FvS bollocks.

[Matuse]

Your Archon, from what I've heard on the forums, is about 15 DPS.

No. Bog-standard, it is a bit over 20, and that's without crits or any light amp curse that a target may get.

Additionally, light curse raises the damage on Radiance, Holy (Burst), Anarchic (Burst), Axiomatic (Burst) weapons swung by anyone.

[AtomicMew]

~

Not only is your math wrong, but it shows exactly what I said, that the archon makes up the difference immediately. Your math, which I reiterate is wrong, shows that the archon does in fact make up the difference more or less.

Secondly, you're pettyfogging. By that, I mean you've focused on the absolute LEAST important point in this discussion, when the major point is that the FvS brings way more DPS to the group by way of crown debuff, which practically speaking, stacks with every other FvS crown debuff. There is no point in which taking a cleric over a FvS would increase a groups damage output in a raid setting.

[riskmal]

Here's the general thing:

When soloing, the Favored Soul has the casting advantage due to their debuff, and bonus damage on their spells. This is a certain given.

When soloing, the Cleric has the melee advantage for many reasons. One being the ability to splash three levels without losing anything major- the second being Divine Might, and the third being their RS aura. Fourth advantage Clerics have when running solo is their Empower Healing metamagic gives a 75% boost on the major spell they'll be using: Heal. Favored Souls get a mere 50% boost from this powerful metamagic.


When grouped, with only one divine, the Favored Soul has the advantage of his debuff and bonus damage.

With two divines, both Favored Souls, you'd be better off with a Cleric because the debuffs do not stack.

With one divine, a Cleric, you will have better healing in the majority of cases due to the RS PrE. The aura provides a lot of healing, generally enough for most trash mobs. Bursts cover the rest of the trash mob damage,.

With two divines, both Clerics, nobody is stepping on the other's toes. Both get the bonus damage on DP from their bonus caster levels, and both auras are used, resulting in about 50 hp every two seconds being healed.

However, when you have two divines, one a Favored Soul and one a Cleric, the Cleric WILL outpreform the Favored Soul. In melee, the Cleric has more damage due to the reasons above. In offensive casting, the Cleric's +1 on the DC over the Soul benefits from the FvS's debuff. The two bonus caster levels on Divine Punishment benefit greatly when the debuff is added. Plus the Radiant Servant aura provides more healing than the CLW capstone does. Face it, more hp are gained back with an aura than the capstone- although the capstone is single-target and the aura is mass.

In that party, the Soul will be playing second fiddle to the Cleric in EVERY ASPECT. The Cleric outheals the Soul, he will outcast and outdamage the soul with spells, and has better melee.


I'm sorry to offend you Soulists, but the Cleric *is* superior in the main case where it matters: group settings. No toe-stepping, just straight-up better. However, your Souls are better soloers. Guess that's why nobody solos ADQ1 with their Cleric. They're a team player, unlike many Souls.

You completely misunderstood the point of this thread and I don't give a **** about these comments of yours, no offense. For me, you're some kind of FvS hater and I've no idea why. In melee, the cleric has more dmg? You're dillusional... Who even cares about melee on a cleric...

I was playing FvS even before the new PrE and before DoTs additions. I had no problem healing any raid and I didn't even have empower healing. Healing raids is one of the easiest thing in this game and for me cleric's advantages in healing mean nothing for me.

I consider this thread as closed since people can't comment the main subject and make off topics.

[K_0tiC]

Dont be side tracked by all the irrelevent posts either squelch them or just read whats important

Im doing something simular @ the moment with my fvs what feats will you choose finally life im torn between 1 extra evo and 1 extra necro, so far looks like this: toughness/emp/maxi/wiz pl/heighten/quicken/shield mastery/ necro or evo focus? possibility to drop toughness and take another focus and still be 550~600ish hp unbuffed.

Glad I dont have the issue your having im only sitting on a 3wisdom tome ;p.
So 44wisdom will give me 17mod+10+9+2item+3sorc pl+1wiz pl= 42 evo dc and a 39necro. So 43evo or 40 necro? Thinking the necro since 40+ a energy drain 42-48dc should cover most intant killable mobs.
First life fvs, doing 2x wizard 3x sorc back to fvs. Gives me 20 spell pen +4wizpl +1fvs pl+2enhancements+2epic greenblade= 29 + 2aura when close to stuff.

