What is "Pay to Win"???

[mahiro37]

My view on Pay2Win is this:

- I have a full-time job.
- I have obligations and responsibilities outside of game.
- I make good money.
- I pay the same subscription fee as anyone else who plays.
- I buy what I want from the DDO store to make the game experience more enjoyable for me.

This is not a competition folks. Just because I just gained something does NOT mean you lost something. Improving myself does not in some way make you less.

It just seems to me that those who have an issue with people buying items to improve their gameplay need to stop worrying so much about others and worry about themselves.

Just my opinion and not an attack on anyone.

[MrkGrismer]

I tend to think of it more along the lines of PnP D&D...

If I am playing in a group where the DM is rather strict about "random" loot, and somewhere (not in my basement) there is another group, filled with people I don't know, who have a DM that lets them find Holy Avenger Swords and a Staff of the Magi in every chest, I don't care.

I believe that getting loot too quickly or too cheaply makes it less important. In a Monty Haul campaign (in PnP), no one gets excited about finding portable hole, and that's really too bad. In a campaign where "geared-out" fighters have masterwork armor, a +1 shield, a masterwork helm, and (maybe) a +2 longsword, anyone finding something as rare and wondrous as a portable hole would remember the exact day and time for years!

However, it doesn't affect me one bit if other groups can walk into a magic shop and buy anything listed in the DMG.

Likewise, even though I would be careful about buying stuff that lessens my own overall enjoyment of DDO, I couldn't care less if other people find it fun to buy whatever they want to in the store. It simply doesn't affect me one bit.

I know people are saying that buying top-end gear could let people level without learning the game, but we have lots of crappy players now. Availability of loot has little or nothing to do with it.

Interesting story there, but let's take it closer to relevance (IMO). What about if after years of playing that strict game and finally having the gear that you wanted for your character your DM allowed a new person to play, and then said, "Oh by the way, if you give me $50 you can have all the same gear as everybody else." What that also not bother you?

[Chai]

My view on Pay2Win is this:

- I have a full-time job.
- I have obligations and responsibilities outside of game.
- I make good money.
- I pay the same subscription fee as anyone else who plays.
- I buy what I want from the DDO store to make the game experience more enjoyable for me.

This is not a competition folks. Just because I just gained something does NOT mean you lost something. Improving myself does not in some way make you less.

It just seems to me that those who have an issue with people buying items to improve their gameplay need to stop worrying so much about others and worry about themselves.

Just my opinion and not an attack on anyone.

People keep thinking its about how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot. - Its not, yet I still see scads of posts like this.

Its about cheapening the game. Period.

Any reason to continually run most of the older world raids just got hosed. Perhaps they will epic out and then we can enjoy them again, but once +3s go into the store, once I get madstone out of reavers, done. Theres no reason to ever run it again. Normally players would run multiples of 20 completions for +3 tomes, which they will now just buy at level 11 and be done with, LOL.

[mystafyi]

Its about cheapening the game. Period.

Any reason to continually run most of the older world raids just got hosed. Perhaps they will epic out and then we can enjoy them again, but once +3s go into the store, once I get madstone out of reavers, done. Theres no reason to ever run it again. Normally players would run multiples of 20 completions for +3 tomes, which they will now just buy at level 11 and be done with, LOL.

agree. same with vod/hox

[mahiro37]

People keep thinking its about how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot. - Its not, yet I still see scads of posts like this.

Its about cheapening the game. Period.

Any reason to continually run most of the older world raids just got hosed. Perhaps they will epic out and then we can enjoy them again, but once +3s go into the store, once I get madstone out of reavers, done. Theres no reason to ever run it again. Normally players would run multiples of 20 completions for +3 tomes, which they will now just buy at level 11 and be done with, LOL.

Coming from that perspective, I can see your point.

I always hated it in WoW when a new expansion came out, all of the old content became obsolete and nobody would run it.

Different scenario, same result.

[aberent]

My view on Pay2Win is this:

- I have a full-time job.
- I have obligations and responsibilities outside of game.
- I make good money.
- I pay the same subscription fee as anyone else who plays.
- I buy what I want from the DDO store to make the game experience more enjoyable for me.

This is not a competition folks. Just because I just gained something does NOT mean you lost something. Improving myself does not in some way make you less.

It just seems to me that those who have an issue with people buying items to improve their gameplay need to stop worrying so much about others and worry about themselves.

Just my opinion and not an attack on anyone.

I could not have said it better myself!

[gloopygloop]

My view on Pay2Win is this:

- I have a full-time job.
- I have obligations and responsibilities outside of game.
- I make good money.
- I pay the same subscription fee as anyone else who plays.
- I buy what I want from the DDO store to make the game experience more enjoyable for me.

This is not a competition folks. Just because I just gained something does NOT mean you lost something. Improving myself does not in some way make you less.

