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  1. #1
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Default 32 pt THF Paladin - Race and PrE?

    Basically, I've been in a bit of a Paladin mood.

    Specifically, a paladin swinging around a two-handed sword (...alright, falchion, greataxe, whatever) and owning evil's face.

    However, Junts' guide, while great and amazingly still relevant, doesn't exactly cover races like Half Orc and Half Elf - at least I don't think it does.

    Of course, there's also the human/helf Damage Boost to take into consideration...

    And then I hear something about DoS becoming better overall DPS than Knight of the Chalice, which is surprising to say the least.

    I dunno, which do you guys recommend?
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  2. #2
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    nevermind.
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 09-29-2011 at 01:41 PM. Reason: OP didn't seem to be interested.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    No splashing, please.

    For one thing, that capstone looks so delicious.

    For another... I just don't enjoy splashing.

    Also, Stalwart Defender is Fighter, silly. Defender of Syberis is the Paladin equivalent :P
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  4. #4
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Also, Stalwart Defender is Fighter, silly. Defender of Syberis is the Paladin equivalent :P
    The way your response is phrases is suggesting that my post above is not too valuable to you. My bad. My initial response has been removed to save you some trouble.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Removed because of friendly resolution via PM.
    Last edited by Zachski; 09-29-2011 at 08:09 PM.
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    I have recently been leveling up my TR paladin and have some information for you.

    First determine what tiers of divine might (DM) you want to achieve with your paladin. What tier you can take through enhancements is determined by your base charisma + any tomes. Tier 4 of DM gives +8 to damage and requires a 20 charisma. On a 32 point build I would recommend speccing for a 16 or 18 charisma which will give you Tier2 or Tier3 respectively.

    As others have mentioned, stay pure and dont splash. If you were going TWF I could see splashing 2 monk levels but for THF I dont feel that the splash is worth the loss of the capstone

    You also need to think of gear. I like the Sora Kell set from lordsmarch. Put it on at level 11 for +5 to str, wis, and char then upgrade it to +6 at level 13. I also use a Heavy Fort robe as my item since I dont wear a minos legens helm.

    Remember while playing your paladin that their DPS might not be as good as other classes but you gain a lot in survivability to offset that.

    For a 32 point build I would go human with 16 8 17 9 8 15 on stats, put 1 level up into charisma, and the other 4 into str. Eat a +1 tome in intelligence and wisdom at level 3. Eat a +2 tome in str, charisma and con whenever you can afford them. Take power attack, improved criticals, shield mastery(for DoS) and the rest of your feats into toughness. Have fun and good luck.

  7. #7
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_of_Oz View Post
    I have recently been leveling up my TR paladin and have some information for you.

    First determine what tiers of divine might (DM) you want to achieve with your paladin. What tier you can take through enhancements is determined by your base charisma + any tomes. Tier 4 of DM gives +8 to damage and requires a 20 charisma. On a 32 point build I would recommend speccing for a 16 or 18 charisma which will give you Tier2 or Tier3 respectively.

    As others have mentioned, stay pure and dont splash. If you were going TWF I could see splashing 2 monk levels but for THF I dont feel that the splash is worth the loss of the capstone

    You also need to think of gear. I like the Sora Kell set from lordsmarch. Put it on at level 11 for +5 to str, wis, and char then upgrade it to +6 at level 13. I also use a Heavy Fort robe as my item since I dont wear a minos legens helm.

    Remember while playing your paladin that their DPS might not be as good as other classes but you gain a lot in survivability to offset that.

    For a 32 point build I would go human with 16 8 17 9 8 15 on stats, put 1 level up into charisma, and the other 4 into str. Eat a +1 tome in intelligence and wisdom at level 3. Eat a +2 tome in str, charisma and con whenever you can afford them. Take power attack, improved criticals, shield mastery(for DoS) and the rest of your feats into toughness. Have fun and good luck.
    Thanks for the information

    I would prefer to go tomeless, actually, but I can work out the stats myself.

    So, going Human has more advantages than the Half Orc's additional damage to two-handed weapons? Alrighty then, I guess that works.

    Out of curiosity, what about the THF feats? You seem to be suggesting a lot of toughness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post

    I would prefer to go tomeless, actually, but I can work out the stats myself.
    Going tomeless on a paladin puts you at some serious disadvantages compared to more traditional melee classes like fighter or barbarian. Since paladins use 3 primary stats instead of 2 you gain more by not maxing any one stat and instead aim for a nice high average on all 3. Tomes help you make up some lost ground in that sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    So, going Human has more advantages than the Half Orc's additional damage to two-handed weapons? Alrighty then, I guess that works.
    A human will do less damage than a horc generally, however horc penalties to charisma result in a less survivable character. Also a human with lower str can do more DPS than a max str horc with TWF enhancements:

    MaxStr Horc- 20starting + 2str (racial enhacnemt) + 4damage (racial enhancement) = +6 more damage compared to human.