[riskmal]

Dont be side tracked by all the irrelevent posts either squelch them or just read whats important

Im doing something simular @ the moment with my fvs what feats will you choose finally life im torn between 1 extra evo and 1 extra necro, so far looks like this: toughness/emp/maxi/wiz pl/heighten/quicken/shield mastery/ necro or evo focus? possibility to drop toughness and take another focus and still be 550~600ish hp unbuffed.

Glad I dont have the issue your having im only sitting on a 3wisdom tome ;p.
So 44wisdom will give me 17mod+10+9+2item+3sorc pl+1wiz pl= 42 evo dc and a 39necro. So 43evo or 40 necro? Thinking the necro since 40+ a energy drain 42-48dc should cover most intant killable mobs.
First life fvs, doing 2x wizard 3x sorc back to fvs. Gives me 20 spell pen +4wizpl +1fvs pl+2enhancements+2epic greenblade= 29 + 2aura when close to stuff.

I'm taking necro focus for better debuff DC (doom, curse) and instant kill spells (destro, slay living) since there is no PL that gives bonus to necro. Evocation will be solid just with sorc's past lives so it's not that important to spend feats on it (you can also craft greater evocation trinket as someone else suggested in this thread). If you'll come to a situation when you kite spiders or cats, simply debuff them (energy drain first if needed) and watch them die to your blades

The other feats stay identical.

Cheers man and good luck with TR'ing

[Habreno]

Not only is your math wrong, but it shows exactly what I said, that the archon makes up the difference immediately. Your math, which I reiterate is wrong, shows that the archon does in fact make up the difference more or less.

Secondly, you're pettyfogging. By that, I mean you've focused on the absolute LEAST important point in this discussion, when the major point is that the FvS brings way more DPS to the group by way of crown debuff, which practically speaking, stacks with every other FvS crown debuff. There is no point in which taking a cleric over a FvS would increase a groups damage output in a raid setting.

How exactly is my math "wrong"? Just because you say so doesn't make it true- and I am a very skilled person when it comes to math, and am actually very rarely wrong. What I did was calculate the DPS of two bonus caster levels. I will now ask for the DPS on the Archon, fully explained as I did myself.

Also, it's not a minor argument when the other side brings something up. I merely defended the position- you are saying the DPS of the Archon makes up the difference, and I have given numbers which are backed by mathematics, coupled with numbers I am seeing on the forums quite frequently by FvS touters for the Archon- and am drawing a conclusion that the Archon is out-DPSed by the two bonus caster levels at top play, and is ahead by only a quarter of a point per second with only mediocore gearing. If you want to, I will post how I had come up with the average damage with the crits, however I had (probably incorrectly) assumed it would be logical to take the crit damage, multiplied by the crit percentage, and then take the base damage times the non-crit percentage, and divide by 100. I never figured every single detail had to be typed out because I assume that certain things are "known" and taking averages should be one of them.

You may counter with the statement that 1 DPS is very minor. However, is it really when every melee goes after each and every point of damage? Is 1 damage that minor that nearly every end-game melee goes after each and every damage effect simply to gain, maybe 1-2 points of damage per swing? It's hard to say "minor" when it is clearly by end-game major.

Therefore, prove your math, prove my math is wrong, or face the fact that the two caster levels brings more to the table than the Archon does. Because until you prove otherwise, I have proved it is true.

Also, I am not a "hater" as you have determined. I play a Cleric, and have a Favored Soul I play as well. I also play melees- so I know where that stands too. I am not "hating" but merely providing insight some fail to see becuase they have this egotism about Favored Souls. I could quote several posts on that matter but will leave it at that.

[Habreno]

No. Bog-standard, it is a bit over 20, and that's without crits or any light amp curse that a target may get.

Additionally, light curse raises the damage on Radiance, Holy (Burst), Anarchic (Burst), Axiomatic (Burst) weapons swung by anyone.

Apoligise about being wrong- I was merely quoting something from what I've read on the forums. Please do post the math for the Archon so that I know for the future. Preferably with and without the debuff- so we have some equal comparison grounds (debuffed enemies and non-debuffed enemies)- and I will add another post for the with-crit average DPS with debuff.

