Pally Tank... Why Bother?

[lord_of_rage]

Poser , i looked up at your character: he's nothing special. Probably 95 ac is factoring lots of situational stuff.

No with the right gear and stats 18/2 dos paladins can reach 96-100 raid buffed ac with ce active in twf. The only non self cast buffs being a full ranger bark and a bard song. So thats still 90 ac self buffed. I dont see alot of fighters hitting that in twf with the paladins saves and evasion. Granted it does take a ton of gear but its absolutely possible.

[Lighti]

K let's actually compare DoS to SD


For dps purposes

both get 10% double strike

both get +6 str in tier 3 stance.

FIGHTER

+4 weapon spec feats
+1.5 get up to 3 more str
+2 Weapon spec enh
____ TIMES 1.3 FTR gets up to 30% haste boost

7.5 extra damage PLUS haste boost

Other: Fighters get 6 DR passive from SD pre
Fighters can choose Horc for more damage bonuses without costing a feat that a pally might need to choose human for.
Fighters get a butt-load more feats and therefore lots more hit points as a tank



PALLY

+3 DF
+4 DM2 (more realistic)
+3.5 to evil if staying pure pally.. which a DoS would be a little silly to do because he'll want more feats
+4.9 7d6 divine sac. II every 5 swings or so (avg 24.5/5)
________

+11.9/15.4 per swing

+Smites


*Far fewer feats
*Prolly fewer HPs
*+5 LoH self heals

So so wrong on the Pali side there. Easily take DS 3, Easily take DM 3. You dont actually need all of those feats. Hav a perfectly **** good Dwarven DoS Paladin. Yes less hp than a Ftr, but better saves, better survivability.

You can no keep your boosts going permanently on any class so the 30% bonus is not what it looks like

[DarkieUK]

Finally some decent numbers to work with thanks.

Now im not sure that the HP is really a vaild fighter advantage only because the Hp threshold needed for tanking is far below what both DoS and SD pull with the recent changes to both PrE's.

In either case i still dont see where Pally are so far behind fighter that they need extra love to be equal. This seems to suggest to the contrary.

thanks you totaly right even after including perm hast boost. was trying to say that all along but at 3 am and tired seems im not very good at exsplaning it

[Meat-Head]

So so wrong on the Pali side there. Easily take DS 3, Easily take DM 3. You dont actually need all of those feats. Hav a perfectly **** good Dwarven DoS Paladin. Yes less hp than a Ftr, but better saves, better survivability.

You can no keep your boosts going permanently on any class so the 30% bonus is not what it looks like

define "easily" please. DS3 requires 19 pally levels.

DM3 requires base 18 CHA. I would think DoS would be a little thin on stats. But, it's doable with tomes, I agree. If you're going for AC AT ALL, tho, it's basically impossible.

[Lighti]

15 base +3 tome = 18 not unreasonable
or even
16 bse +2 tome = 18

[DarkieUK]

define "easily" please. DS3 requires 19 pally levels.

DM3 requires base 18 CHA. I would think DoS would be a little thin on stats. But, it's doable with tomes, I agree. If you're going for AC AT ALL, tho, it's basically impossible.

36 point build basick pali
16 str
14 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
16 cha

1 point of max damage but but i dont see how its "basically impossible"

[gloopygloop]

36 point build basick pali
16 str
14 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
16 cha

1 point of max damage but but i dont see how its "basically impossible"

"36 point" and "basic" don't belong in the same phrase.

Thankfully, everyone can count on a +3 tome if they really want one now that they're available in the store.

[Meat-Head]

36 point build basick pali
16 str
14 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
16 cha

1 point of max damage but but i dont see how its "basically impossible"

IF you're going for AC you'll want CE which requires 13 int. Also, you'll want higher dex for AC. ALso, you've eliminated the possibility (w/o +3 tome) for TWF which for every situation EXCEPT tanking it's far superior on a pally due to DS, SMites, DM, etc.. all possibly procing on off-hand. Lastly, 14 CON on a "tank" without extra room for toughness feats.. well, it's not optimal.

So, yeah. IF AC is a concern, DM3 is a problem.

