Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[Bufo_Alvarius]

especially to melees who think they are the be all, end all of this game.

Simply put, casters are the high skill toons in this game.

Only a troll would put these two sentiments together. /yawn

[GermanicusMaximus]

Only a troll would put these two sentiments together. /yawn

LMAO. I was waiting to see who would be the first to identify himself as a one-hander.

[ShadowFlash]

way to many things to quote

1st: I to am sick of the unrealistic numbers spewed out for all DoT's, hence this thread, which attempts to put real numbers behind it...not the obnoxious what-if holy cow look at that big number crit kind of thing. Again, Damage over Time....needs to be calculated as just that NOT what kin of obnoxious big crit number we can see once in a blue moon. Crits are important to the calcs though, hence they are correctly mathematically represented.

2nd: What I meant by "maintain" the de-buff stack (bad wording) is an attempt to put a realistic number OVER TIME to represent the actual damage gained from the shield. I realize sometimes there will be Zero stacks...sometimes there will be 3 or maybe even 5 for a short time. It is a very difficult to quantify and unreliable variable which is why I've left it out of my calculations so far. Common advice is to assign a general 20% value averaged over time.

@Shade: Yes, we all make mistakes late at night when we've been drinking....that was me last night too the difference is, I was looking for corrections to my math, and was more than willing to admit and adjust errors if found. Your posts however, did nothing other than to claim my math was wrong, question my research, spew incorrect facts, and state controversial maximum ideal condition critical numbers. This a the type of gross misrepresentation this math aims to stop.

This one's for the dump stat nerf-it crowd...In this example I'll use the "worst offender" 15/3/2 build...common for the dump stat "battle-cleric" crowd...assuming elfcrafted robes and sup bril V clickie, along with max and emp.

CL15= 139 DPS over the 1st 34 seconds

wow...yeah, nerf that...

All this of course is amusing, as the same people claiming OP because divines can melee while keeping DP stacked are the same people who claim "battle-cleric" melee DPS is so horrible that it only does between 10-50% of the damage a true DPS spot would do.

[ShadowFlash]

@ my magical 600 DPS raging barbarian number....

Yes, I know it is not a real world expectation, but that is why I used it. It's common to see this number thrown out in the forums, just like it's common to hear DP tics for 3k.

So a few math questions...

what would a realistic top-tier melee DPS be ? Put an agreeable number on it.

what would a decent "battle-cleric" melee DPS be ? Put a number on it.

what would a pure FvS melee DPS be ? Put a number on it.

Loaded Dice ? Does DP use them or not ? Is this confirmed ? If in fact it does NOT use loaded dice, then all my numbers are to high, and DPS will actually be LOWER.

Caster Level ? Can anyone confirm if DP caps at 20 ? Theoretically, a CL of 25 is achievable by by an RSII cleric wearing the 3-piece abashi set, so this would be nice to know.

Power-Creep is a term thrown around a lot. I think what is generally happening is "forum-creep", as everyone wants to appear so uber on paper they only take MAXIMUM ideal condition numbers, and don't truly represent real-world playable numbers. (Shade's newest DPS challenge is actually a nice start toward real-world representaion) It makes debates very confusing, as either Maximum numbers or realistic numbers are thrown out depending on what suits a posters view in any specific thread the best. I.E. divine's shouldn't melee because it's so gimp compared to my raging barb in one thread, and Divine's are so OP because they can melee and stack DP in another.

Edit: perfect example is to look back at the first page of this thread...I showed 210 starting DPS working up to a realistic 250DPS as time progressed. A few posts down, it's aready stated at 300 DPS....a few more posts down and now it's 300-400 DPS while standing safely back doing nothing...see...forum-creep

Lastly, I wasn't aware that divine's have "dozens" of useful offensive spells at level 20 to use during those specific times DP would be stacked. Other spells for trash, sure....but of course, then the DPS fom DP is not a factor.

