Epics and Such

[kailiea]

The idea behind this clearly serious post hits to close to the truth.

What if EPIC turned into the questing that you take only your most geared toons? When you need a base item on a new toon you get to run "ghetto" until you get it, and not pike a epic completion. If you take a new toon in a key roll and wipe a epic raid, lessoned learned. Practice, learn, and try again.

What if EPIC ment you had to have gameplan, a party leader that new the quest well and had experience? Pugged a Ecrono with our favorite Circus guild on Thenalis the other day. Maybe one death, no pots and smooth run. His method was simple. Slow and steady wins the day. Took way more time, but shouldnt pug runs? I like to think if im running with guild and close friends I should get a edge to content that i couldnt get hitting a random lfm.

My first Epic run ever i was on a Cleric. I saw the lfm and was like ok I can do this. Grabbed 300 heal scrolls, made sure i had a ton of pots, and repaired my gear. I was so disappointed that the hardest challege in the game I ended up scroll healing and not using the one shrine. At the end I said, was that it? I got a chuckle and a well done. Made a new friend. What would we do if EPIC was truly the challenge the idea of it implied. Umpossible I know.

I enjoy the challenge of the game. What do we do when the challenge disappears? We can only blow so many friends up in Elite blown to bits before it too would become a mindless grind. Time to man up and push ourselves.

Saaaaaay I have a few epic raids to pike Bayleaf! I also have to flag my healer for the new raids....I think I am missing blown to bits

[Captain_Wizbang]

+1 well put!

As stated in a reply here, taking a standard quest and raising HP & whatever is not the best solution, adding more diverse challenges and difficulty would be a better fit for end game content!

[Astraghal]

The only problem with difficult complex raids is there's no way for new players to learn what needs to be done at each point without experiencing it first in a group that knows. This has always been a problem in DDO, not being able to learn content because those who can do it, zerg it because they want fast completions, not be a tutor. If there were a way to examine the bosses special moves by talking to an NPC after you see them for the first time, this would help. Or just a short video showing the key things.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Show me...

Don't show me screen shots...

People post achievement screen shots and thats fine...

But...

I would be willing to spend whatever time watching endgame geared (or non-epic geared) toons soloing epic content... Soloing Elite ToD or whatever

Prove to me that yall do these things which as much ease as you claim...

Show me a video of how you play, what you do, how you recover, how much damage you are mitigating, how long can you go before you drink a pot, how often you change gear out for UMD or w/e.

My perceptions I had on certain aspects of this game changed after watching "Rogue Solo Sins on Elite" and Axer's "Solo Sins on Elite Brute Force method"

Show me something I can relate to besides a trophy SS,

As of right now I have absolultely zero interest in farming epic gear in this game. Not a fan of gambling.

But my friends do.

I am a torn.

My 2nd life PM can hit a 41 Necro DC and 40 Enchant DC with a +2 Boat Buff, even +3 higher in short bursts with the Abishai Cookies or Drinking a Yugo Pot, and even higher with a +4 tome but meh...

This seems to be an ok DC to do some epics...

But I could easily play another year or more just TRing toons, playing different builds, experiencing the same content I have many times from a different characters POV, get some Past Lives etc.

My experience with early Epics wasn't bad, just seemed completely stupid and cheesy, High DC Enchant, Mass Hold, Stun, Woo Stick, Done...hated it. Do the same ez thing over and over 500k times and maybe get 1/3 somethings for an epic item to sit in the bank for a year till ya get lucky again (luck as in getting a good group, your friends being on, not being torn down from RL work etc)

And now the epic game is harder...so I play parts of the game I *KNOW* I will enjoy, and avoid beating my head against an epic grind for S I apparently don't really need to do Epics in the first place.

Just...show me...

Prove the epic game is easily soloable,

Show me a video of a 4 man Elite ToD

I have no doubts yall accomplished these things,

Show me more..

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have mixed feelings.

I like a challenge. But I can't solo a challenge (not that I want to)...so I need help.
And I hate to discriminate. I want to take the first five(eleven) that join me and be able to complete.

I don't expect an easy completion... I don't mind a struggle. But I think that more often than not, I should be able to complete a quest with anyone of the appropriate lvl.

Old quests/raids: were lower lvl. They were not made for lvl 20s.
But because the rare loot is stil desireable, lvl 20s grind them often.

