FvS bollocks.

[erikbozelie]

nooooooo this is turning into <another> fvs versus cleric thing.

~spwise~ - fvs wins by raw 350-ish spell points... yeah thats the difference.
~total sp~ - cleric wins by 6500 versus 3500(not including sp regen items / not joking).

~melee dps~. melee wise. an fvs will not be capable of catching up. (the archon nuking for 1 whole min, is an decent cleric meleeing for 4 seconds).
~spell dps~ - this is very importent. and one of the few ones still not bustable. the debuff helps a bit. this is what made fvs great. and was nerved last update. 50% on DP.
~wings~ - okay.... yeah.. nerved last update. still sweet.
~healing power~ - cleric radient bumbs empower healing for free.
~survivability~ - cleric better in nonepic, fvs better in epic.

other versus topics have already been taken down,for example the free fvs cure light wounds is equal to aura hitting on 3 people... for free. dont need to do anything for it other then to press an button.

i would suggest reading the topic here
which explains most of the stuff with math etc.(only from the cleric side. fvs are only spouting random nonesence they cant backup) please do not do the same on here.

the only thing that made fvs great where wings and debuff, and got nerved last update.

i am not trying to get this into "another" versus thread although some people already done so.
if you want to call disbeliever on me. then read that entire thread, and make me an fvs build that busts the 2 clerical builds on there that have been posted as an fvs chalange.

ill tell you in advance you wont be able to.

--------------as for the orignal post---------------
nice wisdom, looks good, you forgot ship buffs and yugo pots. that should bumb your dc up by 2.
theres also store pots and house D pots combined with cookies. but that is not really sustainable is it? .

keep up the good work

[riskmal]

Just to make it clear...
I have never said clerics are worse than fvs or they can't do anything else than stand behind the group and toss heals... (like some guy in a raid group I was in said a few days ago, which made me really annoyed btw). Clerics can still do buttloads of dmg via bb and dp (better than FvS? no matter), as well as other spells. They have their auras and bursts, they can even make decent melees if well planned. I'm just saying FvS fits my playstyle better. I like having more spell points and more DR along with wings. It helps alot when soloing tougher quests, including epics (which was the reason I started to work on past lives). I also have a lvl20 Cleric and what I can say is that Clerics are just as helpful as FvS. After u10 they can instant kill just as well as FvS, but they're not as good soloers. That's why I picked FvS.

P.S. It wasn't my intention to turn this topic into FvS vs. Clr battle. I respect both of these classes.

Cheers.

[AtomicMew]

stuff

This, coming from someone who posted a 17 cleric/2 FvS/1 sorc and who said that a clonk can break 500 DPS after being proven conclusively wrong.

Spouting off nonsense that clerics have effective 6500 SP by arbitrary measures is silly. One can easily take other arbitrary measures and say that a FvS has effective 15,000 SP. But that's a stupid and godawful way of comparison, since it illuminates nothing.

U9 AoV changes clearly made the FvS more potent in solo play. With the changes to fortification U11, my opinion is that the importance of the FvS debuff has only increased in team play. In a full raid, a FvS will ALWAYS out-DPS any cleric by virtue of the AoV crown. Take a look at the achievement sections and compare the number of FvS to clerics. Quite a number of veteran players are running their FvS toons to completionist, and almost none are doing so for clerics.

I won't go so far to say that FvS are strictly better than clerics, but you are constantly overestimating the power of a cleric while underestimating the FvS, and dragging threads through the mud in the process, with this "clerics have over 9000 SP" silliness.

[erikbozelie]

Just to make it clear...

P.S. It wasn't my intention to turn this topic into FvS vs. Clr battle. I respect both of these classes.

Cheers.

nah is fine. just cleric vs fvs have been done way too many times.
anyway you should be capable of getting an 50+ wisdom on an fvs. just wont be maintanable.

1 level of monk splash would grand another 2 wisdom off an stance. but would kill allot of fvs abilities.

i think 45 will be the best youl be able to get.

[riskmal]

cleric vs fvs have been done way too many times.

