Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[ShadowFlash]

mm id test on my fvs, but have no way to increase it past 20.

Radiant servant cleric should test it.. probably does continue to scale.

That's what I assumed too, but many have expressed concerns that it doesn't. 3-piece Abashi Set or RSII would do for a test.

[Habreno]

DP does not cap at 20. My RS II Cleric enjoys his bonus caster levels.

[ShadowFlash]

DP does not cap at 20. My RS II Cleric enjoys his bonus caster levels.

You're killing me here man....very sadistic of you to make me have to redo everything again

Any idea on where eardweller fits in ? I'm guessing the formula would be...

base x [1+1(maximize)+.5(empower)] x [1+.75(brilliance)+.4(enhancements)+1(eardweller)]

or simplified...

base x 2.5 x 3.15

I'm NOT putting my math helmet back on until I know for sure

Next round of calculations will include Cleric RSII with 3-piece Abashi Set for a CL of 25, AND eardweller, for a true epic geared max ****** DPS number.

Edit: according to the Eardweller description it does not stack with any other item or potion. Is this correct ? If so the formula would be...

base x [1+1(maximize)+.5(empower)] x [1+.4(enhancements)+1(eardweller)]

or simplified...

base x 2.5 x 2.4

Which way is it ?

[Habreno]

Eardweller does not stack with Superior Brilliance V clickies. Save you the math.

However, I am uncertain as to how the Abishai set factors in with the bonus caster levels.

[Barashkukor]

Last time I checked, my eardweller replaced other item effects. Unless that changed in U11 *shrug*

Nice OP, btw.

[ShadowFlash]

Eardweller does not stack with Superior Brilliance V clickies. Save you the math.

However, I am uncertain as to how the Abishai set factors in with the bonus caster levels.

Ha! I knew you'd chime in, so this time I waited

So the correct formula will be...

base x [1+1(maximize)+.5(empower)] x [1+.4(enhancements)+1(eardweller)]

or simplified...

base x 2.5 x 2.4

Thank You!
I am in the process of calculating all the different builds, including the most common cleric splashed builds all the way down to level 12 RSII cleric. I plan on heavily modifying the first 2 posts with all the new math. This will take me a day or so, but then everyone will have a point of reference for individual builds. This will be a "strive for" breakdown including only the best possible gear so that it will be easy to reference what any build can achieve. I will probably include a reference non-uber geared comparison for those freshly reaching level 20 also. From here, any other threads concerning DP will have a definitive link to interpret as they will....that's my goal at least

If anyone has any other advise before I finalize my findings, I would greatly appreciate it.

ShadowFlash

[DnD3]

Are you guys kidding me? Sorc with its 3 ticks (counting BDB) is way worse than DP on cleric, and while I do not have a FvS I also no way in hell see it proc for 50% constantly on horroth with even 2 FvS on the group. To me thats as realistic as putting a ESoS toon that gets on a luck streak and gets crits 75% of the time every time.


And no, casters should not be overpowered because they take more "skill", casters are not hard to play, only a bit more complicated and to be fair if a lot of these melee abilities where not so useless, melees wouldnt be a more complicated role, this game for all the talk about skills is really more gear and build depenedent than anything, have both and its hard not to succed on almost all epics.

[ShadowFlash]

Are you guys kidding me? Sorc with its 3 ticks (counting BDB) is way worse than DP on cleric, and while I do not have a FvS I also no way in hell see it proc for 50% constantly on horroth with even 2 FvS on the group. To me thats as realistic as putting a ESoS toon that gets on a luck streak and gets crits 75% of the time every time.


And no, casters should not be overpowered because they take more "skill", casters are not hard to play, only a bit more complicated and to be fair if a lot of these melee abilities where not so useless, melees wouldnt be a more complicated role, this game for all the talk about skills is really more gear and build depenedent than anything, have both and its hard not to succed on almost all epics.

I play Divines not Arcanes, but I would encourage someone more knowledgeable on the Sorcerer PrE and apllicable gearing to do similar calculations. I'm guessing the accepted forum numbers are also greatly exaggerated due to everyone wanting to see the maximum possible value, and not the true average DPS. My bias may be showing, but I'm guessing the sorcerer savant easily surpasses my divine numbers regardless. Just the basic ability to obtain a much higher caster level than the equivalent divine would support this hypothesis. This however is as it should be, as arcanes do not have a melee mode to fall back on, nor do they heal regularly....although they have much better crowd control to fall back upon in non-boss situations, not to mention an actual diverse spell-based offensive repetoire.