    Human 17 starting str + 1 enhancement + 8dmg from DM4 = +2 more dmg than horc and +3 points at character creation from not maxing str..

    Really though as a paladin you probably would not want to max out your str at character creation. Fighter and Barb THF have it easy. Max str, max con and roll. Paladins need charisma too for maximum effectiveness.. Charisma makes your smites more likely to hit, gives you access to additional damage through divine might, increases the healing power of your lay of hands, and increases your saves. Also paladins easily use up all their enhancement points and taking 2 str, and the THF line will eat into other enhancements such as exalted smite and divine sacrifice.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    of curiosity, what about the THF feats? You seem to be suggesting a lot of toughness.
    Paladins need HP if they want to be front line melee. The THF feat line only adds to your DPS if you stand still and swing at multiple mobs. Personally I am usually moving and trying not to be surrounded by multiple mobs. I find the stand still and whack away method leads to more deaths. Also if you have 400 HP or so standing around swinging at multiple mobs wont work out so well for you. If you take 4-5 toughness feats with a starting con of 15-16 it is easy to attain 550+ HP. Imagine showing up for an epic quest or TOD raid as a melee and having 400 hp and saying "But I have the full THF line!"...

  9. #9
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    If your going pure, try and aim to have 20 base charisma by lvl 19-20, and you can get divine might 4... if you want to spend the AP on it. I'd recommend at least DM 3 though (18 cha).

  10. #10
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckWisdom View Post
    If your going pure, try and aim to have 20 base charisma by lvl 19-20, and you can get divine might 4... if you want to spend the AP on it. I'd recommend at least DM 3 though (18 cha).
    Alright... so I'd need at least 16 starting Charisma to manage that, assuming I don't mind grinding for a +4 tome end-game.

    A 16 - 8 - 14 - 8 - 8 - 16 spread might work for that then.

    Paladin being a survivable class helps with the lower con a bit.

    Aim for DoS for the strength/con bonus and we're golden.

    Seems fairly simple then.
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  11. #11
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    If you want to stay pure and go THF, then I say forget all the extraneous stuff and just build up a max strength H-Orc Knight of the Chalice.

    I don't think it is really worth it to go with DoS as your prestige. While it is true that you get very nice bonuses to strength, con and HP, that ability also prevents you from getting raged (effectively -2 strength and con), and can make use of Madstone Rage quite a bit more complicated since it wont proc while you're in stance. But the biggest reason not to go DoS is that you need to waste a feat on a feat-starved build. Either you have to put 5 build points into Int AND use a +2 tome to get Combat Expertise, or you have to take something like Diehard. Even though KotC isn't that good, what you give up for the limited benefits of Dos are just not worth it, in my opinion.

    I would also say don't fret too much about trying to unlock high tiers of Divine Might. A +1 increase in your strength mod VS charisma mod (on a THF) is +1.5 damage and +1 to-hit VS +2 damage and +1 saves. Your saves will already be in the good-to-great range, and with power attack + enhancements you will want all the to-hit you can get. If you were going TWF, then it would be a very different matter.

    Here's a 32-point build I threw together. I used a +2 supreme tome at level 7, but it is not required for the character to be effective.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Orc Male
    (20 Paladin) 
    Hit Points: 362
    Spell Points: 300 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 21
    Reflex: 12
    Will: 12
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             20                    29
    Dexterity             8                    10
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence          6                     8
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             14                    16
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance              -1                     0
    Bluff                 2                     3
    Concentration         2                     3
    Diplomacy             2                     3
    Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                2                     3
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                 -1                     0
    Intimidate            2                     3
    Jump                  5                     9
    Listen               -1                     0
    Move Silently        -1                     0
    Open Lock            n/a                    n/a
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair               -2                    -1
    Search               -2                    -1
    Spot                 -1                     0
    Swim                  5                     9
    Tumble               n/a                    n/a
    Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a
    
    Level 1 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 8 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
    Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
    Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
    Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    You'll see that I took Extend at level 9. This is basically your one free feat that could be used to qualify for DoS if you really want to have that option. Once again, however, I will say that I don't think it is a good call on a pure THF build, regardless of the race you chose.

    If you do reeeeaaaallly want to go with DoS, then you could drop the entire THF line and instead take Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery and EWP: Khopesh to give yourself a viable sword and board mode (for the DR) to be used while hate tanking.