Now...these same griding 20s now have Epic gear....they complete older dungeans real fast....

So the devs decided to make them harder for those supermen.
Which....hurts the normal men....of the approrpriate lvl....who have not grinded for epic gear....
Which I think is wrong.


So on one hand I do want a challenge.
And I hate that the supermen can just get a new epic item every five minutes.....

But on the other hand, I want the game to still be completable by the average man.

Myself....I think I am above average. If not in gear, defiantely in experience....which makes a huge difference in how easy or hard a quest is.

And I do want a challenge.

But I want to bring the average guy with me...if he wants to play. And I want to be able to complete.....

without compromising my principles.


failing a quest is not fun.
But neither is grinding effortlessly to uberness.

So....caught in the middle..

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I have mixed feelings.

I like a challenge. But I can't solo a challenge (not that I want to)...so I need help.
And I hate to discriminate. I want to take the first five(eleven) that join me and be able to complete.

I don't expect an easy completion... I don't mind a struggle. But I think that more often than not, I should be able to complete a quest with anyone of the appropriate lvl.

Old quests/raids: were lower lvl. They were not made for lvl 20s.
But because the rare loot is stil desireable, lvl 20s grind them often.

Now...these same griding 20s now have Epic gear....they complete older dungeans real fast....

So the devs decided to make them harder for those supermen.
Which....hurts the normal men....of the approrpriate lvl....who have not grinded for epic gear....
Which I think is wrong.


So on one hand I do want a challenge.
And I hate that the supermen can just get a new epic item every five minutes.....

But on the other hand, I want the game to still be completable by the average man.

Myself....I think I am above average. If not in gear, defiantely in experience....which makes a huge difference in how easy or hard a quest is.

And I do want a challenge.

But I want to bring the average guy with me...if he wants to play. And I want to be able to complete.....

without compromising my principles.


failing a quest is not fun.
But neither is grinding effortlessly to uberness.

So....caught in the middle..

You have a much more polite way of expressing my feelings

Sometimes being a pasty white malnourished basement dwellar makes me antagonistic lmao

[Detonate]

I have mixed feelings.

I like a challenge. But I can't solo a challenge (not that I want to)...so I need help.
And I hate to discriminate. I want to take the first five(eleven) that join me and be able to complete.

I don't expect an easy completion... I don't mind a struggle. But I think that more often than not, I should be able to complete a quest with anyone of the appropriate lvl.

Old quests/raids: were lower lvl. They were not made for lvl 20s.
But because the rare loot is stil desireable, lvl 20s grind them often.

Now...these same griding 20s now have Epic gear....they complete older dungeans real fast....

So the devs decided to make them harder for those supermen.
Which....hurts the normal men....of the approrpriate lvl....who have not grinded for epic gear....
Which I think is wrong.


So on one hand I do want a challenge.
And I hate that the supermen can just get a new epic item every five minutes.....

But on the other hand, I want the game to still be completable by the average man.

Myself....I think I am above average. If not in gear, defiantely in experience....which makes a huge difference in how easy or hard a quest is.

And I do want a challenge.

But I want to bring the average guy with me...if he wants to play. And I want to be able to complete.....

without compromising my principles.


failing a quest is not fun.
But neither is grinding effortlessly to uberness.

So....caught in the middle..

Talon, I completely understand what you are trying to say. Maybe what is misunderstood is the amount of time it takes to gather up all of these epic items. You posted how uber toons seem to create new epic weapons every 5 minutes. That sentence makes it quite evident that maybe the masses dont understand truly how much these elite players/guilds actually run and grind these quests to make items. They grind for shards/seals for some quests literally every single day on every single toon they have. I've seen it, its amazing (and horrifying). It is not nearly as easy to get the truly elite stuff as many would suggest. Just go and try to find a Marilith chain scroll for a reasonable price.

You had a few statements in your post that summarize the difference in your opinion and mine quite clearly.
"failing a quest is not fun". I Disagree, I am not smiling like going to a water park when we wipe on eLOB but let me propose this. Beating it for the 200th time on normal wont be fun either. If the challenge is simplified to match all of the other quests, then it will be simply a matter of time before there is absolutely no means for some players to ever truly 'have fun'. Anything worth doing is never easily accomplished.