Simply put, the comparisons are outside the scope of this thread

[ToKu]

I don't think the problem is with the spell or that divines have a reliable DPS.. its human nature.

Fights are being drawn out and punish melee's much more now. A dead DPS or a DPS who dies and is rezzed becomes a liability and a drain. I will gladly take more divines then required on a raid because they are harder to kill, can provide a consistant DPS that is near unresistable and does not prevent them from doing thier primary role AND it eases the burden on the divines to heal.

I can take 4-5 divines, set up a easy to maintain healing rotation and know that I will STILL have a consistant 4-5 worth of steady DPS. Heck the divine can die, be rezzed and still provide near the same DPS.

I mentioned in another thread, change the dot to 2 stacks cap... I would not like to see its single cast weakened as its nice to finish off single target trash... but 3 stacks is currently too good and easy to maintain / easy to attain near optimal DPS with gear/buff wise.

The OP'ness is not the spell but the fact that with this spell it almost becomes better to bring that extra divine then another class. Thats one step away from pigeonholing classes in raids. Anyone remember when it was pointless to bring more then 1 arcane to a shroud raid?

[ShadowFlash]

I don't think the problem is with the spell or that divines have a reliable DPS.. its human nature.

Fights are being drawn out and punish melee's much more now. A dead DPS or a DPS who dies and is rezzed becomes a liability and a drain. I will gladly take more divines then required on a raid because they are harder to kill, can provide a consistant DPS that is near unresistable and does not prevent them from doing thier primary role AND it eases the burden on the divines to heal.

I can take 4-5 divines, set up a easy to maintain healing rotation and know that I will STILL have a consistant 4-5 worth of steady DPS. Heck the divine can die, be rezzed and still provide near the same DPS.

I mentioned in another thread, change the dot to 2 stacks cap... I would not like to see its single cast weakened as its nice to finish off single target trash... but 3 stacks is currently too good and easy to maintain / easy to attain near optimal DPS with gear/buff wise.

The OP'ness is not the spell but the fact that with this spell it almost becomes better to bring that extra divine then another class. Thats one step away from pigeonholing classes in raids. Anyone remember when it was pointless to bring more then 1 arcane to a shroud raid?

Again, as a reminder, this thread is solely about the math, only the math, and nothing but the math. Please refrain from any discussion on how to, or even if to, modify DP. This thread is meant as a reference tool only for both build construction/planning and as a benchmark DPS figure which can be represented in any other thread however that OP deems fit.

[ToKu]

Again, as a reminder, this thread is solely about the math, only the math, and nothing but the math. Please refrain from any discussion on how to, or even if to, modify DP. This thread is meant as a reference tool only for both build construction/planning and as a benchmark DPS figure which can be represented in any other thread however that OP deems fit.

The math itself is pointless by itself, and per the title its about over-estimating DP... the problem has little to do with the numbers (which are pretty good for the effort/commitment required for them) and more to do with the issues revolving around DP such as raid mentality / practicality / etc.

The trend this spell and its use will allow to form is dangerous and unless this spell did abyssmal damage or they somehow made it not extremely SP efficient / easy to use without sacrificing anything...

Again even if the DPS of this spell was the least of every class, its still 100% upkeep and does not require me to keep constant attention on the boss or force me to be in a situation where I have to be in danger in order to maintain it. How many other DPS can say that?

Considering in the fact that you use a perfect barb in a perfect DPS situation as a comparison shows me you are trying to downplay it.

[pHo3nix]

you know skilled FvS have solo'd tod, vod elite, epic DA and epic dq2 before DP

You know using sp pots is a big easy button? Or do you think that infinite sp without any risk involved (except for your wallet ) makes things harder?

I clearly stated that DP is the only EFFICIENT spell to use, not that's impossible to do things without it: you could kill horoth with comet fall, but i'm failing to see how it would be efficient from a sp/time perspective.

[pHo3nix]

ToD, VoD, DA yea i've seen the posts from teth. Lots of mana pots....

Link the FvS epic DQ2 pre DP, that i have not seen, or well any other epic raid either for that matter.

DP breaks epic DQ2 plain and simple. The devs never intended anyone to solo it no matter how skilled or determined. Much less with 0 pots in a reasonable timeframe on their first try post u11.

[sarcasm]

You're right,it is not reasonable that someone can solo them without using sp pots.
They are doing their best to make DDO a real pay2win game and someone dares to complete things without paying for pots

[/sarcasm]

[EatSmart]

Testing with a lvl 20 rad II cleric, no smiting line and taking off potency gear damage values were a spread of 21-26 per tick for single stacks of DP. Tested over 20 mobs in vale of twilight.

