no reason you cannot have ac in the 90s, 800hp, 150-200% heal amp, and high DR if SnB.
It is all gear, and the choices you make in some feats.

Base 15 str vs Base 18?
Base 15 con vs base 18?

Any ac build needs a DPS mode for sure, and should have gear sets for both, and a hybrid for easier raids.

Ac gear takes equipment slots that could be used for dps or healing amp or dr or hit point gear.. The shield could be a higher dr shield etc. Dexterity is higher if you are going for ac vs. if you are not you can have higher base stats in other areas. I myddoed one of the ac pallys in this thread and he is not wearing the epic gloves of claw (epic spectral gloves -higher ac), bloodstone trinket (nimble trinket- higher ac), tower shield or regular shield (epic bucannear shield - higher ac), etc. What I am saying is dump that ac gear and lr your pally to less ac so dps, amp, hit points, and dr go up.

Edit: in regards to the new raids its not easy for anyone, but groups are going to have to consolidate and partner up in one way or another because we lost some folks. There are some excellent euro/east coast players still on Khyber. E.g. is the revenants are euro/east coast players primarily.

[Lighti]

Or you just have both AC equipment and DPS/DR equipment (wich as i gues its my Pali you myddo i do have)

[Khellendros13]

Ac gear takes equipment slots that could be used for dps or healing amp or dr or hit point gear.. The shield could be a higher dr shield etc. Dexterity is higher if you are going for ac vs. if you are not you can have higher base stats in other areas. I myddoed one of the ac pallys in this thread and he is not wearing the epic gloves of claw (epic spectral gloves -higher ac), bloodstone trinket (nimble trinket- higher ac), tower shield or regular shield (epic bucannear shield - higher ac), etc. What I am saying is dump that ac gear and lr your pally to less ac so dps, amp, hit points, and dr go up.

Edit: in regards to the new raids its not easy for anyone, but groups are going to have to consolidate and partner up in one way or another because we lost some folks. There are some excellent euro/east coast players still on Khyber. E.g. is the revenants are euro/east coast players primarily.

That is why I said an ac tank should have a DPS gearset too. The only reason my Pally doesn't have Epic Claw set is because I have so much else to do in game. Besides, for the "intim, block and bounce between 2 tanks" I have a 30% amp khopesh.

Right now with a Bard I can get 90ac, missing DoS ring and a few ac pts when I TR/get some more +3 tomes.

My DPS mode is Ravager set, Shintao set (+2str, +2con), 5 piece Abishai (ac set too), Tharnes, DT with Hvy Fort/20% amp/Destruction, 759hp and 46str. Epic SoS, Cannith crafted khopeshs, Lit2s.

As I said, 15str/con vs 18 or 20 if a Horc is not going to make or break the DPS. The rest of the Horc enhancements certainly do but that is another discussion.

At this point in the game, I will say a snb tank is the most ideal tank, the increased boss damage on Hard or Elite is quite a lot. Sulu hitting me for 117 last night in Elite VoD. Shield Mastery damage reduction on EVERYTHING (spells, traps too) is pretty significant, and non gimp snb tanks hold agro easily.

My Pally will stay twf though as it is more fun for non raids, and my Dwarf SD will remain snb.

Basically, I value builds that are not a waste of space if someone better ends up tanking instead or there is no tank needed but DPS is (Von6 for example).

[hawkversey]

I have a level 20 KotC twf pally, 32 pt build I started in 07. I havent changed him or tr'd him because of one key thing. I ENJOY PLAYING THE TOON. I can dish out decent dps, not the absolute most, but decent. TWF With GS MIN II, and LIT II. Yes when Smite goes off it GOES OFF, especially when lit II hits as well. But the fun part of the toon is I can cast resists, help the entire party with other buffs while being able to mob in and bash most of the time. And as for endgame that toon can solo several amrath quests, if a toon is gimped its not gonna solo anything at or near endgame. If you dont want to bother with a pally then dont, I have a tr fighter that im working back up the levels for dps, he is fun as well. Both built because of whats fun to play and what mood Im in when I log in. I dont like to play wizards, sorcs, or clerics, does not make them pointless. If a toon is played by someone who likes the class then it will likely be played well, and with some advantage to the party. As for me the class is worth the bother, gimped or not, because its fun to play. It is afterall, a game.