Amoung those four, it should only affect the Radiance. Holy (Burst) should be Good damage, Anarchic (Burst) should be Chaotic, and Axiomatic (Burst) should be Lawful. Of course, knowing Turbine, I'm probably incorrect in some way/shape/form here.

[MyHumps]

Your math is wrong because the damage from the debuff is way more than 2d6+2 in any case whatsoever. Not to mention the favored soul is still ahead by one dc, and that's what really matters. DP is not the only spell in the game and ONLY matters in boss fights. Even if a cleric were to excel in DP on bosses then they fall behind on every aspect with divines and every other aspect of the game. I'm sorry but the argument between the capstone and the aura is also extremely stupid. 10/dr is way more than whatever psuedo-dr you're getting from the aura.

So lets review
clerics fall behind on DR
clerics fall behind on DP unless there is a favored soul in the party. Then they are ahead BECAUSE of the favored soul.
clerics fall behind on DCs because debuff from favored soul puts them ahead by 1 dc.

What are the benefits of the cleric? They do more damage than a favored soul in one situation in the game? (A cleric being in the party)

What are the disadvantages of a favored soul? They do less damage on dp if a cleric is in the party?

[Matuse]

Apoligise about being wrong- I was merely quoting something from what I've read on the forums. Please do post the math for the Archon so that I know for the future.

With Smiting III, it hits for about 45 points every 2 seconds. It varies, but that's typical. I think the best non-crit, non-amped hit it will do is around 60. With Smiting IV, that will go up a bit.

Amoung those four, it should only affect the Radiance. Holy (Burst) should be Good damage, Anarchic (Burst) should be Chaotic, and Axiomatic (Burst) should be Lawful. Of course, knowing Turbine, I'm probably incorrect in some way/shape/form here.

The ability raises vulnerability to LIGHT and ALIGNMENT damage. In the same way that an Air Savant turns a Lit II weapon into the Host's own vengeance, AoV light curse beefs basically everyone swinging a pointed stick.

[AtomicMew]

How exactly is my math "wrong"? Just because you say so doesn't make it true- and I am a very skilled person when it comes to math, and am actually very rarely wrong. What I did was calculate the DPS of two bonus caster levels. I will now ask for the DPS on the Archon, fully explained as I did myself.

When I say your math is wrong, I don't mean that you multiplied two and two incorrectly, I mean that the assumptions behind your math are wrong. Being able to perform mathematical operations is different than having sound logic behind those operations.

1) You just pulled a number out of thin air for Archon DPS, and its wrong.

2) You didn't include ramp up time. When you're dealing with differences of 1-2 DPS, ramp up DPS is significant. Archon has zero ramp up time because it's a 5 minute pre-cast. Dots have ~20 seconds of ramp up time.

3) You never bothered to do any real DPS testing. Your DPS numbers are flat out wrong by about 12-15%, due to loss of one tick every cycle which you didn't account for.

Now before you go back and waste time trying to correct the math, let me re-iterate once again that THIS IS PETTYFOGGING. Not only was your math incorrect (in actuality, Archon does put FvS ahead), it came to the conclusion in agreement with the statement that "Archon makes up the difference" and on top of that, is actually completely irrelevant to the reason people are saying that FvS bring more group DPS than clerics. There are multiple layers of reasoning here why your argument is fallacious. I've shown you that your argument is factually incorrect, contextually incorrect and also irrelevant.

If you understand any of these points I've made, it should be clear why you should abandon your argument, even if you don't agree with everything I'm saying. Pick your poison.

I am not "hating" but merely providing insight some fail to see becuase they have this egotism about Favored Souls. I could quote several posts on that matter but will leave it at that.

Insofar as any player has egoism about this game and their toons, it's obvious why people get offended when others spout off fallacies about their characters in relation to other characters.

[Habreno]

I pulled a number from my memory of the forums, and actually provided the two I saw the most: 15 and 20. I did say that I did not know what the actual value was, nor the math behind it, and invited the math to be shown because I did not know the exact value. I never said "This is what the Archon does", I merely said that "This is what I have read of the Archon doing, and would appreciate the math on it".

You are correct about ramp-up time. That does play a factor. However, the last tick is not something that should be excluded, as it is possible to get all 8 ticks out of the spell before the refresh.

