Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[gloopygloop]

Considering this spell is a divine's main boss weapon, they still have 300 DPS to make up for before they surpass the 600DPS raging barbarian numbers thrown around.

Very few Barbarians actually have 600 DPS.

Just about every Cleric/FvS should get close to the DP numbers that you're calculating (or higher for FvS).

When I bring my FvS into a Shroud PUG, I run one portal ahead of the rest of the group and I DP that portal while I wait for the rest of the group to catch up. I usually have the portal down to at least 50% by the time the other 9-11 party members catch up (depending on how many Arcanes are killing trash). All I'm doing is swinging a +2 Holy Greatsword of Smiting and casting DP. And most of those groups have at least a few Fighters and Barbarians.

Obviously, I'm still getting my crit numbers and they're not getting any crit numbers in melee, but I'd say that it's unlikely that they're hitting 600 DPS if I can take a portal down to 50% in the time that it takes 8+ of them to kill one portal and then run to mine. And my FvS is really nothing special, so don't think of this as a brag on myself. It's just a note that the super-DPS that some few characters on each server have is not representative of the median DPS that you'll see among the capped characters wandering around each server.

[gloopygloop]

Wrong. Look it up next time before you make such a contraversial topic ...:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Angel_of_Vengeance_enhancements

Hell I was remembering it wrong too!. It's actually +80% more!

+30% base all the time passive. Fire, Physical or Untyped. Is DP Fire or Physical or Untyped?
+50% from condemnation procs (clerics can benefit from this too)

And what you heard about comdemnation is utterly illogicla. If you can maintain a single stack, you will maintain a 5x stack. Maintain anything between 1x and 5x is utterly unlikely. The enemies either attack fast enough to maintain 5x, or rarely get 1x, theres no in between on this.

You are correct in your understanding that long term fights will end up with either 1x or 5x because the procs will either happen often enough to maintain a full stack or they will not happen often enough to maintain a stack at all.

You are incorrect in your understanding that the procs happen often enough to maintain a full stack.

[weewoo0]

Wrong. Look it up next time before you make such a contraversial topic ...:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Angel_of_Vengeance_enhancements

Hell I was remembering it wrong too!. It's actually +80% more!

+30% base all the time passive.
+50% from condemnation procs (clerics can benefit from this too)

thank you for linking the post that disproves your attempt to disprove his point?
i honestly dont understand how you got the thought that the PrE boosts light spells.

[Shade]

you should play your fvs more before making these kind of delusional claims...

Exactly why does one need to play a favored soul to tell if there are 5x stacks?

Looking at the examination panel isn't restricted to a single class. Nor is who has the condemnation proc (crown) applied to them

It's actaully easier to tell when its happening on a barbarian, because you get purple numbers above your head on each proc, while favored souls generally are seeing purple numbers all over hte place, and not always up in the bosses face like the tanks are.

So perhaps you should get a better understanding of how comdemnation works before breaking the forum rules. My claims are 100% accurate.

If you arent maintaing the stacks against the bosses I mentioned, its either
A) Tank isn't crowned
B) Tank has too much AC - AC ruins everything
C) Favored soul who crowned the tank is out of range - VERY COMMON.. I see this almots every run and have to ask the fvs to get closer.

And yea, I was wrong about the AoV enhancements, didnt read them clearly - was pretty wasted when i wrote the reply.. Lotsa ppl mis understanding them tho so eh we're all learning.

Theres not much to learn here tho other then:

1. People love there favored souls enough to make completely illogical claims to defend there overpowered abilities.
2. DP is geting the nerf.
3. People will be upset, but it has to happen.

Personally I hate nerfs and im ALWAYS pro-buff dont nerf to fix game imbalances. But the only buff option in this case is unmanagable and unreasonable:
Give every strong boss monster in the game a lot of light resistance.. Too much work and ends up nerfing spells that dont deserve nerfs like searing light.

And the nerfs im suggesiton aren't that big.. Just that DP should be top DPS only for people who really work at making it top DPS - EG ones with good saves on it.
So give it a save. Tho i think it also needs to be capped at CL15 as it should not match the damage (actually it currently surpasses it due to the condemnation) of the arcane versions, as there are millions of monsters with ice/lightning resistance but zero (except lord of blades) with light resistance.

RE: Cratos.. No. He is a variation on a Iron golem, iron golems hae MAGIC IMMUNITY. It's different. In u9 they nerfed magic immunity to instead block 50% of all spell damage. He has no light resistance.

[gloopygloop]

My claims are 100% accurate.
[snip]
And yea, I was wrong about the AoV enhancements, didnt read them clearly - was pretty wasted when i wrote the reply..

Win.

[Shade]

i honestly dont understand how you got the thought that the PrE boosts light spells.