[Jendrak]

What are you talking about, it's 3 feats, not 4. And you could in theory drop improved critical too because Chimera's Fang and a min II are both keen. Wouldn't do that myself though.

Ummmmm....3 dragon marks + profiency makes 4.

Haha. I have an ac character but not my DOS pally. On normal and hard with experience tanking any high hit point tank will do just fine in LOB and MA. A properly built DOS or SD is concerned with DR, healing amp, dps, aggro retention, and hit points in those raids especially for elite/epic. Tower is 2+ years old so shrug. You need to run the raids more. I have already completed LOB 50ish times.

I'm just curious how you've completed a raid "50ish" times in less than 1 month????

[Viisari]

Ummmmm....3 dragon marks + profiency makes 4.

You might want to look at the item description...

I'm just curious how you've completed a raid "50ish" times in less than 1 month????

By running it with multiple toons obviously...

You might need a clue before posting.

[Faent]

Ac gear takes equipment slots that could be used for dps or healing amp or dr or hit point gear.

You are operating under the utterly bizarre assumption that one's gearslots must be static. Have you heard of swapping gear? Familiar much with the turn of phrase "hot swapping"?

[Xenostrata]

Ummmmm....3 dragon marks + profiency makes 4.



I'm just curious how you've completed a raid "50ish" times in less than 1 month????

It's actually only really one feat, if you plan on only using the single weapon. 3 DM - 1 BS prof - 1 IC slash. The eFang is keen, and gives proficiency with itself with the first DM.

[gloopygloop]

I'm just curious how you've completed a raid "50ish" times in less than 1 month????

Some people have more than one capped character.

[etelan]

Lets get away from the thinking/considering and more into the posting of feats.. You will find with the posting of feats that fighters have about 7 or so feats that they divy up between toughness and tactical feats which really are not that great for tanking purposes. On an 18 pally 2 fighter you get the following:

Now I'm not saying that DoS makes a poor tank, but I do notice here that your DoS builds are always posted with a fighter splash. This is to make up for a short coming of the class. The same type of short coming that is discussed in this thread, yes? How does a pure DoS stack up with a pure SD?

The feat difference is really 12 not 11 since tower shield is just about required now. That's a tough difference to make up. Assuming there are no good tanking feats to take with those extra feats that's over 300 hitpoints of toughness. Just playing a bit of devil's advocate.

[etelan]

I'm currently messing around with the idea of a 12 Ftr Stalwart Defender/ 6 Paladin HotD just to see if I could make a viable tank as a gedankenexperiment. Not sure what path I would take (Shield AC or Monk AC), but it's at least interesting and there ain't nobody that would steal aggro.

Long story short, I think I agree with the OP. Paladin Divine Righteousness is outstanding, but you get that with 6 levels of Paladin and you don't get much after that.

Last I heard divine righteousness does not stack with defender stance. Can anyone confirm? I haven't used this ability regularly on my paladin since before we had pally PrE.

[gloopygloop]

I do not believe that divine righteousness stacks with the hate generation from defender stance. I haven't used this ability regularly on my paladin since before we had pally PrE.

Doesn't stack with the Defender of Syberis stance or with the Stalwart Defender stance? Or both?

...because DoS stance is a sacred bonus to threat just like Divine Righteousness while the Stalwart Defender bonus is a Competence bonus.

Unfortunately, I know of no way to directly measure total threat bonus in DDO. I also don't know which threat bonuses are additive and which are multiplicative.