It just seems to me that those who have an issue with people buying items to improve their gameplay need to stop worrying so much about others and worry about themselves.

Just my opinion and not an attack on anyone.

I agree with this. I also believe that it's a good idea for me to buy sports trophies for my kids even though they aren't athletic and we don't have enough time to bring them to practices or games.

It's only a game. Just because my kids got the same trophies that your kids got does NOT mean that your kids lost something.

[Callavan]

People keep thinking its about how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot. - Its not, yet I still see scads of posts like this.

Its about cheapening the game. Period.

It is exactly about "how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot", according to many peoples' complaints. If this phrase isn't what defines "cheapening the game" for you, then it's still about the availability of the loot. You can control that easily enough on your side by not using the DDO store for that stuff. So you still have every reason to run whatever you want, for whatever reasons you decide you have. So in keeping with your assertion (which I'm not buying) that it isn't about how other people are getting their loot, and my assertion that you can control how little or much you buy from the DDO store, exactly how is the game being cheapened for you by the inclusion of trinkets in the DDO store?

You mean that bit about nobody bothering to run certain quests? That generally happens after new expansions are released anyway, as old ones become obsolete by comparison for whatever reason. And at that, it's still boiling down to what other people are doing with their characters, which again... kinda refutes your original statement there.

[gloopygloop]

exactly how is the game being cheapened for you by the inclusion of trinkets in the DDO store?

The fact that you even called them "trinkets" means that you consider their value to be pretty cheap. Sounds like Chai is correct in his assertion that putting things in the store cheapens them.

[Callavan]

The fact that you even called them "trinkets" means that you consider their value to be pretty cheap. Sounds like Chai is correct in his assertion that putting things in the store cheapens them.

It's video game loot. I don't care if you have to grind for six months to get it or you buy stacks of 100 in the DDO store; there's nothing in DDO that cannot be described as a "trinket" as I was using the term.

That's why I think this brouhaha is so hilarious to begin with.

[aberent]

People keep thinking its about how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot. - Its not, yet I still see scads of posts like this.

Its about cheapening the game. Period.

Any reason to continually run most of the older world raids just got hosed. Perhaps they will epic out and then we can enjoy them again, but once +3s go into the store, once I get madstone out of reavers, done. Theres no reason to ever run it again. Normally players would run multiples of 20 completions for +3 tomes, which they will now just buy at level 11 and be done with, LOL.

1. There are lots of posts in this thread that are "how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot" and they are upset because somehow being able to buy the Tome cheapens their accomplishment.

2. Some people will buy the tome and some will not, the players that want the sense of accomplishment will coninue doing 20 runs and the world will keep on turning PUGs and all.

[mahiro37]

I agree with this. I also believe that it's a good idea for me to buy sports trophies for my kids even though they aren't athletic and we don't have enough time to bring them to practices or games.

It's only a game. Just because my kids got the same trophies that your kids got does NOT mean that your kids lost something.

Sports involve a competition. DDO does not.

If you look at it as a competition as to who is better because of the loot that they have, I would suggest you have bigger issues.

[Kushiel]

People keep thinking its about how I got my loot -vs- how you got your loot. - Its not, yet I still see scads of posts like this.

Its about cheapening the game. Period.

Any reason to continually run most of the older world raids just got hosed. Perhaps they will epic out and then we can enjoy them again, but once +3s go into the store, once I get madstone out of reavers, done. Theres no reason to ever run it again. Normally players would run multiples of 20 completions for +3 tomes, which they will now just buy at level 11 and be done with, LOL.

To me it seems incredibly accurate to state it that "To you it is interpreted as cheapening the game. Period."

That is an entirely different viewpoint than a blanket "Its about cheapening the game. Period.

And I say that difference matters because to some portion of the population it is Not about cheapening the game. The overall scope and weave of the world is not torn asunder... they, in whatever incremental or wholesale ways they can afford to change their character(s), may very well find greater enjoyment in *continuing* to play the world.

As for if the only reason people are running through certain quests is to get certain gear - and not because they are enjoying that adventure, their companions, teaching, practicing, nor playing different from the routine "almost-guaranteed-even-in-a-PUG" recipe for "success" - it seems to say something about that adventure. Or the people playing it.

There is lots of content I actively avoid because no matter how beautiful, powerful, and shiney the possible rewards are... the process (the foes, the mechanics of play, the disparity of what my current character is able to do compared to the might of the enemies) is Aggravating, Frustrating, PITA, Unfun.

For people who like ordeals, and feel their "gaming" experience must contain disappointment, resignation, and suffering... allowing the other segments of the population to play in the world differently does not remove that possible experience.

[gloopygloop]

Sports involve a competition. DDO does not.

If you look at it as a competition as to who is better because of the loot that they have, I would suggest you have bigger issues.

If you're spending time playing an MMO at all, I might suggest the same.