Not by me, though

There is no point comparing them. Both got their advantages and disadvantages. Both are fun to play and helpful in end game and none should argue about it. It's your call which one to choose for your divine caster. Try them out and decide like I did. This is call I've got to say about it.

[SirValentine]

You deal 30% more damage with AoV

On BB, which is very nice. But not DP.

not including the proc from shield of condemnation which has the capability of increase your damage 50%

On DP, but that doesn't apply to BB. One on one, one on the other. You don't get both on either.

and effectively have +2 dc against everything.

Well...half cancelled out by Cleric higher Wisdom. And not everything, only things you wait until they get within your aura range. Some might prefer to be taking out things like beholders, epic caster mobs, etc., as soon as they see them, rather wait for them to come within debuff range. Or is the debuff range just as big as the spell-casting range of, say, Destruction?

Clerics are inferior to favored souls in regards to divine casting.

FvS have some very nice things. AoV is incredible. (I really am jealous of that +30% on BB.) Wings, DR, a bit more SP, are all good. But Clerics have advantages of their own.

The spell flexibility on a Cleric alone is awesome. The continous free healing via aura helps make up for the difference in SP pool. The higher DC for "everything", not just things at close range, helps.

Play what you like, there's good reasons for either. And no need to get hostile and insulting.

[erikbozelie]

ive already given you the math to backup the cleric on that thread and youve given me the fvs(sortof) one.

yes the debuff is great. never said otherwise. but i also wroten down spell dps and melee dps in seperate sections. most of which an fvs wont beat. wont beat spell endurance, nor will it in survivability in non epic.

only thing that was left standing where wings and debuff both of which where nerved last update.
can we stick to the op or are you also going to continue in here?

Not by me, though

There is no point comparing them. Both got their advantages and disadvantages. Both are fun to play and helpful in end game and none should argue about it. It's your call which one to choose for your divine caster. Try them out and decide like I did. This is call I've got to say about it.

agreed.

[MyHumps]

On BB, which is very nice. But not DP.

There are more than 2 divine spells in the game.

On DP, but that doesn't apply to BB. One on one, one on the other. You don't get both on either.

Show me an instance when you'll use both outside of soloing a raid boss. If you are soloing an endboss then show me an instance where they won't be getting a condemnation proc.

Well...half cancelled out by Cleric higher Wisdom. And not everything, only things you wait until they get within your aura range. Some might prefer to be taking out things like beholders, epic caster mobs, etc., as soon as they see them, rather wait for them to come within debuff range. Or is the debuff range just as big as the spell-casting range of, say, Destruction?

Beholder antimagic rays can be avoided. There are almost no beholders at endgame. Epic caster mobs are almost always nearly without debuff range.

FvS have some very nice things. AoV is incredible. (I really am jealous of that +30% on BB.) Wings, DR, a bit more SP, are all good. But Clerics have advantages of their own.

The spell flexibility on a Cleric alone is awesome. The continous free healing via aura helps make up for the difference in SP pool. The higher DC for "everything", not just things at close range, helps.

+1 dc for the rare occasion you want to cast destruction a hundred miles away from yourself is hardly a benefit lol.

Play what you like, there's good reasons for either. And no need to get hostile and insulting.

I was neither hostile or insulting. But thanks for your input. I still see absolutely no reason to play a cleric at endgame other than the radiant servent aura looks kind of cool.

[MyHumps]

nooooooo this is turning into <another> fvs versus cleric thing.

~spwise~ - fvs wins by raw 350-ish spell points... yeah thats the difference.
~total sp~ - cleric wins by 6500 versus 3500(not including sp regen items / not joking).