As for wanting to enjoy the same content as me, and being stuck in the middle I sympathize. What I would say is, all of the other content on the non-epic difficulties are specifically coded for people who share your quandary. People who want some challenge, but not a ridiculous amount of gear, and time, and resources required. Elite LOB is no joke, but is doable without much more than greensteel, a few good healers, and maybe an intimi. My argument is that the Epic raids in question are not for players who are probably of a healthy state of mind. Leave that to people who have literally exhausted every other option in the game to derive a challenge. The power they will gain by accomplishing these Epics is more of a sense of accomplishment than it is getting one more epic hockey puck for their satchel.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon, I completely understand what you are trying to say. Maybe what is misunderstood is the amount of time it takes to gather up all of these epic items. You posted how uber toons seem to create new epic weapons every 5 minutes. That sentence makes it quite evident that maybe the masses dont understand truly how much these elite players/guilds actually run and grind these quests to make items. They grind for shards/seals for some quests literally every single day on every single toon they have. I've seen it, its amazing (and horrifying). It is not nearly as easy to get the truly elite stuff as many would suggest. Just go and try to find a Marilith chain scroll for a reasonable price.

You had a few statements in your post that summarize the difference in your opinion and mine quite clearly.
"failing a quest is not fun". I Disagree, I am not smiling like going to a water park when we wipe on eLOB but let me propose this. Beating it for the 200th time on normal wont be fun either. If the challenge is simplified to match all of the other quests, then it will be simply a matter of time before there is absolutely no means for some players to ever truly 'have fun'. Anything worth doing is never easily accomplished.

As for wanting to enjoy the same content as me, and being stuck in the middle I sympathize. What I would say is, all of the other content on the non-epic difficulties are specifically coded for people who share your quandary. People who want some challenge, but not a ridiculous amount of gear, and time, and resources required. Elite LOB is no joke, but is doable without much more than greensteel, a few good healers, and maybe an intimi. My argument is that the Epic raids in question are not for players who are probably of a healthy state of mind. Leave that to people who have literally exhausted every other option in the game to derive a challenge. The power they will gain by accomplishing these Epics is more of a sense of accomplishment than it is getting one more epic hockey puck for their satchel.

Of course I was exagerating about the "five minute" thing.

I was trying to come up with a creative way to adrees the XP/minute crowd.

No, it is not easy for them to get Epic loot. They grind like crazy. They actually work hard to get their loot.

And I do think they should be rewared for their hard work.

But I do not admire them. I think turning thr game into a repetitive boring loot run, day after day....forever....is boring.

And when I see them post exclusive LFMs. or maybe even worse, do things on casual, and take any cheezy exploitish tactic they can find to make their grind easier and quick......

I really start to lose any sympathy for them... and have no desire to see any chenge made in the game to support that playstyle choice...

Plus the fact that the grind and loot obsession turns nice peole into elitist jerks...
...sucks the fun right out of grouping..

Which is why I only own one piece of (real) epic gear... and maybe only 4 or 5 tier 3 GS items. (lvled 11 toons to 20)


About the faling thing.

The most fun I have ever had in quests is when I was able to turn a near wipe into a victory.

I have a lot of fun when it takes everything the groups has to pull off a victory.

But if I spend hours struggling, and go broke spending resources......and fail!
...... they had better have been a real fun group of people that I was with....lol


A wipe that I can release and come back and complete is ok.
Occasionally a restart that ends in victory is ok too.

But failing....not usually fun.
Occasionally, the group can make it fun. And sometimes I can still leave feeling like I had fun.
But in general, failing is not fun.

But your right....neither is the 200th effortless completion.

I have no desire to do Reaver again right now, because it has become a boring quest to me.... (and I don't even know how to do the puzzle yet...lol)
A perfect example of how something becomes boring if it is too easy.


I also do not enjoy the Hound. But in that quest I feel like it is just a roll of the dice as to whether we complete or not. I feel like there is nothing "I" can do that makes a difference between success or failure.

VoD is a little different. But I do not run it often. Otherwise being locked into a cagematch everyday would get real boring too.

Shroud is starting to get that way to me.

ToD I haven't run often yet. So it still feels new(ish). (and I really do want that Gnarled Ring!)

It's actually less about the challenge that bothers me, and more about how players have reacted to it.
Cause the response has been: "if we still want easy raid loot and guaranteed completions, we're gonna have to be even more exclusive than we were before."

