Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[Cartheron]

250 DPS for you just standing there pressing 1 button every 13-14 seconds is extreme high. And sp cost after stacking this 3 times is very low - from your own calculations (40460dmg at 156sec) 1 cast is about 3500dmg on average, it is much more sp effcient than any other damage spell in game (with possible exceptions of fw and ice storm, but they are not stacking from different casters, provide much lower dps on bosses and suffer much more from resists/immunities). Even with Sirgog's estimations of 2800 damage/cast with only basic gear it is incredibly efficient. And this is for cleric, not for FVS, who has 30% damage more from PrE.

About healing reducing non-DP dps - that is right, but you can take WF FVS to your raid as dps, not a healer and according to my example, he should be as good dpser as similary geared barb. And to make things funnier, with lower-end gear fvs will be better than pure melee, because gear impacts melee dps much more than DP and archon dps.

[ShadowFlash]

250 DPS for you just standing there pressing 1 button every 13-14 seconds is extreme high. And sp cost after stacking this 3 times is very low - from your own calculations (40460dmg at 156sec) 1 cast is about 3500dmg on average, it is much more sp effcient than any other damage spell in game (with possible exceptions of fw and ice storm, but they are not stacking from different casters, provide much lower dps on bosses and suffer much more from resists/immunities). Even with Sirgog's estimations of 2800 damage/cast with only basic gear it is incredibly efficient. And this is for cleric, not for FVS, who has 30% damage more from PrE.

About healing reducing non-DP dps - that is right, but you can take WF FVS to your raid as dps, not a healer and according to my example, he should be as good dpser as similary geared barb. And to make things funnier, with lower-end gear fvs will be better than pure melee, because gear impacts melee dps much more than DP and archon dps.

FvS PrE does NOT provide the additional 30% to light-based spells (why does everyone think this?)...only the shield of condemnation de-buff provides any benefits...and that is questionable as to how much is actually sustainable (I'm going with 20% average sustainable until I hear different). I'm not disputing its efficiency or it's convenience in "not doing anything" in between stacks. All I'm attempting to do is put a reasonable DPS number on DP that everyone agrees upon. From there all the flaming, trolling, and nerfing can proceed with at least some basis in real-world math.

Again, before I begin my maximum,epic geared, no holds barred, super-uber AVERAGE DPS over time calculations, is there any aspect I am missing to the math? I think I already have average level 20 math down as 210-250 DPS.

As far as gearing and DP goes, you'll notice I included Superior Radiance Lore in my calculations which is not currently available on live. Close to this value can be achieved through ToD sets and Arcane Lore presently, but I included alchemical weapons because they will soon be achievable. In other words, with low-end gear, a divines DP DPS will drop as well. The Crits make a huge difference in the total average. I can do any math you'd like with whatever you consider low-end gear. Personally I'd think elf-crafted robes and no ToD set would fit the bill for arcane lore and crit boosting on low-end level 20 gearing with of course sup brilliance V clickies.

16% @ 2.5 maximum

DPS = 190 DPS over the 1st 34 seconds.... incrementally increasing from there

And from what I've read, any Divine who cannot heal is ostracized anyhow, so whether you decide to take them as a DPS spot or not, they still "should" have specced themselves to heal regardless.

Edit: it should be 15% chance to crit, but it's late and I'm not re-doing the math tonight...It will actually be lower than listed.

[Cartheron]

FvS PrE does NOT provide the additional 30% to light-based spells (why does everyone think this?)...

You are of course right, I always tend to make this mistake, and I dont know why too

[Aurora1979]

nice calcs OP ty.

Personally I think they should leave DP as it is.... and infact try to think of something else to give divines to make them more appealing. Not nessecerly another powerful thing but.... something.

People need healers atm, the healing class is a thankless difficult and responsible role that is made harder by the devs, like the UI, and harder by the players, like running behind pillars. and yet is the one class/ role that i see get blamed most common by wipes....

Give us more reason to play healers.... take away the DP as it is and you will lose even more....

[wolflordnexus]

nice calcs OP ty.

Personally I think they should leave DP as it is.... and infact try to think of something else to give divines to make them more appealing. Not nessecerly another powerful thing but.... something.

People need healers atm, the healing class is a thankless difficult and responsible role that is made harder by the devs, like the UI, and harder by the players, like running behind pillars. and yet is the one class/ role that i see get blamed most common by wipes....

Give us more reason to play healers.... take away the DP as it is and you will lose even more....

The reason healing capable toons are always in high demand isn't that few are being played it's that few are joining groups outside of statics and guildies of course. there was never much reason to before the spell pass and mob changes and there's even less now. I get it babysitting isn't really fun and the harder raids just became pot fest's unless your running them with folks you can trust. But were already to the point where no matter what you bring you'd be better off just bringing another divine or arcane and people still think they need more love. I just find it utterly amazing.

[Rodasch]

I also find it strange that DP is being to heavily singled out. Why not the Electric version? It works on basically the same category of monsters. Why do people use lightning II weapons? Because they hit damned near everything. A few demons are immune (Lailat), the stormreaver (a joke), flesh golems (very rare, and none worth casting a DoT on anyway)...and not much else.