~melee dps~. melee wise. an fvs will not be capable of catching up. (the archon nuking for 1 whole min, is an decent cleric meleeing for 4 seconds).
~spell dps~ - this is very importent. and one of the few ones still not bustable. the debuff helps a bit. this is what made fvs great. and was nerved last update. 50% on DP.
~wings~ - okay.... yeah.. nerved last update. still sweet.
~healing power~ - cleric radient bumbs empower healing for free.
~survivability~ - cleric better in nonepic, fvs better in epic.

other versus topics have already been taken down,for example the free fvs cure light wounds is equal to aura hitting on 3 people... for free. dont need to do anything for it other then to press an button.

i would suggest reading the topic here
which explains most of the stuff with math etc.(only from the cleric side. fvs are only spouting random nonesence they cant backup) please do not do the same on here.

the only thing that made fvs great where wings and debuff, and got nerved last update.

i am not trying to get this into "another" versus thread although some people already done so.
if you want to call disbeliever on me. then read that entire thread, and make me an fvs build that busts the 2 clerical builds on there that have been posted as an fvs chalange.

ill tell you in advance you wont be able to.

--------------as for the orignal post---------------
nice wisdom, looks good, you forgot ship buffs and yugo pots. that should bumb your dc up by 2.
theres also store pots and house D pots combined with cookies. but that is not really sustainable is it? .

keep up the good work

Read half of it, gave up due to inaccuracies. Only thing that's correct is that clerics cause more damage with DP if a favored soul didn't get a shield proc and clerics can heal better. Not sure how an aura beats 10dr, wings (even nerfed) and inherent resists though... Maybe I'm missing something?

Nah, probably not.

[ShadowFlash]

Read half of it, gave up due to inaccuracies. Only thing that's correct is that clerics cause more damage with DP if a favored soul didn't get a shield proc and clerics can heal better. Not sure how an aura beats 10dr, wings (even nerfed) and inherent resists though... Maybe I'm missing something?

Nah, probably not.

I don't agree with a lot in that other ridiculous thread (and I love me my cleric), but I think of my aura like a free party DR too. While DR is superior, as you never take that 10 damage, an aura can in fact be superior for damage mitigation as long as it ticks for greater than 20, which most RS's do. A cleric also has to be able to take 2 seconds of damage before the RS aura heals it, resulting in a bouncing red bar.

Of course, just like a cleric will benefit from a FvS aura in the party for DP, so too will the FvS benefit from an RS in the party, making them inherently more survivable....again a wash.

[AtomicMew]

~

Agreed.

A cleric has higher healing capacity when it comes to raid healing, but that's it. That is a cleric's ONLY advantage. Folks can disagree all they want, but they are either not talking about end-game, or don't understand the metagame. In every other situation, a FvS is almost strictly better.

And even with a cleric's higher healing capacity, a FvS is STILL preferable in raids due to the crown, which is a basically a HUGE party buff better than even bard song.

Well...half cancelled out by Cleric higher Wisdom. And not everything, only things you wait until they get within your aura range. Some might prefer to be taking out things like beholders, epic caster mobs, etc., as soon as they see them, rather wait for them to come within debuff range. Or is the debuff range just as big as the spell-casting range of, say, Destruction?

No it's not "half-cancelled" it's "fourth-cancelled" and that is due to the fact that a cleric is REQUIRED to wear both epic helm of the mroronanon AND litany to have -1 to DC rather than -2. Whereas a FVS only needs to wear one of those. As discussed, this is important, because gear slots are already incredibly tight on a divine and will be even more important in the future, with new content and items released.

The spell flexibility on a Cleric alone is awesome. The continous free healing via aura helps make up for the difference in SP pool. The higher DC for "everything", not just things at close range, helps.

Free healing for cleric saving on SP is not a good argument in solo play, and does not even come close to beating the benefits of the FvS crown in team play. For solo, CLW capstone is about 3 times more healing over time than the aura. Higher HP, higher saves, permanent DR, wings, higher damage output all mean that a FvS will need to be healed LESS than a cleric to begin with.

[SirValentine]

There are almost no beholders at endgame.

SubT? HoX? eVoN2? eVoN3? Maybe more I'm not remembering.

Not as prevalent as, say, Devils, sure, but I'd hardly say "almost no" beholders.

[SirValentine]

A cleric has higher healing capacity when it comes to raid healing, but that's it. That is a cleric's ONLY advantage.

Healing is only advantage? Sure, if one doesn't know how to use the rest of the divine spell list.