It boosts nearly every other spell they cast, so it's not hard to glaze over the dmg types and miss it.

Not hard to understand either:
I'm human, not an advanced military android, Alcohol does affect my reading comprehension.

[Crann]

It boosts nearly every other spell they cast, so it's not hard to glaze over the dmg types and miss it.

Not hard to understand either:
I'm human, not an advanced military android, Alcohol does affect my reading comprehension.

Alcohol leads me to believe I'm an advanced military android at times, but that's another story

I missed the fact that the pre didn't affect light damage for awhile at first, and I play mine often.

Although I am seeing the condemnation shield proccing alot more often than others here it seems, never see a consistant 5 stack tho.

[Bodic]

I can say I have dropped the shield on a Paladin sat back and watched DP tick mad Purple. Not to mention the light proc from condemnation on the Paladin.

[Lavek]

Exactly why does one need to play a favored soul to tell if there are 5x stacks?

Looking at the examination panel isn't restricted to a single class. Nor is who has the condemnation proc (crown) applied to them

It's actaully easier to tell when its happening on a barbarian, because you get purple numbers above your head on each proc, while favored souls generally are seeing purple numbers all over hte place, and not always up in the bosses face like the tanks are.

So perhaps you should get a better understanding of how comdemnation works before breaking the forum rules. My claims are 100% accurate.

if you get all jacked up and offended by word that is just a mere adjective about your pumped up statements maybe you should spend less times on forum whining about how fvs are overpowered in everyway

most of the time Im on my fvs, most of the time near the main tank or tanking and most of the time I dont see it proc up to V and maintain that lvl...it really isnt reliable to say it can be maintained at lvl V

keep the buffs/debuffs window of monster open and see how long does the fvs debuff really stick to V and stay there...better yet...make a video through every of those raids you mentioned and keep the status window up...

Tho i think it also needs to be capped at CL15 as it should not match the damage (actually it currently surpasses it due to the condemnation) of the arcane versions, as there are millions of monsters with ice/lightning resistance but zero (except lord of blades) with light resistance.

yeah...cap every useful divine dmg spell at lvl 15 so they really can only be limited to buffbots/hjealbots -.-'

there are monsters with ice/lit resistances and there are also monster vulnerable to those type of dmg or can get vulnerable with sorc debuffs, allot more then there are to light...

divines have 3 useful offensive spells and ppl are crying how the hell one average geared divine can do almost the same damage as their average melee or atleast somewhat decent...not taking into account again that melee can melee all day and casters have sp(divines also have to spend sp on heals so they cant go all out nukes most of the time)...not to mention lack of good items that buff up divine spells, elemental lores can be found almost everywhere

ok with doing something about difference between DoT casted with 0 stat mod and 15 stat mod...

not ok with limiting again divines in their arsenal...better yet...they should get more offensive high level spells...searing light is not something that was meant for end game nukes...

[krogyy]

not taking into account again that melee can melee all day and casters have sp(divines also have to spend sp on heals so they cant go all out nukes most of the time)..

you can recharge sp with torc/pots, on the other hand boosts/rages/surges do not recharge and without them melee dps goes down a lot.

[Lavek]

you can recharge sp with torc/pots, on the other hand boosts/rages/surges do not recharge and without them melee dps goes down a lot.

oh yeah:

"hey guys...can you just like, stop fighting the big bad boss while I go on these archers over there and get my sp back, try not to die ok, oh and big bad boss, pls stop attacking them for a while, kthnxbb"

pots on the other hand...ok...but not everyone can afford chugging pots all the time...resources tend to dry out after some time

[Bodic]

oh yeah:

"hey guys...can you just like, stop fighting the big bad boss while I go on these archers over there and get my sp back, try not to die ok, oh and big bad boss, pls stop attacking them for a while, kthnxbb"

pots on the other hand...ok...but not everyone can afford chugging pots all the time...resources tend to dry out after some time

on DQ that is easy and you have to go no place at all.

[krogyy]

oh yeah:

"hey guys...can you just like, stop fighting the big bad boss while I go on these archers over there and get my sp back, try not to die ok, oh and big bad boss, pls stop attacking them for a while, kthnxbb"

i seem to recall from one of the epic lob threads that it can indeed be done. i'll search for the post...

regardless, even if you assume you can't get sp back what about the fact that melee can not keep their dps either? a rageless barbarian will have problems even hitting an epic boss for example.

[voodoogroves]

Exactly why does one need to play a favored soul to tell if there are 5x stacks?

Looking at the examination panel isn't restricted to a single class. Nor is who has the condemnation proc (crown) applied to them

It's actaully easier to tell when its happening on a barbarian, because you get purple numbers above your head on each proc, while favored souls generally are seeing purple numbers all over hte place, and not always up in the bosses face like the tanks are.