[Rodasch]

Sorry, I meant a few demons that you would actually bother casting it on. This is something that seems to get consistently lost in all of these "ZOMG NERF THE DOTZ!" threads...there are very, very few monsters in the game where you can justify using these spells at all. Basically, anything that isn't red or purple named, and isn't death warded is a non-contender for a DoT application. The DoTs are horribly SP inefficient, and very slow. This severely limits which targets they are useful for. About the only trash monster I'd ever seriously consider using DP on would be a vampire, just because of their regen and teleporting silliness, plus they are light vulnerable.

I can't think of any time I would ever use DP or Elidar's (sp) on some random flesh render or fire reaver. Yes, technically they are immune (to the electricity)...it also doesn't matter for the purposes of these spells. This is far more of a melee consideration.

I'm not arguing against these points, I just wanted to be sure the information was represented accurately. The way you had it worded was misleading, even if unintentionally so. My point was to illustrate that neither eladar's nor niac's has the same shortage of "dot viable" targets which are immune. Even discounting trash, the list for light based spells is much shorter.

Yes, it is a larger list of lightning immunes. But again: SO WHAT? You don't ever use the spell on them in the first place. Blue Dragons...plural. Like there's one hiding outside of the Tor that nobody else is familiar with? DoTs are highly inadvisable on Tor dragons, since it can kill them out of synch with the giant and force you to do it all over again.

I've never once had a problem with dotting the dragons in Tor causing the deaths to go out of synch. It's about knowing how fast the dots kill and what you need to do to keep both targets balanced in health. It just means you need to cycle between the two and watch both life bars and nuke down the one that's not keeping up so they stay even. I know it's more work, but that's what you have to do if you want to contribute max dps to the fight.

As for Blue Dragons, yeah, so far there's not any outside of Tor that you actually fight, though I really wish there were, I sure could use an easier supply of blue scales

All in all, I'm not disagreeing with you, just clarifying things.

[Rodasch]

I'd add Liches and Doomspheres to your list, especially since they are also immune to Niac's Biting Cold. While Cholthulzz is not a critical opponent, you do face him in some relevant quests (same with Raiyum, lich Sor'Jek, etc). But mostly, the Black Abbot is the key boss here with 100% arcane stacking-DoT immunity. At least we have Black Dragon Bolt now, before it was just Disintegrate/DBF/Meteors.

You are absolutely correct. I remember being so annoyed in the Cholthulzz fight (both in litany and GoP) because my cold secondary specced air sorc couldn't do anything to him damage wise, and Raiyum at level was the same thing. I'm not looking forward to dealing with Abbot this life until I get some more spell variety.

[Habreno]

Divine Punishment does not use loaded dice, I have tested this. Would appreciate a confirmation from a secondary source.

[Gempoult]

Superior Brilliance doesn't add 75% damage to DP, it adds 50%, might be a bug but its 100% true, tested million times on my FvS. Thats doesn't make the DP that less overpowered anyway

[Lord_Thanatos]

Superior Brilliance doesn't add 75% damage to DP, it adds 50%, might be a bug but its 100% true, tested million times on my FvS. Thats doesn't make the DP that less overpowered anyway

All specific element caster clickies are 75%, they have been 75% since the change, only the text bug has come back.

[justagame]

People who post calcs for melee dps are using ideal conditions, stationary targets, builds for maximum damage with little to no self sufficiency and epic gear. Why should casters be any different? What makes the comparison to barb dps even sillier is that a FvS can do all of that damage with no real sacrifices to healing ability or buffs.

And there's a difference between simply assuming great gear, and misrepresenting rare circumstances. It's intellectually dishonest to quote max crit numbers that can't possibly be attained until after a 3rd stacking, with multiple debuff stacks (which only rarely happens), and by definition are even on the best geared casters a tiny percentage of all tics, and representing them as typical numbers. And that doesn't even account for the sp cast involved, and pretending that those castings can be as numerous as swings from a melee.

Why should a divine have to sacrifice healing just to be able to do some damage? Arcanes have dots as well, and have the same freedom of action in between castings. WF arcanes have had survivability, damage output, self-healing, and boss damaging ability that far exceeds what divines have had for a long, long time, and no one has said jack about it. Something about divines having offensive power just gives some people trouble, I guess.