We're all in the same boat here. Don't try to pretend that you're better than anyone else here.

[mahiro37]

If you're spending time playing an MMO at all, I might suggest the same.

We're all in the same boat here. Don't try to pretend that you're better than anyone else here.

I never once said I was better than anyone in any way. I play the game to have fun. Period.

Others have fun in different ways which are completely relevant.

Comparing gear to sports trophies however, implies competition, which means that you feel the need to be better than the next person.

Just seems a road to frustration in what should be a fun hobby.

[mournbladereigns]

Interesting story there, but let's take it closer to relevance (IMO). What about if after years of playing that strict game and finally having the gear that you wanted for your character your DM allowed a new person to play, and then said, "Oh by the way, if you give me $50 you can have all the same gear as everybody else." What that also not bother you?

Actualy, yeah, since the GM should just give him a character as 'powerful' as the rest of us, so he can play with us on equal footing. DDO sidesteps alot of this 'cheating' junk because you only have to play with the people you want to play with, in the manner which you like.

Does it somehow cheapen Permadeath player's experience since everyone else can play with twinked out toons with giant piles of pots and power through content? How about no.

Play the game by own your expectations and rules. The 'it isn't legit if you don't earn it rule is part of your game contract', and not necessarily mine.
Just like permadeath players, you can choose to play by the same rules. Play in-game loot only, with like minded people.

DDO is robust enough for this to work. There is no PvP. You don't have to worry about competing with the other guys, cause you don't have to fight with him directly, he has no direct advantage over you. He can only compete indirectly, by taking ur raid spot, or whatevs, and you have the ability to exclude him from indirect competition by choosing not to run with him. Will people not run raids cause they can just buy it. Not if it means enough for them to include it in their game contract and play style. If it's important to you, play with people who do it the same way. Most raiders do guild runs, add the no store rule to your guild rules, presto problem solved. If it works for perma-death players, it can work for you.

You have both the power and responsibility in DDO to set your own boundaries and playstyles. There is no overwhelming PvP element to make it a moot point.

[MrkGrismer]

Actualy, yeah, since the GM should just give him a character as 'powerful' as the rest of us, so he can play with us on equal footing. DDO sidesteps alot of this 'cheating' junk because you only have to play with the people you want to play with, in the manner which you like.

That's not what I said, I asked if you would feel the same if the GM gave him a character 'as powerful' as the rest of you if, and only if he gave the GM $50.

[gloopygloop]

I never once said I was better than anyone in any way. I play the game to have fun. Period.

Others have fun in different ways which are completely relevant.

Comparing gear to sports trophies however, implies competition, which means that you feel the need to be better than the next person.

Just seems a road to frustration in what should be a fun hobby.

So, are you just saying that everyone who enjoys competition is unhealthy? I'm getting confused now. I enjoy the hell out of competitions, but I'm also okay with losing - as long as I lost to someone who played better than me.

I am less frustrated than you might expect.

[Zion_Halcyon]

Your central premise is wrong. Pay2Win is not limited to things that cannot be gained in-game. That is simply the most egregious case of it. Pay2Win simply means, paying to win, where "win" is a term used to refer to any of the usual rewards of the game.

Earning loot is a "win", so paying for it is Pay2Win. So far, the loot we've been able to buy has been limited to stuff of minor usefulness, or that is easy to get in-game.

Earning XP is a "win", so paying for it is Pay2Win. In the case of XP pots, it's limited enough that it has little effect on the game.

Now, I realize that not everyone considers those things "wins", but frankly, I think they're in a tiny minority. Most people are at least a little excited when they get a new level, or finally pull the item they've been looking for.

No, his central premise is 100% right. He's saying people are spoiled when they don't get their way, and they are.

He nailed it, and just like what always happens when someone brings up a hurtful truth, people refuse to acknowledge it, because doing so acknowledges that they are wrong, and people for some dumb reason have a deep seeded fear of admitting being wrong on the internet.

[mournbladereigns]

That's not what I said, I asked if you would feel the same if the GM gave him a character 'as powerful' as the rest of you if, and only if he gave the GM $50.

I'd probably think the GM is a jerk, and say he should GIVE it to him for FREE. So he can play the game at the same power level as us. Because that way we can all start off on equal footing, which is straight up impossible in an MMO.

Heck, I might convince the rest of the players to come up with the buy-in for him.

Would us giving him equal power, or even paying for the power for him, then lessen our enjoyment more, than sticking him with a vastly less powerful character that won't even live for a second in the adventures we are playing?

Should we all sit around the table and laugh at him cause he didn't pony up the $50 and dies in the first encounter, cause he's a noob and hasn't played as long as we have? Because everyone else at the table said he can suck it since he hasn't been playing as long as they have, in the same campaign, and therefore didn't earn his loot? Even though he wants to have fun with his friends?

Think about it.