[scoobmx]

I think the counter arguement is that people would like to ultimately be able to experience all of the content for which they pay/have paid. Additionally, people would like to have a reasonable possibility of upgrading their equipment to its highest tier.

I, personally, like the difficulty level of the two new raids. They are new and were created post character power creep, and there's nothing you absolutely have to have out of the raids on epic.

What I don't like is the rebalance in non-epic raids and earlier epic raids. It is not at all more fun for me personally, to go beat on the stormreaver, suulo, etc for an exorbatent amount of time. As for the prior incarnations of epic raids, such as dq and von, in theory they should be tough. In practice, however, they are pretty much the only game in town to get shards and their drop rates are not good. If there were an increased shard drop rate in the raids, and a low shard drop rate in the side epic quests, then I would be ok with them being more time consuming and would applaud the attempted increase in difficulty.

Just my thoughts.

Everyone CAN experience all the content. Almost any group can make it to the raids and choose epic. Just because you wipe in there doesn't mean you didn't experience it.

[protokon]

The only problem with difficult complex raids is there's no way for new players to learn what needs to be done at each point without experiencing it first in a group that knows. This has always been a problem in DDO, not being able to learn content because those who can do it, zerg it because they want fast completions, not be a tutor. If there were a way to examine the bosses special moves by talking to an NPC after you see them for the first time, this would help. Or just a short video showing the key things.

You know, at one point I was a newb. Then I took a group of my closest friends, and we walked into titan as a group of 5 people and took a few hours exploring and figuring out the puzzles. a couple attempts and we became experts at the raid (after screwing up the yellow room puzzle a couple times).

I also remembering walking into TOD with no spoilers, and figuring that out after a few failures. I remember my 2nd time I went into the raid, I joined a pug that told me to kite on my favored soul and I remember flailing like a newb who just ran into a room and saw a beholder for the first time. I remember getting 1 shotted on my cleric my first few shrouds in part 4, that got me so frustrated I did the research to improve my hp and survivability. I remember when Amrath came out and I took a group of my friends into bastion of power, and 3 times in a row wiping on the very first little room from the devils that overwhelmed our lvl 16 toons.

Or how about something more recent? I remember walking into the lord of blades and the master artificer 3 times apiece, and each time the strategies and mechanics being infinitely more clearer. I remember avoiding epics for the longest time because I felt they intimidated me, until I felt I was ready to tackle them - and when I did, I flailed through them just like many of us did our first von 3.

If you cannot do these raids without being hand held and taught, how did the power gamers figure them out in the first place? Did these elitists power gamers complain that they spend hours and hours going in and wiping, just to figure out an effective strategy, using countless resources?

Best of all. Did any of these 'new players' bother to so much even check the forums for the countless threads discussing strategies / posting guides, even videos on how to do things?

People on this server know me as someone willing to teach and help newer players get on the raid trains. I'm not known for being an elitist snob, but I have to say - Nobody on this server is willing to help anyone who expects the help as a sense of entitlement.

The whole argument presented that new players need to be taught by veterans is nothing more than thinly veiled excuses. excuses that point fingers at veterans with the canned "It is your duty to teach me, and my duty to be carried so I can learn" sense of entitlement and attitude.

Both these raids are doable on normal with a pug. one or two attempts and you know what to expect, how to balance the group, and (maybe rough) idea of how to deal with everything thrown at you. Epic is still the same raid, only harder and less forgiving - forcing you to use very refined tactics and more resources (alot more if your tactics aren't up to par with the difficulty)

This is the fun part of the game, go out there and explore the new content, and ENJOY learning it - because once you know it, then it becomes nothing more of a routine farm every few days to keep your timers going.

The whole spirit of D&D is the DM crafting this elaborate adventure of challenges and obstacles for the group to enjoy figuring out. If your not willing to enjoy that aspect of the game - well, either find a different one that's easier, or join a guild that will spoonfeed you how to do everything.

[kailiea]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BWSN...2B223F826E4D07

Ohhh Yeah!

[Rawel_San]

I'm sorry but I do have to point out one thing. When you say we all had to figure out how to do the epic raids for the
first time (I use the word we very loosely since I was hand held through most/all of them) those raids were being
figured out at the original difficulty and they were (back then) scaled for the toons with GS and some raid gear.