  12. #12
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_of_Oz View Post
    Going tomeless on a paladin puts you at some serious disadvantages compared to more traditional melee classes like fighter or barbarian. Since paladins use 3 primary stats instead of 2 you gain more by not maxing any one stat and instead aim for a nice high average on all 3. Tomes help you make up some lost ground in that sense.
    Then I'll use tomes as I find them, however, I'm not going to buy tomes at level 3.


    A human will do less damage than a horc generally, however horc penalties to charisma result in a less survivable character. Also a human with lower str can do more DPS than a max str horc with TWF enhancements:
    I have no idea what TWF has to do with this discussion.


    Paladins need HP if they want to be front line melee. The THF feat line only adds to your DPS if you stand still and swing at multiple mobs. Personally I am usually moving and trying not to be surrounded by multiple mobs. I find the stand still and whack away method leads to more deaths. Also if you have 400 HP or so standing around swinging at multiple mobs wont work out so well for you. If you take 4-5 toughness feats with a starting con of 15-16 it is easy to attain 550+ HP. Imagine showing up for an epic quest or TOD raid as a melee and having 400 hp and saying "But I have the full THF line!"...
    ...This is because people can see HP now, isn't it?

    Um, congratulations, you're the first person I've seen to actually recommend taking Toughness more than once in a Paladin, let alone *5 times.*

    and as I am horribad at twitching (believe me, I've tried to do it) I'd actually prefer the "stand still and beat them down" route.

    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    If you want to stay pure and go THF, then I say forget all the extraneous stuff and just build up a max strength H-Orc Knight of the Chalice.
    Alright, fair enough.

    I would also say don't fret too much about trying to unlock high tiers of Divine Might. A +1 increase in your strength mod VS charisma mod (on a THF) is +1.5 damage and +1 to-hit VS +2 damage and +1 saves. Your saves will already be in the good-to-great range, and with power attack + enhancements you will want all the to-hit you can get. If you were going TWF, then it would be a very different matter.
    Hmm...

    Getting DM 3 would probably be good.

    Here's a 32-point build I threw together. I used a +2 supreme tome at level 7, but it is not required for the character to be effective.
    Interesting. You took Power Attack kinda early though O_o and THF kinda later than I expected.

    Any particular reason for this?

    Also, what if I chose to take Cleave instead of Extend?
    Last edited by Zachski; 10-03-2011 at 01:51 AM.
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  13. #13
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Getting DM 3 would probably be good.

    Interesting. You took Power Attack kinda early though O_o and THF kinda later than I expected.

    Any particular reason for this?

    Also, what if I chose to take Cleave instead of Extend?
    DM3 requires 18 charisma counting only starting stats, tomes, and level-ups. You can get there with a +2 tome on a Horc, but those build points from 14 to 16 charisma are expensive. And the payout just isn't worth it, in my opinion. That is the equivalent of going to 20 charisma on a human paladin, which almost no one does because it is too expensive. But it's your character so do what you want with it. You could get there easily enough by dropping starting strength to 18.

    I took PA early because you get a lot more benefit out of it than THF. Most of the benefits of the THF chain come with the last feat. Power attack, on the other hand, is a massive +10 damage with a 2-handed weapon. You'll have enough strength to leave it on even at low levels with that build. But once again, do as you see fit - either way will get you there.

    Cleave is a solid choice. I haven't actually used it, so can't say much about it. I can say that Extend on a pure paladin is not as necessary as on splash builds, so it can be easily dropped with little downside. I think it would be a lot of fun to kill 50 kobolds with one well-placed cleave... makes me really want to be able to do an exalted smite-cleave!
    Last edited by whomhead; 09-29-2011 at 09:20 PM.

  14. #14
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    DM3 requires 18 charisma counting only starting stats, tomes, and level-ups. You can get there with a +2 tome on a Horc, but those build points from 14 to 16 charisma are expensive. And the payout just isn't worth it, in my opinion. That is the equivalent of going to 20 charisma on a human paladin, which almost no one does because it is too expensive. But it's your character so do what you want with it. You could get there easily enough by dropping starting strength to 18.
    Mm, DM 2 is fine then.

    I took PA early because you get a lot more benefit out of it than THF. Most of the benefits of the THF chain come with the last feat. Power attack, on the other hand, is a massive +10 damage with a 2-handed weapon. You'll have enough strength to leave it on even at low levels with that build. But once again, do as you see fit - either way will get you there.
    In that case, sounds good

    Cleave is a solid choice. I haven't actually used it, so can't say much about it. I can say that Extend on a pure paladin is not as necessary as on splash builds, so it can be easily dropped with little downside. I think it would be a lot of fun to kill 50 kobolds with one well-placed cleave... makes me really want to be able to do an exalted smite-cleave!
    Hahaha, yeah, that would be awesome.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    -snip-
    Actually, now that I'm playing, I have a question.