-> Spell is either capped at max caster level 20, or the RS II enhancement is lying when it says its adding to caster level (appears in combat log as casting at level 22).
-> DP uses a D6, not a loaded D6.

You can theoretically get a RS' evocation (light) caster level to 26 with 3 abishai, RS II and chaos robes. (chaos robes being one of the easier ones to find) But if the cap is indeed 20, it would be pointless.

Edit Correction: changed 27 to 26, as chaos robes are lesser augmentation and only 1 extra cl.

[Mubjon]

Testing with a lvl 20 rad II cleric, no smiting line and taking off potency gear damage values were a spread of 21-26 per tick for single stacks of DP. Tested over 20 mobs in vale of twilight.

-> Spell is either capped at max caster level 20, or the RS II enhancement is lying when it says its adding to caster level (appears in combat log as casting at level 22).
-> DP uses a D6, not a loaded D6.

You can theoretically get a RS' evocation (light) caster level to 27 with 3 abishai, RS II and chaos robes. (chaos robes being one of the easier ones to find) But if the cap is indeed 20, it would be pointless.

My level 20 RSII cleric (pure) with full smiting line and crit line, Superior Potency VI, no abishi set though or anything else that increases caster level.

Over 30 shroud runs ( love my greensteel )

Single stack ranged from 99 to 129
double stack (bosses and portals in shroud) 200 to 303
triple stack (bosses only and shroud portals) 300 to 751 (the 600+ was with a FvS in the party and the damage was purple.

Without the Superior potency VI

Done over 10 shroud runs (did not have fun doing this, but wanted to see how much superior potency VI helped damage)

single stack 69 to 99
double stack 130 to 237
triple stack 250 to 350 (did not have a FvS in these runs)

I could have tested this more thoroughly in Amarath, but I decided to TR to a wizard as I wanted something a bit different for a time being. The numbers above though in the half a dozen to dozen times I ran slayer and rares out there fit into the same damage as I saw in the shroud regardless if it was normal, hard or elite.

[ShadowFlash]

Testing with a lvl 20 rad II cleric, no smiting line and taking off potency gear damage values were a spread of 21-26 per tick for single stacks of DP. Tested over 20 mobs in vale of twilight.

-> Spell is either capped at max caster level 20, or the RS II enhancement is lying when it says its adding to caster level (appears in combat log as casting at level 22).
-> DP uses a D6, not a loaded D6.

You can theoretically get a RS' evocation (light) caster level to 27 with 3 abishai, RS II and chaos robes. (chaos robes being one of the easier ones to find) But if the cap is indeed 20, it would be pointless.

Re: level 20 Cap, I've heard this as well, and that's pretty definitive testing. I'm guessing it should be applying the extra caster levels and DP is not capped at 20. Thank you for the test.

Re: Chaos Robes, Totally forgot about those and I actually have 'em in my inventory. I thought it was lesser evocation however, adding +1 to the CL, for a possible maximum of CL26 if it stacks with abashi (which it should)

Re: Loaded Dice, thank you again for the confirmation. Post #2 is calculated with standard d6, but until I have all the little nuances such as CL worked out, I'm holding back redo-ing post #1

My level 20 RSII cleric (pure) with full smiting line and crit line, Superior Potency VI, no abishi set though or anything else that increases caster level.

Over 30 shroud runs ( love my greensteel )

Single stack ranged from 99 to 129
double stack (bosses and portals in shroud) 200 to 303
triple stack (bosses only and shroud portals) 300 to 751 (the 600+ was with a FvS in the party and the damage was purple.

Without the Superior potency VI

Done over 10 shroud runs (did not have fun doing this, but wanted to see how much superior potency VI helped damage)

single stack 69 to 99
double stack 130 to 237
triple stack 250 to 350 (did not have a FvS in these runs)

I could have tested this more thoroughly in Amarath, but I decided to TR to a wizard as I wanted something a bit different for a time being. The numbers above though in the half a dozen to dozen times I ran slayer and rares out there fit into the same damage as I saw in the shroud regardless if it was normal, hard or elite.

Your Numbers fall well within my expected Average but also show the +2 from RSII not applying. Thank You for the testing.

The math itself is pointless by itself, and per the title its about over-estimating DP... the problem has little to do with the numbers (which are pretty good for the effort/commitment required for them) and more to do with the issues revolving around DP such as raid mentality / practicality / etc.

The trend this spell and its use will allow to form is dangerous and unless this spell did abyssmal damage or they somehow made it not extremely SP efficient / easy to use without sacrificing anything...

