Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[Pape_27]

Simply put, this is not balanced.

False assumption.

I can see how someone who likes playing melee DPS characters might be a bit annoyed.

This is what you meant to say.


The spell isnt op, it isnt out of balance, in terms of damage delivered.

[ShadowFlash]

This is a re-post of the new 1st and 2nd posts representing no less than a dozen different calculations, correcting and tweaking the formulas along the way.

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***I have completely Re-Edited Posts #1 and #2 with my final math numbers. Many thanks to everyone who helped me out along the way. Special thanks to not letting this thread degenerate into an argument on OP-DP nerfing. The math provided here could vey well lead to that, or it could be used as defense to that...I have my own personal bias which I'm trying to subdue, and I appreciate everyone else doing the same. Discussion continues after post #103 where all of this is re-posted for continuity sake***

This Thread attempts to put a mathematical value on Divine Punishment. This also attempt to correct all of the myths and misconceptions revolving around this spell. This is NOT the thread to discuss how/if DP should be re-balanced, or how/if DP is overpowered. It is merely Raw Data.

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*Points of Reference discussed along the journey...

Divine Punishment does NOT use loaded dice

Divine Punishment DOES cap at caster level 20

Eardweller REPLACES values such as potency or brilliance

FvS AoV PrE does NOT provide a static 30% boost to light spells (this seems to be a very common misconception)

FvS AoV Shield of Condemnation light curse is almost impossible to quantify. The currenttly accepted average is 20% de-buff, but is still open to debate. This varies greatly depending on the individual boss, the main tank's AC, and the number of FvS's in the party, so I'm leaving this out of my calculations. It is easy to apply this value to any of my final numbes if so desired, but I do encourage caution here as this is a calculation over time and whether or not it procs at the full 50% at times is mitigated by times it doesn't proc at all. Again, 20% seems to be the accepted norm.

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*The Formulas and mathematical process I use is as follows ...

1 Tic = 2 seconds with no initial tic (common knowlwedge)

Base damage = 1d6+CL = (1+6)/2 + CL = 3.5+CL

Base x [ 1(represents no feats) + 1(maximize) + .5(empower)] x [ 1(represents no gear/enhancements) + .4(enhancement) + (1 for eardweller, .75 for superior brilliance V clickie, or .5 for superior potency V)] = A

Simplified this is... Base x 2.5 x 2.4(eardweller represented) = A

Critical Chance per 100 Tics = [ 9(enhancement) + (Lore Item)] = B

Critical Multiplier = [ 2.25(Enhancement) + (Lore Item) = C

Calculating Average Tics (including Criticals)....
{[(100 - B) x A) + ( A x B x C )] / 100} = Average Tic = D

Starting DPS calculations are based off the 1st 34 seconds of average tics. The Tier III number can be used as a representaion of the maximum achievable DPS, but in fact will never be reached due to diminishing mathematical returns, overall time, and total damge dealt. Tier III damage should be used as reference only and never as an accurate representation of DPS.

Tier I = D(average tic) x 5(10 seconds then stacking to next tier) = E
Tier II = D x 2 x 5 = F
Tier III = D x 3 x 7(14 seconds until refreshing the full triple stack) = G

To get average DPS over the 1st 34 seconds we take...
(E + F + G) / 34 = starting DPS
G / 2 = theoretical final Tier III DPS

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As long as the triple stack is maintained, the DPS will very slowly move from the starting DPS to the theoretical Tier III DPS. Again, reaching this point is mathematically impossible, but is nice to use as a reference.

Once I lay out all the formulas it seems much more complicated than it really is, but I'm attempting to be thourough. Also, by assigning A-G values to each step of the equation it allows me to plug all of this in to my trusty TI-81 graphic calculator for rapid calculations, so any special requests, just ask

I'm not going to show all of my work in the interest of TL,DR (I have pages in my DDO notebook devoted to these calculations), but I have provided all the formula's and methodology I've used so anyone can re-check my numbers.

On to the Results...

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My first example is CL:20 and should represent a fresh level 20 with basic gearing. Feats are maximize and Empower. Gear includes Superior Brilliance V clickie and Elfcrafted Robes. All Smiting Lines are considered Maxxed. This leads to a starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.15 with a 15% chance to critical for 2.5x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 163
Tier III sustained DPS = 231 (unreachable as noted above)

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Up next is a high level Set-up. Feats and Enhancements remain unchanged. Gear now includes Superior Brilliance V and a Tier II Alchemical crafted Mystical Superior Radiance Lore Weapon. This leads to a starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.15 with the maximum 21% chance to crit for 2.75x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 182
Tier III sustained DPS = 259 (unreachable as noted above)

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Finally we'll go for the maximum achievable DPS set-up. Feats and Enhancements remain unchanged. Gear now includes a Tier II Alchemical crafted Mystical Superior Radiance Lore Weapon and the Eardweller. This leads to a maximum achievable starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.4 with the maximum 21% chance to crit for 2.75x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 203
Tier III sustained DPS = 288 (unreachable as noted above)

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Conclusions:

Reaching 300 sustained average over time including Criticals is not possible

Realistically, the highest DPS a divine will ever see is 250, and that is perfectly geared

The RSII +2 to alignment and light based spells is only useful in reference to DP on splashed builds due to the level 20 Cap.