They have now been rescaled for the people who have beat them at those difficulties and now HAVE the epic
gear. So if you are actually a new player that only has the GS they farmed out you will have to take on
EVelah with the new HP's and the new fort, same for EDQ, the same for EChrono. The same for Hard ToD even
though the last two have in my opinion had the least upgrade.

Is this an actual problem? I'm not sure, there is a lot of people with the epic gear and know how to run the
raids with little/no pots and they can for sure take a couple of newer people with "only" shroud items along.
But considering how long the grind for most of these epic items is (eSoS, eMari chain, heck even ToD rings)
the increased difficulty might really put a damper on it for some of the new people that don't get into channel
runs and have to pug ToD. I remember trying to get into pug ToD's, that completed, when I was in a small
guild and if I managed one in a week I was really lucky. More often I wouldn't get into one for a month at a time.

I am speaking from the position of someone that hasn't failed a Hard ToD since the update and sees little
actual difference, takes longer I guess but hey we just have our AC tanks or 300%+ heal amp tanks go in there
and the healers hardly have to heal at all, last time we completed with (admittedly an awesome healer) having
full sp after healing the Horoth tank on hard (without potting obviously). But yeah I'm not sure how the new up
and coming players will feel.

I personally enjoy the bigger challenge I'm excited at what happened to VoD, I love the new raids and their
difficulty even if they make me want to rage quit over my incompetence every other time I step in there.
I am absolutely for keeping the new raids at the difficulty they are now, and there is no doubt in my mind
that is good for the game.

I'm less excited about the fact that the old raids have had difficulty upped considerably yet there has been no
corresponding increase in drops. This is less an issue in the epic ones (since you HAVE to run them epic to get
epic gear) but a huge issue for the normal ones VoD/Shroud/ToD since the only thing it does is make
people not run them at high difficulties. I mean why would you try to run an elite VoD if you still get the
same 1 bard's cloak and 1 enlightened vestments, or elite shroud for that one bone?

Anyhow as a player that wants the difficulties of the raids to stay at their current new tier I still can fully
sympathize with players that are frustrated or disgruntled at the change. I think actually making raid loot
drop more often on higher difficulties (and I mean noticably more often, not as it is now where 1/2 of the
serious raiding population fully believes that hard gives better rewards then elite for half the raids) would
go a long way to addressing some of those grievances, while not making a huge difference in the game.

Just my 2 cents,
Rawel

[XbaileyX]

Saaaaaay I have a few epic raids to pike Bayleaf! I also have to flag my healer for the new raids....I think I am missing blown to bits

You know where to find me :P

[Bunker]

The only problem with difficult complex raids is there's no way for new players to learn what needs to be done at each point without experiencing it first in a group that knows. This has always been a problem in DDO, not being able to learn content because those who can do it, zerg it because they want fast completions, not be a tutor. If there were a way to examine the bosses special moves by talking to an NPC after you see them for the first time, this would help. Or just a short video showing the key things.

You want turbine to add in-game spoilers to quests?

I think you are missing out on one of the most exciting parts of playing a video game. And that is BEATING IT ON YOUR OWN MERITS!

Have you ever played any other video game? Did you have someone sitting next to you helping you win?

The extra bonus to a MMO is that you can learn what it takes to achieve success in a quest as a group. Spool your ideas together and find a solution.

I almost feel like this is a chicken/egg discussion. I mean, if there is no way for a new player to beat raids, how did they all get completed in the first place. All raids, all quests have been learned first, taught second. Not the other way around.

-Bunk

P.S. You want to read the game guide, watch the videos, read the spoilers, check the forums posts, go right ahead. I just think for any that does do this first before stepping into a new quest, is simply just missing out on a lot of fun, and a REAL challenge.

[K_0tiC]

I have mixed feelings.

I like a challenge. But I can't solo a challenge (not that I want to)...so I need help.
And I hate to discriminate. I want to take the first five(eleven) that join me and be able to complete.

I don't expect an easy completion... I don't mind a struggle. But I think that more often than not, I should be able to complete a quest with anyone of the appropriate lvl.

Old quests/raids: were lower lvl. They were not made for lvl 20s.
But because the rare loot is stil desireable, lvl 20s grind them often.

Now...these same griding 20s now have Epic gear....they complete older dungeans real fast....