Again even if the DPS of this spell was the least of every class, its still 100% upkeep and does not require me to keep constant attention on the boss or force me to be in a situation where I have to be in danger in order to maintain it. How many other DPS can say that?

Considering in the fact that you use a perfect barb in a perfect DPS situation as a comparison shows me you are trying to downplay it.

The thread title of overestimating is referring to those claiming DP does way more damage than it does by quoting ridiculously high critical numbers as common place. I am not disputing any other aspect, including efficiency or convenience. You are correct in that I should have not compared it to the also grossly exaggerated barbarian 600 DPS in the interest of thread purity, and for that I apologize. I am human too after all, and sometimes my personal opinions will show through. I just don't want this thread to deteriorate into "another one of those". I haven't seen anyone do the actual math, hence my efforts. I'm showing my formulas and my work in an attempt at tranceparency so personal bias will not be a factor. My math does not attempt to skew the results in any direction...it simply is what it is.

I guess at this point, the only way to know for sure if RSII is bugged, or DP is capped at 20 would be to try similar testing with a level 20 wearing either the chaos robes or abashi set.

Edit: It's my understanding from the description of spell augmentation, that the ONLY form that stands a chance of boosting CL is in fact the infused chaos robes. The descriptions for arcane augmentation state wizard/sorcerer which makes sense, as we're talking divine not arcane. However, descriptions are often wrong or misleading, so does arcane augmentation help divines? Arcane Lore does.

[EatSmart]

Edit: It's my understanding from the description of spell augmentation, that the ONLY form that stands a chance of boosting CL is in fact the infused chaos robes. The descriptions for arcane augmentation state wizard/sorcerer which makes sense, as we're talking divine not arcane. However, descriptions are often wrong or misleading, so does arcane augmentation help divines? Arcane Lore does.

First, a correction to what i posted earlier: chaos robes are only 1 caster level, as they are lesser augmentation. Chaos robes and abishai do stack according to the combat log.

Tested this time against illusionary giant in epic partycrashers. Lvl 20 FvS, Maximise, Empower, Superior Potency and full smiting line (and AoV pre).

Single stacks:

No Abishai, no chaos robe:


Chaos Robe:


Abishai:


Abishai + Chaos Robe:


Again, there appears to be no benifit from having a caster level higher than 20 for this spell.

[ShadowFlash]

First, a correction to what i posted earlier: chaos robes are only 1 caster level, as they are lesser augmentation. Chaos robes and abishai do stack according to the combat log.

Tested this time against illusionary giant in epic partycrashers. Lvl 20 FvS, Maximise, Empower, Superior Potency and full smiting line (and AoV pre).

Single stacks:

No Abishai, no chaos robe:


Chaos Robe:


Abishai:


Abishai + Chaos Robe:


Again, there appears to be no benifit from having a caster level higher than 20 for this spell.

I'm calling that absolute proof then of a Level 20 Cap. If I could give you more rep, I would Thank you very much for your testing. This does make my job easier in calculations as it eliminates a lot of gear variables. The scary thing about that is, even a 15/3/2 cleric build could still reach the CL cap with proper gearing.

[erikbozelie]

I'm calling that absolute proof then of a Level 20 Cap. If I could give you more rep, I would Thank you very much for your testing. This does make my job easier in calculations as it eliminates a lot of gear variables. The scary thing about that is, even a 15/3/2 cleric build could still reach the CL cap with proper gearing.

ew scary splash, anyway

the debuff of fvs could add about 50% damage now. pre-update 11 it was 100%.

your dps is checked at 300dps? for any level 20.
it used to be doubled for fvs. (600). per second, and its hits for every 2 seconds(1200 an tick). but thats including the damage from crits over time. i think the 2k crits fvs on dp was pre-update 11. too bad they cant do it anymore . (18% chance for X2.75)?

damage per tick is not damage per second. it hits every 2 seconds.

[ShadowFlash]

ew scary splash, anyway

the debuff of fvs could add about 50% damage now. pre-update 11 it was 100%.

your dps is checked at 300dps? for any level 20.
it used to be doubled for fvs. (600). per second, and its hits for every 2 seconds(1200 an tick). but thats including the damage from crits over time. i think the 2k crits fvs on dp was pre-update 11. too bad they cant do it anymore . (18% chance for X2.75)?

damage per tick is not damage per second. it hits every 2 seconds.

Go back and read Post #2 please. Level 20 DPS is around 220 average including criticals over time. 21% chance & 2.75 is the maximum achievable. Shield proccing is thoroughly discussed as well along the way and is intentionally left out of these calculations.