[BDog77]

The other thing i really don't see mentioned here, and if I missed it, I'm sorry, but Exalted Smite actually adds +2 to your crit damage multiplier, meaning you can actually have a times 6 on a crit. My Pally routinely crits for over 250 base only (not including to extra effects, frost etc) using a falchon (and that is only a x4 multiplier).

[Lighti]

IF you're going for AC you'll want CE which requires 13 int. Also, you'll want higher dex for AC. ALso, you've eliminated the possibility (w/o +3 tome) for TWF which for every situation EXCEPT tanking it's far superior on a pally due to DS, SMites, DM, etc.. all possibly procing on off-hand. Lastly, 14 CON on a "tank" without extra room for toughness feats.. well, it's not optimal.

So, yeah. IF AC is a concern, DM3 is a problem.

It all mainly depends on duild, if you want shield feats then you cant have TWF feats.
Dex
Base 14
item 6
Excep 1 (any epic item)
Exceo 2 (Swashbuckler)
Tome 1/3
=24/26

To use that you need 7/8 max dex bonus on your armour (asuming pure so FP)
You get 2 from DoS Line, 3 Mithral fp =5
To get your Armour max dex bonus up to 7/8 you either need to be dwarf.

14 base dex is perfectly reasonable

(before you say if you its using epic items, if you dont have epic you dont have AC)

[gloopygloop]

It all mainly depends on duild, if you want shield feats then you cant have TWF feats.

One of the nice things that Fighters have to offer.

[DarkieUK]

IF you're going for AC you'll want CE which requires 13 int. Also, you'll want higher dex for AC. ALso, you've eliminated the possibility (w/o +3 tome) for TWF which for every situation EXCEPT tanking it's far superior on a pally due to DS, SMites, DM, etc.. all possibly procing on off-hand. Lastly, 14 CON on a "tank" without extra room for toughness feats.. well, it's not optimal.

So, yeah. IF AC is a concern, DM3 is a problem.

if you want ac at end game you looking at 85-90

epick crono sets
tod sets
shroud items
thraask braces/ epick clock of night
chatering ring/epick grims baclet
epick amor (red or CC even)
CC Epick shieled/Von shieled/Hound shieled


so if you looking at ac then +3 tomes are the easy bit. If you got that much epick gear around then 2 tr is basick as well

as for dex
14 base
6 item
+1 excp
+2 excp
+3 tome
+2 ship
28 thats a +9 bonus is the max you need

lets take red scale as it one of the best you get
2 base
2 grater nimblness
2 dos line
now you stuck unless you go dwarth fot the extra 3

so i think 14 base is enouth

edit unles you looking atmulty clasing and splashing monk

14 con is about 700-750 hp end game i think thats not grate but is ok

[Xenostrata]

Hate ot say it... But I may agree with you now that I look at it. DPS-wise FOR TANKS, Pally seems to have a lead.

Plus, the pally can splash for evasion and feats with monk. OR feats and 15% haste boost with ftr..


Feats ARE an issue tho.

TH(w)F x3
imp crit
PA
SHield mastery
Toughness

That's 7.

Pallys like extend often times for those short term buffs. I know I do. They still seem short.

Go human for 1 more PLUS Human vers for damage bonus?

Hm... It looks decent in a way.. Maybe I'll roll a tank.. lol

Feats aren't the only issue, AP wise a Paladin loses a lot when he goes DoS over KotC.
8 - PrE
6 - faith
6 - ac aura
6 - saves aura
1 - fear aura
10 - ac boost
= 37 points, JUST on the PrE. Add in
2 - capstone
6 - human stat bonuses
6 - extra LoH
6 - Pal cha (few can afford the last tier)
10 - human damage boost
12 - human and Pal toughness
12 - Healing Amp
= 91. Hm. How exactly would you plan on fitting in ANY smite enhancements, let alone Exalted Smite?

Edit: Also, I'd like to add a rule to this thread that if you haven't played a Paladin at endgame then you aren't allowed to use this phrase (or any equivalent phrase) "Paladins have more dps than fighters."

[mournbladereigns]

6 Paladin to get Divine Righteousness is enough to get all of the hate generation that you could want in the game. +100% Sacred bonus to threat is huge and you get 3+Cha mod number of minutes of it.