So the devs decided to make them harder for those supermen.
Which....hurts the normal men....of the approrpriate lvl....who have not grinded for epic gear....
Which I think is wrong.


So on one hand I do want a challenge.
And I hate that the supermen can just get a new epic item every five minutes.....

But on the other hand, I want the game to still be completable by the average man.

Myself....I think I am above average. If not in gear, defiantely in experience....which makes a huge difference in how easy or hard a quest is.

And I do want a challenge.

But I want to bring the average guy with me...if he wants to play. And I want to be able to complete.....

without compromising my principles.


failing a quest is not fun.
But neither is grinding effortlessly to uberness.

So....caught in the middle..

Epics are actually easier to get them most think, that being said steer clear of desert epics and you should be able to make any other in game in a reasonable amount of time/completions.

Things like chrono items are super easy the non set items could be made in say 1-5runs scrolls are cheap to buy for those items too everyone gives away the seals and shards since they have 1-2 of each already sitting there or have crafted the items without need for anymore of them. I remember making my first chrono item within 7 days of returning to ddo most runs done pugging.

Most other epic content falls into the same grey area roughly 1-10runs some items are a bit tougher to get your hands on maybe 20 runs for a seal or abfew more red scales for a scroll the odd shard that wont turn up but even just running one toon a day for quests that take 20-40mins would eventually see you putting that piece together as epic. Sure when things first come out there a bit harder and people are unsure of how to approach them but when some have run those quests on that diffcultly into the 100s of times they can lead/guide/carry a group of 5 able body players through that quest without much resource usage if even any.

The only real epic grind is when your really bored/too much time on your hands then you start to chase things like desert epics. I counted my last seal I chased I opened well over 500 chests in search of the lion headed belt buckle seal not including others opening chests in my groups. And some of the scrolls took me countless hours to farm anywhere from 10-20hours spent killing afew mobs over and over can get pretty tedious. Not that its challenging in any means anyone can slow pull 1-2 mobs @ a time or range them and kite them etc you could even nuke them 1-2 @ a time with a low dc sorc and sooner or later your gonna get lucky and that scroll will drop.

Remember the challange is still there just now you have to be a bit more cautious on which difficulty you enter said quest depending on if its with 5/11 people you know well or 5/11 you have never ran with before, still dont see why you cant take the first 5/11 people as long as they fit the certain requirements per raid ie. afew healers/tanks/casters.

[K_0tiC]

I'm sorry but I do have to point out one thing. When you say we all had to figure out how to do the epic raids for the
first time (I use the word we very loosely since I was hand held through most/all of them) those raids were being
figured out at the original difficulty and they were (back then) scaled for the toons with GS and some raid gear.

They have now been rescaled for the people who have beat them at those difficulties and now HAVE the epic
gear. So if you are actually a new player that only has the GS they farmed out you will have to take on
EVelah with the new HP's and the new fort, same for EDQ, the same for EChrono. The same for Hard ToD even
though the last two have in my opinion had the least upgrade.

Is this an actual problem? I'm not sure, there is a lot of people with the epic gear and know how to run the
raids with little/no pots and they can for sure take a couple of newer people with "only" shroud items along.
But considering how long the grind for most of these epic items is (eSoS, eMari chain, heck even ToD rings)
the increased difficulty might really put a damper on it for some of the new people that don't get into channel
runs and have to pug ToD. I remember trying to get into pug ToD's, that completed, when I was in a small
guild and if I managed one in a week I was really lucky. More often I wouldn't get into one for a month at a time.

I am speaking from the position of someone that hasn't failed a Hard ToD since the update and sees little
actual difference, takes longer I guess but hey we just have our AC tanks or 300%+ heal amp tanks go in there
and the healers hardly have to heal at all, last time we completed with (admittedly an awesome healer) having
full sp after healing the Horoth tank on hard (without potting obviously). But yeah I'm not sure how the new up
and coming players will feel.

I personally enjoy the bigger challenge I'm excited at what happened to VoD, I love the new raids and their
difficulty even if they make me want to rage quit over my incompetence every other time I step in there.
I am absolutely for keeping the new raids at the difficulty they are now, and there is no doubt in my mind
that is good for the game.