Like I've said before, FvS have some nice things, but Clerics do too. Not sure why people feel the need to brag about how superior FvS are, while ignoring multiple Cleric advantages.

For solo, CLW capstone is about 3 times more healing over time than the aura.

You know, for some reason I thought you had to stop what you were doing to cast that CLW SLA every time, instead of getting automatic healing over time for a minute and a half straight while you do other things.

[erikbozelie]

Like I've said before, FvS have some nice things, but Clerics do too. Not sure why people feel the need to brag about how superior FvS are, while ignoring multiple Cleric advantages.

i do the reversed. ****es the fvs's off.
because an cleric can add 3 levels of 2 other classes, asumilating other classes features and abilities.
fvs will always lose to clerics in every angle by an noselength.

disbelievers? try beat those 2 cleric builds, 250 posts later and no one have been able to.

only thing left standing are the wings and debuff(nerved ). the rest have already been shot down as arguments.
from the math,random statements, to the whinny kid with his finger in his ear screaming "bla bla bla" saying its better because its pay to play.

still dont know why theyre still #@$@#$ about dr and the free clw when its easy duplicated or overun by the aura.

fvs arguments are invalid, stupid and have nothing to back it up.

this is really turning into that other thread again.

lets add some more fuel to the fire okay?

the fvs debuff doesnt do anything for the rest of the party on enemies with 0% fort . making them absolutely useless.
the archon damage for 1min is equelevent to an cleric meleeing for 3.4 seconds.
the dr of 5 aint really gonna do much. rather have 90 ac.

the 2 builds are confirmed by various people.

[Indoran]

To op:

Don't count on a +4 tome unless you have it

The helm is way easier to get than a +4 tome

A cleric has higher healing capacity when it comes to raid healing, but that's it. That is a cleric's ONLY advantage. Folks can disagree all they want, but they are either not talking about end-game, or don't understand the metagame. In every other situation, a FvS is almost strictly better.

It's not that much of a difference... and if you know how to play (aka sp conservation) it's even less difference.

I had a cleric 20 which did its share of raid healing before tr'ing to caster fvs... only thing I miss is DI when doing abbot. that's it! besides that... I prefer FvS.

SubT? HoX? eVoN2? eVoN3? Maybe more I'm not remembering.

Not as prevalent as, say, Devils, sure, but I'd hardly say "almost no" beholders.

HoX is hardly end game... it's more like something you can go and do a few times (20 / 40) until you get what you need and then forget it...

eVoN 2 ... 3 beholders?

eVon3 .... nobody runs it! unless for rare ocasions / specific seals

Aka Almost no beholders...

Lol @rant above against FvS

its not dr 5 ... it's dr 10, if WF can be more...

I would argue more but it's simply pointless with someone who says: "fvs arguments are invalid, stupid and have nothing to back it up."

To each it's own... I just wonder how many clerics have soloed ADQ on epic?

[MyHumps]

SubT? HoX? eVoN2? eVoN3? Maybe more I'm not remembering.

Not as prevalent as, say, Devils, sure, but I'd hardly say "almost no" beholders.

The subterranean and hox is endgame? lolwut I traveled back in time, the level cap is 16 again!

[Habreno]

Here's the general thing:

When soloing, the Favored Soul has the casting advantage due to their debuff, and bonus damage on their spells. This is a certain given.

When soloing, the Cleric has the melee advantage for many reasons. One being the ability to splash three levels without losing anything major- the second being Divine Might, and the third being their RS aura. Fourth advantage Clerics have when running solo is their Empower Healing metamagic gives a 75% boost on the major spell they'll be using: Heal. Favored Souls get a mere 50% boost from this powerful metamagic.


When grouped, with only one divine, the Favored Soul has the advantage of his debuff and bonus damage.

With two divines, both Favored Souls, you'd be better off with a Cleric because the debuffs do not stack.

With one divine, a Cleric, you will have better healing in the majority of cases due to the RS PrE. The aura provides a lot of healing, generally enough for most trash mobs. Bursts cover the rest of the trash mob damage,.