For the typical Level 20 Divine, a value of 200DPS would probablly be the most realistic representation of Divine Punishments damage.

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That's it ! I think this is my final perfected numbers...Thanks again to everyone who helped along the way.

ShadowFlash

[ShadowFlash]

Just for a fun exercise as long as my math helmet is still on

Using the highest obtainable DPS numbers with an eardweller (3 minutes total)

Initial 34 Seconds = 6912 damage
140 seconds @ Tier III = 40320 damage

Total damage over 176 seconds = 47232 on average

Now here's the fun part...that is 268DPS, at which point the eardweller is exhausted. The eardweller is exclusive, so at this point, superior brilliance V is the best bet, which caps at a maximum 259 DPS. So after a short, temporary spike to 268 DPS, the actual maximum possible sustained Divine Punishment DPS will be capped at a 259 average. Of course, this assumes the full stack is maintained for at least 3 minutes straight, without interruption, AND you are required to deliver at least 47,000 points of damage to a single target.

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Another fun exercise just for SHADE Testing would be nice here...hint hint

the Risia Portal...AKA DPS challenge Part 2

12000 hp (is not light immune according to the wiki) and no chance of FvS de-buffs skewing calculations

Maximum Gear Set-up used...
initial 34 seconds = 6912 damage
9 additional tics (18 seconds) = 5184
Total of 12,096 damage in 52 seconds using ONLY Divine Punishment should theoretically be possible. This equates to 232 DPS against a 100% fort target.

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Numbers are Fun
ShadowFlash

[ToKu]

The thread title of overestimating is referring to those claiming DP does way more damage than it does by quoting ridiculously high critical numbers as common place. I am not disputing any other aspect, including efficiency or convenience. You are correct in that I should have not compared it to the also grossly exaggerated barbarian 600 DPS in the interest of thread purity, and for that I apologize. I am human too after all, and sometimes my personal opinions will show through. I just don't want this thread to deteriorate into "another one of those". I haven't seen anyone do the actual math, hence my efforts. I'm showing my formulas and my work in an attempt at tranceparency so personal bias will not be a factor. My math does not attempt to skew the results in any direction...it simply is what it is.

I guess at this point, the only way to know for sure if RSII is bugged, or DP is capped at 20 would be to try similar testing with a level 20 wearing either the chaos robes or abashi set.

Edit: It's my understanding from the description of spell augmentation, that the ONLY form that stands a chance of boosting CL is in fact the infused chaos robes. The descriptions for arcane augmentation state wizard/sorcerer which makes sense, as we're talking divine not arcane. However, descriptions are often wrong or misleading, so does arcane augmentation help divines? Arcane Lore does.

Gotcha, yeah it was the comparing it to barbs that gave me the impression it was an attempt to downplay the overall impact this spell is having.

I do agree that some people are grossly over estimating the DPS potential and in that aspect I shall leave it to you math'n peoples!

[Rodasch]

I play Divines not Arcanes, but I would encourage someone more knowledgeable on the Sorcerer PrE and apllicable gearing to do similar calculations. I'm guessing the accepted forum numbers are also greatly exaggerated due to everyone wanting to see the maximum possible value, and not the true average DPS. My bias may be showing, but I'm guessing the sorcerer savant easily surpasses my divine numbers regardless. Just the basic ability to obtain a much higher caster level than the equivalent divine would support this hypothesis. This however is as it should be, as arcanes do not have a melee mode to fall back on, nor do they heal regularly....although they have much better crowd control to fall back upon in non-boss situations, not to mention an actual diverse spell-based offensive repetoire.

Simply put, the comparisons are outside the scope of this thread

For savants, the DoT spells do approximately 300 dps fully stacked for the appropriate element considering max AP and gear in the element and a 75% clicky. Slightly less for off-element. (250-270 for non-penalized element, much less for penalized element)

The calcs for this have been shown in numerous threads already and MrCow agrees with my calcs here.

[Maugrim101]

I've only read a few posts (Got bored when the OP discussion started). My question is, how are you sure about the max caster level?

I'm not saying I doubt you, I'm just interested to know the source of that info. I geared my FvS with a 3 peice abishi partly because of the +3 To Evocation levels and just assumed it would take it to CL23. I would probably keep the gear (The other features are worth it), I guess I just want to be sure where this info comes from.