I'm less excited about the fact that the old raids have had difficulty upped considerably yet there has been no
corresponding increase in drops. This is less an issue in the epic ones (since you HAVE to run them epic to get
epic gear) but a huge issue for the normal ones VoD/Shroud/ToD since the only thing it does is make
people not run them at high difficulties. I mean why would you try to run an elite VoD if you still get the
same 1 bard's cloak and 1 enlightened vestments, or elite shroud for that one bone?

Anyhow as a player that wants the difficulties of the raids to stay at their current new tier I still can fully
sympathize with players that are frustrated or disgruntled at the change. I think actually making raid loot
drop more often on higher difficulties (and I mean noticably more often, not as it is now where 1/2 of the
serious raiding population fully believes that hard gives better rewards then elite for half the raids) would
go a long way to addressing some of those grievances, while not making a huge difference in the game.

Just my 2 cents,
Rawel

Not having a go at you but id say 75% of people that are dpsing in epics arent doing it with epic weapons there are very few good dps epic options most are still using gs ls/minII or cannith crafted beaters thf of course are running around with esos but fort on bosses killed alot of that esos dps off.
Four seeker and +2 str mod would maybe wipe off afew mins IF everyone in that raid had it. The issue I see is as always people want instant gratifaction and now that gratifaction is taking longer then before imagine having 2mins of foreplay every night and now your wife wants 1hour?

[Rawel_San]

Not having a go at you but id say 75% of people that are dpsing in epics arent doing it with epic weapons there are very few good dps epic options most are still using gs ls/minII or cannith crafted beaters thf of course are running around with esos but fort on bosses killed alot of that esos dps off.
Four seeker and +2 str mod would maybe wipe off afew mins IF everyone in that raid had it. The issue I see is as always people want instant gratifaction and now that gratifaction is taking longer then before imagine having 2mins of foreplay every night and now your wife wants 1hour?

75% of which people? If you're talking about the raids I run in there are very few THF melees that don't have the
eSOS, and the one I can think of off hand is you know "at least" wearing an epic mari chain, epic claw set, and FB
set, Oh and I forgot also 3 piece abishai . I haven't tried a pug raid since U11, maybe I'm overestimating how
much of an impact it will have on the new players and maybe they can just jump in after getting shroud+tod
gear. It just doesn't quite feel like it.

The one thing I know for sure is there has been a great jump in screening for most raids run. Is that good?
Depends for who. As I said I love the new raids that came out. I think their difficulty is spot on. I don't think
the upgrade to the old raids was a great idea the way it was done, even though I do love what happened
to VoD for example. Upgrade the drop rates for the non epic raids on the harder difficulties and reconsider
the drop rates for the epic raids as well.

I know it's not a great idea for every toon to be running around with an eSOS but the trouble is changing these
things in mid stream will engender resentment. Why should it have been easier for me to farm my eSoS shard
just because I played the game earlier?

EDIT: I just want to make it crystal clear I'm not arguing for the raids to be toned down or brought to before U11 levels. I'm arguing
that there is a very definite reason for new players to feel at least slightly shafted by this. I'm also arguing that bigger risk should equal
bigger reward. Be it for the harder difficulties of the non epic raids or the new ramped up epic difficulty of epic raids.

One thing I would absolutely want to see (but will never happen) is having loot drops be affected by the number of (store) pots drunk.
The more (store) pots you drink the less loot you get. This would mean you couldn't "drink" your way to better loot drops you would actually have
to come up with better strategies.

[K_0tiC]

75% of which people? If you're talking about the raids I run in there are very few THF melees that don't have the
eSOS, and the one I can think of off hand is you know "at least" wearing an epic mari chain, epic claw set, and FB
set, Oh and I forgot also 3 piece abishai . I haven't tried a pug raid since U11, maybe I'm overestimating how
much of an impact it will have on the new players and maybe they can just jump in after getting shroud+tod
gear. It just doesn't quite feel like it.

The one thing I know for sure is there has been a great jump in screening for most raids run. Is that good?
Depends for who. As I said I love the new raids that came out. I think their difficulty is spot on. I don't think
the upgrade to the old raids was a great idea the way it was done, even though I do love what happened
to VoD for example. Upgrade the drop rates for the non epic raids on the harder difficulties and reconsider
the drop rates for the epic raids as well.

I know it's not a great idea for every toon to be running around with an eSOS but the trouble is changing these
things in mid stream will engender resentment. Why should it have been easier for me to farm my eSoS shard
just because I played the game earlier?