No, not "a few demons"...all demons and all eladrin are 100% immune to electricity. It's part of the creature type template.

Certainly there are other creatures with immunity as you mentioned, stormreaver and most real storm giants, as well as blue dragons. Flesh golems are healed directly by electricity, and iron golems are slowed by it.

There are a few other specific monsters that electricity doesn't work on, avatar of juiblex and gate warden in tor for example, but the general list above covers the vast majority of content.

I'd bet you the list of monsters immune to electricity is much larger than the list of monsters immune to DP, if you sat down and wrote out every one of them in every quest.

[Kmnh]

The raging barbarians are not upset at your high DPS,they don't want you to do any DPS at all

[Tinco]

It's ~50% damage of a well geared melee against 0% fort.
It's ~65% damage of a well geared melee against 50% fort.
It's ~80% damage of a well geared melee against 100% fort.

For almost no maintenance and without relying on outside buffs.

I like DP but I don't like how the game applies double standards when it comes to boss defenses which was even more pronounced by the fort scaling on hard/elite/epic.

[Matuse]

No, not "a few demons"...all demons and all eladrin are 100% immune to electricity. It's part of the creature type template.

Sorry, I meant a few demons that you would actually bother casting it on. This is something that seems to get consistently lost in all of these "ZOMG NERF THE DOTZ!" threads...there are very, very few monsters in the game where you can justify using these spells at all. Basically, anything that isn't red or purple named, and isn't death warded is a non-contender for a DoT application. The DoTs are horribly SP inefficient, and very slow. This severely limits which targets they are useful for. About the only trash monster I'd ever seriously consider using DP on would be a vampire, just because of their regen and teleporting silliness, plus they are light vulnerable.

I can't think of any time I would ever use DP or Elidar's (sp) on some random flesh render or fire reaver. Yes, technically they are immune (to the electricity)...it also doesn't matter for the purposes of these spells. This is far more of a melee consideration.

I'd bet you the list of monsters immune to electricity is much larger than the list of monsters immune to DP, if you sat down and wrote out every one of them in every quest.

Yes, it is a larger list of lightning immunes. But again: SO WHAT? You don't ever use the spell on them in the first place. Blue Dragons...plural. Like there's one hiding outside of the Tor that nobody else is familiar with? DoTs are highly inadvisable on Tor dragons, since it can kill them out of synch with the giant and force you to do it all over again.

250 DPS for you just standing there pressing 1 button every 13-14 seconds is extreme high.

Any reason that standing there with auto-attack turned on (and therefore pressing no buttons) should be higher?

[Malky]

Effective CL=22

I haven't seen hard numbers about it, but it's not sure that you can go beyond CL 20 on the stackables DoTs

base=1d6=turbine loaded dice=1d3+3+22 x3 (triple stacked)=81 average damage

Loaded dices are only used for instant damage spells (i.e. nukes) not DoTs afaik

B) It's UTTERLY unresistable. The ONLY monster in the game that has light resistance is Epic LoB. (please stop brining up monsters with MAGIC IMMUNITY.. The fact it even hits them is wrong.)

Krateos in the snitch has light resistance as well, not that it's really important but well

C) It's 100% reliable and 100% insanely easy to achieve near-max DPS on, while achieving near-max DPS on a melee is incredibly difficult and requires such a huge group and flawless list of things that is astounding, improbable, and realisticly just plain impossible.

Let's say 99%, bosses that knock you down or things like wraith bosses that disappear from time to time can break your stack, reducing the overall efficiency

DPS challenge shows REAL bbn DPS vs a 0AC, 100% fort target taht doesnt move. It definetely isn't 600dps, go look it up. The 0% fort mob isn't even 600 for the freakin 100% maxxed out completionists.

Some could argue that DPS challenge doesn't show raid buffed dps, but anyway melee dps on high fort target << stackable DoTs dps indeed.

[Memek]

Any reason that standing there with auto-attack turned on (and therefore pressing no buttons) should be higher?

Because while your (auto) attacking, you cant do anything else.
Because you have to be in melee range.
Because melees dont have dozens and dozens of other "spells" to choose from - auto attack is basically all they have for DPS.
Because melees cant instantly refill their health bar about 50 times per quest without using any resources, or anyone else's in the party.
Because they dont have BB to slaughter any number of monsters chasing them.

[Cartheron]

Any reason that standing there with auto-attack turned on (and therefore pressing no buttons) should be higher?

For the simple reason than with auto attack you cant do anything else during those 13-14 seconds. In case of dots you can move, cast other spells, autoattack, whatever.

Dont get me wrong, I love those spells, I am perfectly aware of their only situational usefulness (basicaly, red and purple names only). Problem is that in those situations where they are useful, they are painfully OPed. And I dont see a way to make them balanced to be honest.