You mention it is pettyfogging, however it's not when it is something you brought up. And if it wasn't you specifically, then it was someone on the same side of the debate. If it is truly pettyfogging, why was it brought up at all? I said that a Cleric will do more damage with DP than a Favored Soul, with equal factors, due to the bonus caster levels. Someone had then mentioned that the Archon removes this advantage- and it is decently equal.

If the debuff does raise both light and alignment damage, then I am mistaken, and sorry about that. Most people focus on the light debuff and the alignment aspect gets forgotten.


Also never said anything about DR. Said that the Aura provides more HEALING than the capstone does- but also credit the capstone to being single-target vs the aura's mass effect.


About DP, and DC's: Yes, the Favored Soul is ahead without a Cleric in the party. I believe I posted this specifically on Page 6 (10 posts/page format)- however did say that the Cleric has the advantage due to the Favored Soul providing the debuffs, with both in the party. And quite honestly, it's a group game. It'd be almost as if a Paladin tried to AC tank in Epics without a party. They couldn't get a high enough AC to do it. They need the party to provide certain buffs which are incredibly hard to get otherwise- or sacrafice gear slots to them, thus lowering their DPS. With a party, the Paladin need not use their gear slots for AC boosts, and can use the available buffs for more AC and get more damage than he can solo.
Now, does this make AC Paladins bad, because they need some outside buffs to do what they do? No. People are willing to help out and buff the Paladin so that the entire run goes smoother. Is it not unreasonable to ask the Favored Soul to take a small sacrafice and let the Cleric do the damage with their improved DP and take a step back and heal, with the Archon plugging away, while the Cleric is in the melee with his aura running and his weapons swinging? After all, unlike the Cleric aura, the Favored Soul debuff is not a self-only target. Give a bit to help the party more. To not do so is why you solo.


I'm going to end this post by saying that yes, straight up, a Cleric is outcast by a Favored Soul and their spell damage and instakills are lower. However, a Cleric will outheal your Favored Soul and will do more melee damage in the majority of cases, while still having the same healing power. However, when the one person gives up their DPS and lets someone better at DPS take the casting, thanks to their buffs, both parties should feel useful. The Cleric should thank the Favored Soul for taking over healing duties with their adequate healing for 99% of content and tossing their debuff on the main tank, so the Cleric can make the most use of their extra caster levels and do more DP damage than the Favored Soul does. Teamwork. Have we as a community of divines forgotten what this means?

[Matuse]

However, a Cleric will outheal your Favored Soul and will do more melee damage in the majority of cases

Which remains nonsense, since to get really high damage, a cleric needs to invest into a very high Charisma, which FvS can safely dump. High Wis, High Str, High Cha? Not happening. Not to the degree of offsetting the +4 that FvS get on their favored weapon.

Plus, clerics have fewer feats to invest in melee. They are almost obligated to take both mental toughness feats...Mental Toughness x2, Regular Toughness, Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Empower Healing...there's 7 feats down, only a human gets even the option of one more. Where are you fitting in Imp Crit, Power Attack, TWF, etc? Nowhere.

[AtomicMew]

About DP, and DC's: Yes, the Favored Soul is ahead without a Cleric in the party. I believe I posted this specifically on Page 6 (10 posts/page format)- however did say that the Cleric has the advantage due to the Favored Soul providing the debuffs, with both in the party.

The debuffs stack. Having two FvS in the party is more DPS than having a FVS and a cleric. There is no point in which taking a cleric over a FvS would increase a groups damage output in a raid setting.

You mention it is pettyfogging, however it's not when it is something you brought up. And if it wasn't you specifically, then it was someone on the same side of the debate.

It was brought up that FVS bring more DPS than clerics. You (or someone) countered that clerics have +2 caster levels on DP. I then stated that archon makes up the difference (as an aside), but the point of my post was clearly to emphasize the fact that the crown debuff means the FVS is bringing an entirely different LEAGUE of DPS to the table.

You then decided to focus on the point about the archon. Hence, pettyfogging.

[MyHumps]

I just wanna say as an aside... If the trend for making over powered pres continues I can't wait till I see the next cleric pre.

[MyHumps]

Sigh

[SirValentine]

to get really high damage, a cleric needs to invest into a very high Charisma, which FvS can safely dump. High Wis, High Str, High Cha? Not happening. Not to the degree of offsetting the +4 that FvS get on their favored weapon.