So perhaps you should get a better understanding of how comdemnation works before breaking the forum rules. My claims are 100% accurate.

If you arent maintaing the stacks against the bosses I mentioned, its either
A) Tank isn't crowned
B) Tank has too much AC - AC ruins everything
C) Favored soul who crowned the tank is out of range - VERY COMMON.. I see this almots every run and have to ask the fvs to get closer.

And yea, I was wrong about the AoV enhancements, didnt read them clearly - was pretty wasted when i wrote the reply.. Lotsa ppl mis understanding them tho so eh we're all learning.

Theres not much to learn here tho other then:

1. People love there favored souls enough to make completely illogical claims to defend there overpowered abilities.
2. DP is geting the nerf.
3. People will be upset, but it has to happen.

Personally I hate nerfs and im ALWAYS pro-buff dont nerf to fix game imbalances. But the only buff option in this case is unmanagable and unreasonable:
Give every strong boss monster in the game a lot of light resistance.. Too much work and ends up nerfing spells that dont deserve nerfs like searing light.

And the nerfs im suggesiton aren't that big.. Just that DP should be top DPS only for people who really work at making it top DPS - EG ones with good saves on it.
So give it a save. Tho i think it also needs to be capped at CL15 as it should not match the damage (actually it currently surpasses it due to the condemnation) of the arcane versions, as there are millions of monsters with ice/lightning resistance but zero (except lord of blades) with light resistance.

RE: Cratos.. No. He is a variation on a Iron golem, iron golems hae MAGIC IMMUNITY. It's different. In u9 they nerfed magic immunity to instead block 50% of all spell damage. He has no light resistance.

Shade ... love you man ... Crateos is not 50% resistant - he's immune. So is the Puppy Mom.

You only get heat for this because when you get on your soap box you make claims in capital letters "and the ONLY one immune is ..." ... and then folks are contesting the specific areas in which you're wrong and not the general theme.

Generally speaking very very few worthwhile targets are immune. That should be your point - just back away from the "ONLY" claims and don't let the conversation get sidetracked.


On the crown, it can stack if you're using a non-AC tank. Truth is though, that's not really common. In practical terms, it doesn't stack that much. My problem with DP though is actually that stacking as it is a force multiplier. In general use DP isn't broken, but when you get people who can align the environment (say a non-AC, DR-based FVS tanking) the top end scales too high.

Nerfing it for the folks in the other 90% of the game is like rebalancing all mobs to make Ayspam have a hard time with DCs ... that's the danger.

[PNellesen]

And with all that......

divines are in short supply.

Go figure.

The reasons for that have nothing whatsoever to do with the rather nice offensive capabilities divines actually have.

(Although now that I think about it, maybe that IS why they are in short supply for most LFMs that say "need heals"...)

[Matuse]

Generally speaking very very few worthwhile targets are immune.

And generally speaking, very very few monsters are worthwhile targets.

If the spell gets jacked against them...what good is it at all? Just what we need is a new version of undeath to death. U9 at least fixed that spell to be worthwhile.

[justagame]

This is getting old. Really old. Especially all of the "it HAS to happen" garbage. I'm tired of peopls stating the maximum possible crit dps under ideal conditions, enhancements, etc. then completely ignoring the sp and time cost to get to that point. The comparison to barb dps is downright silly, because the barb has that from the very first moment of combat. A FVS has to build to that slowly, and it's a significant sp cost to get there.

But nah, let's just trash it and go back to divines having nothing to do on bosses but heal and quaff potions. Yeah, that would be better.

[pHo3nix]

The real problem is that DP is the ONLY efficient spell divines can cast in boss fights: add more spells that are worth using (even with a save so high DC casters would be better at using them).

Removing DP or nerfing it to be useless without adding valid options to do something more than nannybotting in boss fights would be really sad.

[Shuleagh]

I'm tired of peopls stating the maximum possible crit dps under ideal conditions, enhancements, etc. then completely ignoring the sp and time cost to get to that point. The comparison to barb dps is downright silly, because the barb has that from the very first moment of combat.

People who post calcs for melee dps are using ideal conditions, stationary targets, builds for maximum damage with little to no self sufficiency and epic gear. Why should casters be any different? What makes the comparison to barb dps even sillier is that a FvS can do all of that damage with no real sacrifices to healing ability or buffs.

[GermanicusMaximus]

divines are in short supply.

Divines ARE in short supply, especially to melees who think they are the be all, end all of this game.

Simply put, casters are the high skill toons in this game. Its only logical that they are also the most powerful. If you insist on playing a toon from a class that is so simplistic that it can be played with one hand, while doing who knows what with the other hand, you should expect that you will likely be a gimp.