[Lavek]

For the simple reason than with auto attack you cant do anything else during those 13-14 seconds.

you can go grab a sandwich, bio, alt tab and do other stuff etc etc


people are not taking into account situations in a raid where whole party gets AoEd and you gotta cast mass heal just about the dot should be cast, raising someone fast, droping second heal on someone etc. thus losing whole stack and going over again

max crit on my poorly geared no archmage set fvs is well over 2k..

this is with taking condemination iV-V into account which is very very rare to see and then to see a crit in those 10-15 seconds of its duration...even rarer






only problem with dots is dumped casting stat builds can do the same dmg as others that dont...only this...

[GotSomeQuestions]

There are a few other specific monsters that electricity doesn't work on, avatar of juiblex and gate warden in tor for example, but the general list above covers the vast majority of content.

I'd add Liches and Doomspheres to your list, especially since they are also immune to Niac's Biting Cold. While Cholthulzz is not a critical opponent, you do face him in some relevant quests (same with Raiyum, lich Sor'Jek, etc). But mostly, the Black Abbot is the key boss here with 100% arcane stacking-DoT immunity. At least we have Black Dragon Bolt now, before it was just Disintegrate/DBF/Meteors.

[stockwizard5]

I think what most people see is how fast stuff dies with DP.

The difference is really what used to be melees + arcanes is now melees + arcanes + divines (more consistently) and so big stuff croaks faster. This gives the "impression" that DP "killed" something when we are really seeing the additive difference!

[Shade]

Favored souls do not get 70%....they get at most 50%, and from what I've heard, only 20% due to shield proc dependably. Not to mention, when you speak of DP, you MUST include the "lowly" cleric as well, not just the precious FvS's.

Wrong. Look it up next time before you make such a contraversial topic ...:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Angel_of_Vengeance_enhancements

Hell I was remembering it wrong too!. It's actually +80% more!

+30% base all the time passive.
+50% from condemnation procs (clerics can benefit from this too)

And what you heard about comdemnation is utterly illogicla. If you can maintain a single stack, you will maintain a 5x stack. Maintain anything between 1x and 5x is utterly unlikely. The enemies either attack fast enough to maintain 5x, or rarely get 1x, theres no in between on this.

Yea it's situational (the +50%), but it works awesome in the most dangerous situations against the most devastating raid bosses - ones that you really want to DP, and ones that melee FAST and hard enough to be worth nuking.
Horoth, Lailat, Suulomades, Lord of Blades, Sorjek - all of these are easy enough to maintain a 5x stack on, with a single fvs in the grp.
For slower attackers like velah, or more random ones like arraetrikos, you can maintain it also, but generally you want 2 fvs to be very reliable. Another reasons FvS are so overpowered, they stack oh so well, more is always better.

And it was insane when it was +100% pre u11.. Still crazy overpowered tho as its much easier to maintain the stack now thanks to the longer duration.

[MyHumps]

Because while your (auto) attacking, you cant do anything else.
Because you have to be in melee range.
Because melees dont have dozens and dozens of other "spells" to choose from - auto attack is basically all they have for DPS.
Because melees cant instantly refill their health bar about 50 times per quest without using any resources, or anyone else's in the party.
Because they dont have BB to slaughter any number of monsters chasing them.

Yeah, someone with a pointy metal stick should be more powerful than a god.

[Matuse]

+30% base all the time passive.

What "all the time passive" is that? The Smiting line? The PrE gives NO BONUSES to Divine Punishment if the target isn't light cursed. None. Zero bonuses. No bonus of any kind.

And what you heard about comdemnation is utterly illogicla. If you can maintain a single stack, you will maintain a 5x stack.

What you've apparently heard about condemnation holds no bearing to reality. Nobody "maintains" a single stack. A single stack pops up once in a while. The proc rate is low to the point of being totally unreliable. I see monsters going extensive periods of time with no stack, and then they'll be at 2 for a little bit, and then it will go away and be down to zero. Going above 2 is EXTREMELY rare.

Horoth, Lailat, Suulomades, Lord of Blades, Sorjek - all of these are easy enough to maintain a 5x stack on, with a single fvs in the grp.

And now it sounds like you're talking about the condemnation proc from the Crown, not from hitting the actual FvS. You're out of your mind.

I've gone entire fights in ToD where Horoth was never cursed ONCE despite keeping the Crown up on the tank the entire time. And yes, I'd have noticed. I keep the shoulder archon running all the time, and its damage turns purple when condemnation procs happen, so it's super easy to see when they don't. The proc rate from a Crowned person is appallingly bad. It's far more useful for the retributive damage shield it gives than any real hope that the remote-condemn proc will ever happen.

Out of all of the monsters you list, Lailat is the only one who will reliably curse herself, since she swings 6 times per attack, and each swing has a separate chance of activating the condemnation.

[Lavek]

Horoth, Lailat, Suulomades, Lord of Blades, Sorjek - all of these are easy enough to maintain a 5x stack on, with a single fvs in the grp.

you should play your fvs more before making these kind of delusional claims...

[MyHumps]

If anything I think that DP is underpowered lol. The reason it's "over powered" to people is because finally it's easy for divines to solo the game. You know... like it has been for arcanes for years. lol