With two divines, both Clerics, nobody is stepping on the other's toes. Both get the bonus damage on DP from their bonus caster levels, and both auras are used, resulting in about 50 hp every two seconds being healed.

However, when you have two divines, one a Favored Soul and one a Cleric, the Cleric WILL outpreform the Favored Soul. In melee, the Cleric has more damage due to the reasons above. In offensive casting, the Cleric's +1 on the DC over the Soul benefits from the FvS's debuff. The two bonus caster levels on Divine Punishment benefit greatly when the debuff is added. Plus the Radiant Servant aura provides more healing than the CLW capstone does. Face it, more hp are gained back with an aura than the capstone- although the capstone is single-target and the aura is mass.

In that party, the Soul will be playing second fiddle to the Cleric in EVERY ASPECT. The Cleric outheals the Soul, he will outcast and outdamage the soul with spells, and has better melee.


I'm sorry to offend you Soulists, but the Cleric *is* superior in the main case where it matters: group settings. No toe-stepping, just straight-up better. However, your Souls are better soloers. Guess that's why nobody solos ADQ1 with their Cleric. They're a team player, unlike many Souls.

[SirValentine]

HoX is hardly end game... it's more like something you can go and do a few times (20 / 40) until you get what you need and then forget it...

You can say that about just about any raid. Once you have the ring you want, do you ever run ToD again? Some people don't. Does that mean it's not end game?

Are Amrath quests end game? HoX on Hard is level 19, same as Amrath quests on Normal are 19. Is ToD end game? HoX on Elite is level 20, same as ToD Normal is 20.

Personally, I consider any quest with a base level of 17 or higher to be part of end-game, and all Epics, of course. If you have a different definition, well, communication will be limited unless you share what your definition is.

eVon3 .... nobody runs it! unless for rare ocasions / specific seals

Just flat out wrong to say nobody runs it. Maybe you seldom run it, but there's plenty of people who run it quite often.

Aka Almost no beholders...

So you choose not to run the end-game stuff with beholders in it. That's not quite the same thing.

[AtomicMew]

However, when you have two divines, one a Favored Soul and one a Cleric, the Cleric WILL outpreform the Favored Soul. In melee, the Cleric has more damage due to the reasons above. In offensive casting, the Cleric's +1 on the DC over the Soul benefits from the FvS's debuff. The two bonus caster levels on Divine Punishment benefit greatly when the debuff is added. Plus the Radiant Servant aura provides more healing than the CLW capstone does. Face it, more hp are gained back with an aura than the capstone- although the capstone is single-target and the aura is mass.

This is flat out false and woefully uninformed about how AoV actually works.


1) The Archon alone ALREADY MAKES UP THE DIFFERENCE between triple stacked DOTs on a FvS compared to a cleric.

2) The FvS aura does not stack, but the crown debuff does. Bosses do AOE damage, so having two FvS in a group means twice the debuffs. Not only that, but the fortification debuff means that the FVS will add FAR more group DPS than a cleric could EVER dream of.

[Habreno]

Your Archon, from what I've heard on the forums, is about 15 DPS. Please note I don't know exactly what their damage is- I'm simply recalling a number I've heard on the forums.

2 Caster levels on DP:

2 x 3 triple stack x 2.5 metas x 2.15 enhancements+ Superior Brillance V clicky gives us 32.25 damage/tick. Without any crits whatsoever. Already more than your Archon- it;s 16 DPS.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and use 20 DPS. Let's also factor in crits.

15% crit chance (9% enhancements, 6% Arcane Lore) and 2.5x multiplier (2.25x enhancements, .25x Arcane Lore)

80.625 damage on crit. Average Damage is 39.50625. This gives 19.75... DPS. With plain old Arcane Lore, the two are tied. Now let's actually get the crits like they are gotten: Greater Arcane Lore plus .5x multiplier due to Archmage set bonus.

18% crit chance, 2.75x multiplier.

42.40875 damage, 21.2 DPS.

Two caster levels beats your Archon. Sorry, but you are wrong.

Even when you add in the debuff, the Cleric pulls ahead even more.