[gloopygloop]

Superior Brilliance doesn't add 75% damage to DP, it adds 50%, might be a bug but its 100% true, tested million times on my FvS. Thats doesn't make the DP that less overpowered anyway

Superior Brilliance adds 75% to DP. It ends up looking similar to 50% because it adds to enhancements rather than multiplying with them.

Here is the correct calculation method that shows enhancements and items stacking additively with 75% damage boost from Superior Brilliance:
1 * (1.4 + .75) = 2.15

Here is the the calculation method that you would expect to use with enhancements and items stacking multiplicatively with 50% damage boost from Superior Brilliance:
1 * (1.4) * (1.5) = 2.1

They're very similar, but that's just a coincidence. If you reset your enhancements and test the Superior Brilliance clicky with no enhancements at all, you'll see that it does give 75%. That 75% just doesn't end up being a real 75% multiplier after you take your enhancements again. (and don't do what I did last time and start running quests before remembering to re-take my enhancements!)

[Gempoult]

Superior Brilliance adds 75% to DP. It ends up looking similar to 50% because it adds to enhancements rather than multiplying with them.

Here is the correct calculation method that shows enhancements and items stacking additively with 75% damage boost from Superior Brilliance:
1 * (1.4 + .75) = 2.15

Here is the the calculation method that you would expect to use with enhancements and items stacking multiplicatively with 50% damage boost from Superior Brilliance:
1 * (1.4) * (1.5) = 2.1

They're very similar, but that's just a coincidence. If you reset your enhancements and test the Superior Brilliance clicky with no enhancements at all, you'll see that it does give 75%. That 75% just doesn't end up being a real 75% multiplier after you take your enhancements again. (and don't do what I did last time and start running quests before remembering to re-take my enhancements!)

That is the case then, still not calculated correct in the comparison to the melee dps in initial post

[gloopygloop]

That is the case then, still not calculated correct in the comparison to the melee dps in initial post

OP's calculation is correct.

81 x [ 1 + 1(max) + .5(emp)] x [ 1 + .75(sup brilliance) + .4(enhancements)]


Feats add to each other.
Items and Enhancements add to each other.
Feats multiply with Items/Enhancements.

[ShadowFlash]

Superior Brilliance adds 75% to DP. It ends up looking similar to 50% because it adds to enhancements rather than multiplying with them.

Here is the correct calculation method that shows enhancements and items stacking additively with 75% damage boost from Superior Brilliance:
1 * (1.4 + .75) = 2.15

Here is the the calculation method that you would expect to use with enhancements and items stacking multiplicatively with 50% damage boost from Superior Brilliance:
1 * (1.4) * (1.5) = 2.1

They're very similar, but that's just a coincidence. If you reset your enhancements and test the Superior Brilliance clicky with no enhancements at all, you'll see that it does give 75%. That 75% just doesn't end up being a real 75% multiplier after you take your enhancements again. (and don't do what I did last time and start running quests before remembering to re-take my enhancements!)

base x 2.5 (feats) x 2.15 (enhancements&brilliance) is what I correctly used throughout.

Divine Punishment does not use loaded dice, I have tested this. Would appreciate a confirmation from a secondary source.

I didn't want to hear that now I have to redo everything. This will make all DPS values lower than my original calculations.

And there's a difference between simply assuming great gear, and misrepresenting rare circumstances. It's intellectually dishonest to quote max crit numbers that can't possibly be attained until after a 3rd stacking, with multiple debuff stacks (which only rarely happens), and by definition are even on the best geared casters a tiny percentage of all tics, and representing them as typical numbers. And that doesn't even account for the sp cast involved, and pretending that those castings can be as numerous as swings from a melee.

Thank You. That is the point I'm attempting to make. There's a lot of intentional misrepresentation here on the forums to help substantiate a fear-mongering point of view, and It's nice to be able to see the true math behind it all.