Thanks in advance.

[gloopygloop]

I've only read a few posts (Got bored when the OP discussion started). My question is, how are you sure about the max caster level?

I'm not saying I doubt you, I'm just interested to know the source of that info. I geared my FvS with a 3 peice abishi partly because of the +3 To Evocation levels and just assumed it would take it to CL23. I would probably keep the gear (The other features are worth it), I guess I just want to be sure where this info comes from.

Thanks in advance.

Take off all of your gear that would enhance the damage. In fact, you can get completely naked (in game) to make sure you don't have anythingt that would change the numbers. Talk to the trainer and reset your enhancements so that they aren't increasing your damage. Turn off all of your metamagic.

Now, cast a single stack of your spell and write down the biggest and smallest number that you get over several attempts. Compare that damage with the expected damage that the spell "should" give.

Then equip the three pieces of the Abishai set and cast a single stack of the spell several times. Write down the biggest and smallest number that you get over several attempts. Remember to account for any potency or similiar effects that might be on any items that you are equipping to get your caster level above 20 when you compare that damage with the expected damage that the spell "should" give.

And don't forget to take your enhancements again before you go questing.

[ShadowFlash]

I've only read a few posts (Got bored when the OP discussion started). My question is, how are you sure about the max caster level?

I'm not saying I doubt you, I'm just interested to know the source of that info. I geared my FvS with a 3 peice abishi partly because of the +3 To Evocation levels and just assumed it would take it to CL23. I would probably keep the gear (The other features are worth it), I guess I just want to be sure where this info comes from.

Thanks in advance.

Page 5..starting at post #95...multiple people tested, with combat log screenshots included...the results bummed me out a bit too, although I have a 17/2/1 cleric build which will still make use of them when/if I aquire the set.

[Maugrim101]

Page 5..starting at post #95...multiple people tested, with combat log screenshots included...the results bummed me out a bit too, although I have a 17/2/1 cleric build which will still make use of them when/if I aquire the set.

Thanks for the response, Much appreciated.

[FuzzyDuck81]

So many complicated numbers.. *brain ache* still nice to know how well this pans out.. methinks i will be spending many, many motes of night on potions of irians light, for situational dps boosts until i finally get around to farming & hopefully eventually pulling an eardweller.

[ShadowFlash]

So...I was asked/volunteered to do some math for a deep splashed cleric monkcher build with different gearing to see which provides the best DP DPS. Rather than hurt my brain repeating calculations until my head exploded, I broke out my trusty 20 year old TI-81 graohics calculator, and wrote a program to make my life easier Now I can literally do any special request combinations in seconds. Information I would need for custom calcs are....

Total Caster Level (including Greater Abashi Set +3 and/or infused chaos robes)
Empower and/or maximize taken
Enhancement Smite %
Enhancement Critical %
Enhancement Critical Multiplier
Gear Potency/Radiance %
Gear Lore Crit %
Gear Lore Multiplier

ShadowFlash

[ShadowFlash]

The conditions for the requested calculations were as follows
RS Cleric 13 = CL15 DP
Empower
Maximize
Superior Brilliance clicky (only thing better is eardweller)

Enhancements were stated at 4 tiers Smite (40%) and 1 each of the prayers (3% 1.75 multiplier) for 12 AP total.
In all gear scenarios, I found that 3 tiers Smite (30%) and 2 Tiers each of the Prayers ( 6% 2.0 multiplier) yielded a minimum 10 DPS increase for the same 12 AP cost, so that is what I'm using.

Query: CL vs Lore

Greater Abashi set CL+3
Infused Chaos Robes slotted with Arcane Lore (6% .25 multiplier) CL+1
results 198 maximum DPS

Greater Abashi set CL+3
Blue Dragon Scale Robes Greater Arcane Lore (9% .25 multiplier)
results 196 maximum DPS

Extreme Case:
Alchemical Crafting Superior Lore 12% .5 multiplier
NO OTHER RELEVANT GEAR
results 180 maximum DPS

Conclusion: In this case, and most other scenarios I tested, CL+1=Lore 3%. This does not include any additional Critical multipliers. In my extreme example, you can see just how important lore is...An extra 6% and .25 multiplier only lags 18 DPS despite 4 CL's lower!!!

And now for the wild side
RS Cleric 13
Tier IV Smiting (40%)
Tier Prayers (9% 2.25 multiplier)
(Spent AP = 22)
Greater Might of the Abashi +3 CL
Infused Chaos Robes (slotted to preference, no lore)
Alchemical crafted Superior Radiance Lore
eardweller
Total CL = 19

results: 276 maximum DPS

I'll be happy to do any other special requests
ShadowFlash