I wasn't the one claiming Cleric was better or did higher DPS, but a Cleric doesn't need high Wis for either melee or DP damage. They could dump Wis, take a moderate Cha, and high Str, and still have awesome DP and melee DPS. Of course their DCs would suffer for it, but they might not care.

Plus, clerics have fewer feats to invest in melee. They are almost obligated to take both mental toughness feats...Mental Toughness x2

Wow...there are Clerics other than gimped healbots or clueless newbies who waste precious feats on Mental Toughness? x2 even?!? Where? And who "obligated" them to do so?

It's kind of the opposite on feats, really. Because FvS loses so much if they don't stay pure, they can't as easily pick up extra feats the way a Clr can by splashing.

[Habreno]

The debuffs stack. Having two FvS in the party is more DPS than having a FVS and a cleric. There is no point in which taking a cleric over a FvS would increase a groups damage output in a raid setting.


It was brought up that FVS bring more DPS than clerics. You (or someone) countered that clerics have +2 caster levels on DP. I then stated that archon makes up the difference (as an aside), but the point of my post was clearly to emphasize the fact that the crown debuff means the FVS is bringing an entirely different LEAGUE of DPS to the table.

You then decided to focus on the point about the archon. Hence, pettyfogging.

Already adressed the debuff in several posts prior. It is, in the end, a debuff that affects everyone. Clerics benefit from it more than Favored Souls do, due to having more WIS and more CL on DP. Therefore, with your debuff a Cleric has a higher DC and more damage than your Favored Soul. Yes, I know about your Archon, but you really want to do inferior DPS and make me heal when I could do more DPS, you could still have your Archon firing, and you could heal while I toggle my aura to keep the party healed more while I'm in the melee dealing melee DPS, spell DPS, and healing, and have you heal from the outside with your debuff centered on the tank. Really, is that *not* the most optimal way to run the two classes together?

[thewalex]

I wasn't the one claiming Cleric was better or did higher DPS, but a Cleric doesn't need high Wis for either melee or DP damage. They could dump Wis, take a moderate Cha, and high Str, and still have awesome DP and melee DPS. Of course their DCs would suffer for it, but they might not care.

Which is why I think Matuse and I are still confused how a cleric could both have this trifecta "unattainable and incomparable higher wisdom/DCs that a favored soul cannot," "outperform a FvS in all aspects of healing" and "still provide significantly better melee DPS." I agree with a significant contingent of the community that first/second life Clerics and FvS can have two of these areas but not all three. In an effort to stop feeding the troll, a lot comes down to personal preference. It will depend on builds and your niche in your party (or solo play). Having capped both a Cleric and a FvS, I have one that I kept and one that I TRed.

One was too **** slow.

[Matuse]

I wasn't the one claiming Cleric was better or did higher DPS, but a Cleric doesn't need high Wis for either melee or DP damage.

No, but they do need it for spell access and spellpoints. A melee focused FvS can dump both Wis and Cha (and I mean dump them for real...8 base). A cleric cannot realistically do so.

Wow...there are Clerics other than gimped healbots or clueless newbies who waste precious feats on Mental Toughness? x2 even?!? Where? And who "obligated" them to do so?

Taking mental toughness does not make you a healbot. Spellpoints are the grease that gets the clerical wheels rolling. Mental Toughness x2 is 210 SP. Just enough to offset the bonus a FvS gets for carrying an archmagi item.

And an obligation is something you put on yourself.

It's kind of the opposite on feats, really. Because FvS loses so much if they don't stay pure, they can't as easily pick up extra feats the way a Clr can by splashing.

I think splashing either class is a huge mistake. Thus I also believe that bringing in other class benefits is totally irrelevant.

[AtomicMew]

Already adressed the debuff in several posts prior. It is, in the end, a debuff that affects everyone. Clerics benefit from it more than Favored Souls do, due to having more WIS and more CL on DP. Therefore, with your debuff a Cleric has a higher DC and more damage than your Favored Soul.

Two FvS, having 100% more stacking buffs, do more damage than a Cleric and a FvS.

Three FvS, having 50% more stacking debuff, do more damage than two FvS and a cleric.

Do you understand this point? A FvS will always increase a groups damage more than a cleric would by a very large amount. As far as DPS goes, it is always better to bring a FvS than a cleric.