[Lighti]

Dos Stance is Sacred, Divine Righteousseness is Competence Bonus. ie they stack

[Enoach]

On the Divine Righteousness stacking with Defender of Siberys

Divine Righteousness is a Competence Bonus
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...ighteousness_I

Stalwart Defender Stance Hate Bonus is a Competence Bonus

Defender of Siberys Stance Hate Bonus is a Sacred Bonus

I believe the bonus type change for DoS was part of the change made for Update 11
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...cement_Changes

It seems to me that would mean that 6 Levels of Paladin with 12 Levels of fighter using Divine Righteousness would only increase their current Hate bonus +50% while in SD II stance, but would increase their Hate bonus +100% while in DoS I stance for a Net bonus of +25% more Hate in DoS I. You would then need to factor in your -2 STR.
Looks like the SD would be better off going with 6 more levels of Fighter.

=========================================
Next I would like to point out that Glorious Stand and DoS Stance is not mutually exclusive. Glorious Stand is a Boost that can be used in or out of stance (the subject of a boost to this boost is a debat on/for another thread). Its limits being needs to consume a Turn Undead, it only lasts 30 seconds and has a 5 minute cooldown.

=========================================
The reason I choose a Paladin DoS over a Fighter SD

• Survivability - I don't have to put my whole fate in others hands
• Playstyle - I don't play a paladin like a fighter if I did I would be very disappointed no matter what gear or ability I have.

Both can be very effective.

[Jendrak]

You might want to look at the item description...



By running it with multiple toons obviously...

You might need a clue before posting.

Ooops....somehow i missed the profiecy in the description my mistake


I understood it to mean he had done it 50ish times on his pally. Maybe you should try understanding people make mistakes and read things differently before being an ass it tends to work better.

[maddmatt70]

Now I'm not saying that DoS makes a poor tank, but I do notice here that your DoS builds are always posted with a fighter splash. This is to make up for a short coming of the class. The same type of short coming that is discussed in this thread, yes? How does a pure DoS stack up with a pure SD?

The feat difference is really 12 not 11 since tower shield is just about required now. That's a tough difference to make up. Assuming there are no good tanking feats to take with those extra feats that's over 300 hitpoints of toughness. Just playing a bit of devil's advocate.

I am not sure that a tower shield is required.. I disagree with my guildie cleen or at least want more information on the neccessity of tower shields. Healing amp is very very powerfull in lieu of some dr. My 18 pally 2 fighter is human with close to max healing amp (could use a little bit more amp gear missing 10% on gear). Healing the tank in epic LOB quite a bit it seems like the damage is either heal scrollable or requires a heal/reconstruct spell I am not sure that extra 5 block/dr is going to really change the equation much more.

Why does a pally have to be pure or a fighter have to be pure for that matter where does it say that has to occur? 18 fighter 2 rogue is very nice as well although the new raid bosses can not be hamstrung. My guildy escariot tanks epic lob with 850ish hp on his fighter so what do you mean by 300 hit point of toughness making a monstrous difference.

[NaturalHazard]

Huh? Am I the only one who remembers the awesomesauce that is haste boost? Take FTR dps hasted and THEN multiply THAT by haste boost (x1.35).. Uh... yeah. What about powersurge and +1 crit range for FTR also? You seem to be missing a lot of info here dude.

Also, no way in shaverath is a DoS pally getting DM 4 for +8 damage. It requires like base 20 CHA.

I think what a lot of people are missing is the fact that all these paladin boosts are very very expensive on build points and enhancements and are further limmited by casting time and duration. Zeal needs to be recast, divine might as well, and the animation seems to take way to long for what it does.

Fighters got feats galore, and can afford quick draw a lot more easily, so you can get the most out of your power surges, haste boosts.

[etelan]

Why does a pally have to be pure or a fighter have to be pure for that matter where does it say that has to occur? 18 fighter 2 rogue is very nice as well although the new raid bosses can not be hamstrung.

Maybe it doesn't. I'm just thinking along the lines, SD is superior because of the feat selection, but you can offset that by taking fighter levels. Why should Paladins 'need' to offset a inferiority?

My guildy escariot tanks epic lob with 850ish hp on his fighter so what do you mean by 300 hit point of toughness making a monstrous difference.

Escariot probably carries a lot of non toughness feats with his extra 11. Which there is nothing wrong with. The 300 hitpoints is just another option that DoS doesn't have. Again this is just for the sake of discussion as I have no desire to change my DoS.