    I notice you only took the first tier of Divine Sacrifice. Is there a reason for that?
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  16. #16
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Going with Half Orc will give you some THF enhancments as well as strength

    Going with Half Elf will give you some of the better Human enhancements such as healing amp/versititly and also allow you to raise up to two different Attributes (STR/CON/DEX/WIS/INT/CHA) through enhancements

    Addtionaly - Half Elf had the Dilly Feat Lines with Enhancments

    Ones that will most likely be available without having to tome from the start

    1) Favored Soul/Sorcerer <- Charisma of 13. Favored Soul will get you access to Healing Spells earlier then UMD, Sorcerer will get you access to Buffs like Shield and Fireshield and even Scroll Rage Casting.
    2) Barbarian <- CON of 13. More HP and DR
    3) Fighter <- Str of 13. Opens up some fighter enhancements
    4) Cleric <- Wis of 13. Same as Favored Soul just one level better - Most Paladin builds do not start with this high of Wisdom
    5) Wizard/Artificier <- Int of 13. Int of 13 is usually only obtained by one that plans on CE as a Feat. Wizard is similar to Sorcerer but 1 level better in scroll usage. Artificeir gains those scrolls which most are not available through purchase and would be difficult to use to self buff Two Handed weapons. But Artificer comes with some UMD love so it might be worth it here if this can bring you up to using High level Divine and Arcane scrolls
    6) Rogue/Ranger <- Dex of 13. Rogue brings some sneak attack damage

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    Making the choice between charisma and strength, keep in mind that paladins to-hit can be difficult to get high. Ive heard this but Im really starting to realize it now, as I get my fighter and bard up to 20 and see their to-hit's. (bard song would help my pally too, but bard always has bard song so it really adds to her attack bonus).

    And as someone else said, with THF, 2 stregnth points equals 1.5 damage and 1 to hit, unlike 1h or 2wf where it equals 1 and 1. But still, your gonna want some Cha anyways for the saves, smite etc so decide what level of divine might you want and build your cha around that (including probably a +2 tome, which you'll get eventually at end game, unless you can count on a higher tome).

    Whatever tier you aim for, that + a 6 item and perhaps enhancement increases, your cha will be at a totally acceptable level.

    Im currently trying to find a +3 tome before TRing so I can put all 5 level ups into str, and still achieve DM tier 3 next life.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckWisdom View Post
    And as someone else said, with THF, 2 stregnth points equals 1.5 damage and 1 to hit, unlike 1h or 2wf where it equals 1 and 1.
    Technically, for TWF +4 Str adds +2 to the main hand, and +1 to the off-hand, which itself Procs with 80%. So it's safe to say that for TWF one Str bracket adds +1.4 damage.
    For THF, to-hit isn't a grave issue as it is for TWF.

    Why am I saying all of this?

    Basically, for TWF, a Cha bracket (and the corresponding DM tier) adds +3.6 damage. 2 on the main, 2 on the 80% off-hand. Str just adds +1.4 damage, but +1 to-hit.
    For THF, on the other side, it's +1.5 damage and +1 to hit vs. +2 damage.

    As your to-hit will be okay, and the HOrc's PA enhancements will lower it further, I think that it's a good choice to drop the highest DM tiers on a THF HOrc. I don't want to think about the stat spread of a 32pt Horc TWF Pally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post

    I have no idea what TWF has to do with this discussion.
    Sorry that was a typo on my part I meant THF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post


    ...This is because people can see HP now, isn't it?

    Um, congratulations, you're the first person I've seen to actually recommend taking Toughness more than once in a Paladin, let alone *5 times.*
    I can assure you that I do not roll high HP toons just because other people can see it. I recommend and play high HP toons for certain roles because of experience. I have tanked raids on a 650 hp barbarian, and on a 550 hp fighter. I can tell you from that experience that the more HP you have the better off you are, both of those toons suffered from not enough HP at end game. As a paladin people will expect and ask if you can tank and I find on my 750+hp pally that I am far more survivable because of the toughness feats I have taken than if I had taken THF or Cleave. To each his own.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    The first tier of DS is the only one that you really need. The major thing that makes it such a good ability is the increased crit multiplier you get for that attack. You get that at the first tier, and it doesn't change as you increase beyond that. The extra light damage is nice, and I'd have taken more if I could fit it in, but the AP are surprisingly tight on that build, so that was one of the things I dropped.

    Hopefully you're enjoying the character!

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