EDIT: I just want to make it crystal clear I'm not arguing for the raids to be toned down or brought to before U11 levels. I'm arguing
that there is a very definite reason for new players to feel at least slightly shafted by this. I'm also arguing that bigger risk should equal
bigger reward. Be it for the harder difficulties of the non epic raids or the new ramped up epic difficulty of epic raids.

One thing I would absolutely want to see (but will never happen) is having loot drops be affected by the number of (store) pots drunk.
The more (store) pots you drink the less loot you get. This would mean you couldn't "drink" your way to better loot drops you would actually have
to come up with better strategies.

Esos has been nerfed probably 2nd to rogues with the huge fort jump. Epic raids should require some screening if your still wearing korthos gear and a +1 vendor trash of vendoring people shouldnt be required to drink pots or use other resources on your lazy behalf. Ive pugged plenty of non screened chronos and the worst of it is the 2 healers might have to dd one time to go use a shrine one after the other and it just takes 5-10mins longer its not like you have to drink 20pots to get the same stuff done it takes maybe 5-10mins longer in most cases if your entering with the same kind of geared toons as pre u11 so I dont see why theres so much complaining. Im glad raids and epics have been less trivalized it was getting pretty boring there for awhile I hope we get much more content towards lob style diffculty.

New players have no need to feel anything they are new how they experience it is how it is worrying about how he got it or did it wont impact on them in any way shape or form all they get is a easier run from having more experienced players with better gear making the runs go faster for them. The increases to diffculty were long over due, I could pug 5 echronos 30mins~ each nightly with any 8 random ppl a tank, 2 healers and good caster the difference in dps from the 8 others would mean the difference of 1-5mins length depending on there gear/build type nothing game breaking or pot drinking, so if raids were that trival it was long over due and we all need to consider it better for the game not worse as it will keep us playing longer/grinding longer because those of us that choose to play end game that is what we are looking for challenges/long term goals not boring 5minute long easy quests.

And I hate to say it but everyone is commenting for new players im yet to see someone with less then one year under there forum name complain that its too hard/long/expensive for them to get there epic raids done, most people that have been playing that long are still busy learning the games ins and outs and working on the basics like greensteel not worrying about chasing sos shards for there 5th toon and another epic chrono set.

[kailiea]

Not having a go at you but id say 75% of people that are dpsing in epics arent doing it with epic weapons there are very few good dps epic options most are still using gs ls/minII or cannith crafted beaters thf of course are running around with esos but fort on bosses killed alot of that esos dps off.
Four seeker and +2 str mod would maybe wipe off afew mins IF everyone in that raid had it. The issue I see is as always people want instant gratifaction and now that gratifaction is taking longer then before imagine having 2mins of foreplay every night and now your wife wants 1hour?

I don't know if most people realize this but by having a dark monk cast his triple dark finisher or fighters and other classes using improved sunder you can remove some of that extra fort. Granted it is not much but a revision in tactics is needed and people have to realize that.

[Rawel_San]

<snip> Ive pugged plenty of non screened chronos and the worst of it is the 2 healers might have to dd one time to go use a shrine one after the other and it just takes 5-10mins longer its not like you have to drink 20pots to get the same stuff done it takes maybe 5-10mins longer in most cases if your entering with the same kind of geared toons as pre u11 so I dont see why theres so much complaining. Im glad raids and epics have been less trivalized it was getting pretty boring there for awhile I hope we get much more content towards lob style diffculty.

<snip>

Any chance the past continuous tense in the bolded part implies that it wasn't ALWAYS that boring? Maybe
it got more boring as it got easier as your toons geared up?

Also when you say you've pugged plenty of non screened chronos, you mean post u11? Because if so you're
either extremely lucky, don't know what screening was done, or are just (to put it bluntly) making it up and
counting groups where you pugged 2 spots out of channel/guild as pug groups. I'm sure you might be extremely
lucky especially with the fact there is so few epic raids run right now it's very easy to have your group fill
with people with the same gear/experience just owing to the fact it's your name in the leader role. I know I
screen lfm's I join based on guild tags/knowing the leader 9 times out of 10. With there being fewer epic
raids run as everyone works on ma/lob/cc in guild it's easy to get your pick of the top raiders IF they know you.