16 Cha +6 item +2 Exceptional +1 Exceptional + 3 Tome = 28 Cha
= 9 minutes of +100% hate

I'm currently messing around with the idea of a 12 Ftr Stalwart Defender/ 6 Paladin HotD just to see if I could make a viable tank as a gedankenexperiment. Not sure what path I would take (Shield AC or Monk AC), but it's at least interesting and there ain't nobody that would steal aggro.

Long story short, I think I agree with the OP. Paladin Divine Righteousness is outstanding, but you get that with 6 levels of Paladin and you don't get much after that.

I have a half-elf 12ftr/6pal/2Monk build I made, Kensai II/DoS. Good saves, plenty of hate gen, and Plenty of general use DPS. BS & Board with full THF, so can whip out a falchion for pure DPSing. sitting at lvl 9 right now though. Haven't played much since they change Defender PrE. SDII/HoTD wouldn't be bad option.

[Meat-Head]

Feats aren't the only issue, AP wise a Paladin loses a lot when he goes DoS over KotC.
8 - PrE
6 - faith
6 - ac aura
6 - saves aura
1 - fear aura
10 - ac boost
= 37 points, JUST on the PrE. Add in
2 - capstone
6 - human stat bonuses
6 - extra LoH
6 - Pal cha (few can afford the last tier)
10 - human damage boost
12 - human and Pal toughness
12 - Healing Amp
= 91. Hm. How exactly would you plan on fitting in ANY smite enhancements, let alone Exalted Smite?

Good call dude. I knew it would be tight.. But you show it's a blackhole of tightness. Glad u broke that down.

[Xenostrata]

Good call dude. I knew it would be tight.. But you show it's a blackhole of tightness. Glad u broke that down.

It gets worse - ac aura is actually 10, not 6. So 95 total. Have fun

[DarkieUK]

Edit: Also, I'd like to add a rule to this thread that if you haven't played a Paladin at endgame then you aren't allowed to use this phrase (or any equivalent phrase) "Paladins have more dps than fighters."

only played dwarth paladin with ac at end game drop the human stuff and took smite i worry about lousing agro on my ftr never lost it on my pali more dam and more threat on him

i will admit it hell of a lot more work to build them right more room for mistakes on a ftr
ap wise pali its a lot of tir 2-3 of balancing things ftr easly max a lot of ap

so i say it loud and proud "Paladins have more dps than fighters"

[Lighti]

Feats aren't the only issue, AP wise a Paladin loses a lot when he goes DoS over KotC.
8 - PrE
6 - faith
6 - ac aura
6 - saves aura
1 - fear aura
10 - ac boost
= 37 points, JUST on the PrE. Add in
2 - capstone
6 - human stat bonuses
6 - extra LoH
6 - Pal cha (few can afford the last tier)
10 - human damage boost
12 - human and Pal toughness
12 - Healing Amp
= 91. Hm. How exactly would you plan on fitting in ANY smite enhancements, let alone Exalted Smite?

Edit: Also, I'd like to add a rule to this thread that if you haven't played a Paladin at endgame then you aren't allowed to use this phrase (or any equivalent phrase) "Paladins have more dps than fighters."

You dont need to take the full line of things to gain benefits. SD will have exactly the same issue.
Dont need Heal Amp.
You get 2 LoH base by going DoS, Spend 1 AP and make it 3
Only take 1st 2 Toughness Enhancements from each Line
Really need full damage boost line?
Human Stats may only be needed to even stats out.

just saved you 43 AP

[Lighti]

Edit: Also, I'd like to add a rule to this thread that if you haven't played a Paladin at endgame then you aren't allowed to use this phrase (or any equivalent phrase) "Paladins have more dps than fighters."

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/lightazk/

have also played a AC ftr. Paladins easily more DPS aswell as the bonus hate.

[vyvy3369]

Having played both (although the Fighter lives were a while ago), they're pretty close in overall effectiveness. If both are around, the SD tends to make a better actual tank since they also benefit from the DoS's aura. Either way though, it's close enough that it would come down more on the side of who was the better player or who had slightly better gear. I will say that DoS is much easier to run outside of raids though.

Re: Paladin enhancements discussion - DoS only requires the first tier of armor boost, and tier 3 of AC and Resist, so that saves you a bundle from what you're describing. No, I can't fit everything in...but I couldn't on my Fighter lives either.