[Habreno]

I didn't want to hear that now I have to redo everything. This will make all DPS values lower than my original calculations.

Sorry lol... 99% sure though.

[sweez]

Very few Barbarians actually have 600 DPS.

Just about every Cleric/FvS should get close to the DP numbers that you're calculating (or higher for FvS).

When I bring my FvS into a Shroud PUG, I run one portal ahead of the rest of the group and I DP that portal while I wait for the rest of the group to catch up. I usually have the portal down to at least 50% by the time the other 9-11 party members catch up (depending on how many Arcanes are killing trash). All I'm doing is swinging a +2 Holy Greatsword of Smiting and casting DP. And most of those groups have at least a few Fighters and Barbarians.

Obviously, I'm still getting my crit numbers and they're not getting any crit numbers in melee, but I'd say that it's unlikely that they're hitting 600 DPS if I can take a portal down to 50% in the time that it takes 8+ of them to kill one portal and then run to mine. And my FvS is really nothing special, so don't think of this as a brag on myself. It's just a note that the super-DPS that some few characters on each server have is not representative of the median DPS that you'll see among the capped characters wandering around each server.

Most DPS builds do ~300 DPS on shroud portals fully boosted, and most of them won't bother boosting for shroud pt 1, so yeah it's pretty easy to out-dps them on a divine

[ShadowFlash]

Asked many times, but never answered if DP caps at level 20 or not, so these calculations assume Caster Level 20.
Best Gearing assumed is....
Superior Brilliance V Clickie
Superior Radiance Lore (Tier II Alchemical Crafting Mystical effect)
Maxed Enhancement Lines

All Total this should give the maximum 21% chance to critical @ 2.75 multiplier.

Base Damage is (not using loaded dice) 1d6+20 = 23.5

Tier I = 126 Normal Tic / 347 Crit Tic = 172/tic average over 100 tics
Tier II = 252 Normal Tic / 694 Crit Tic = 345/tic average
Tier III = 378 Normal Tic / 1042 Crit Tic = 518/tic average

Tier I = 10 sec/5 tics = 860
Tier II = 10 sec/5 tics = 1725
Tier III = 14 sec/7 tics = 3626

Total Damage in the first 34 seconds = 6211 / 34 = 182 DPS

As time progresses, DPS will very slooowwwlllyy creep up to Tier III DPS of 259. Due to Diminishing returns, length of time, and total damage dealt, this will never actually happen.

That's it boys and girls, A maxed Geared, max Specced level 20 divine adds approximately 220 DPS with Divine Punishment.

From here you can add whatever FvS light curse tier you'd like, but I do caution against exaggeration here as most see very temporary gains from this in most situations.

I do NOT know where eardweller fits into the calculations either as this is definitely one of the most desirable pieces of gear. Every caster I personally know is STILL farming for it Does it replace brilliance ? Is it additive in the gear/enhancement portion of the equation ? Is it it's own seperate multiplier I.E basex2.5x2.15x2.0 ?

Any questions ?

[gloopygloop]

base x 2.5 (feats) x 2.15 (enhancements&brilliance) is what I correctly used throughout.

Indeed. Just showing both of those calculations to show that the 75% was correct (and nto the 50% listed in the item description) and because the second (incorrect) calculation is the one that most people would expect to be correct - especially when it works out so close to the numbers that people find with their testing.

[Shade]

you know skilled FvS have solo'd tod, vod elite, epic DA and epic dq2 before DP

ToD, VoD, DA yea i've seen the posts from teth. Lots of mana pots....

Link the FvS epic DQ2 pre DP, that i have not seen, or well any other epic raid either for that matter.

DP breaks epic DQ2 plain and simple. The devs never intended anyone to solo it no matter how skilled or determined. Much less with 0 pots in a reasonable timeframe on their first try post u11.

[Shade]

Asked many times, but never answered if DP caps at level 20 or not, so these calculations assume Caster Level 20.

mm id test on my fvs, but have no way to increase it past 20.

Radiant servant cleric should test it.. probably does continue to scale.