Make crafting a puzzle game!

[HarveyMilk]

Isn't crafting already a puzzle game?

......

But its already plenty puzzling without making it still more complicated.

No, my suggestion is not to scrap the entire thing and make it more complicated.

Here are the two real points I've sussed out of these posts.

1) Changing it would be too hard/time-consuming/distracting for developers.

This is a common argument against suggestions and not always true. In this case, because I'm not asking them to do anything but add a puzzle game alternative, no, I don't think it would be too hard. Yes, I demand fun in my games. And normally I wouldn't bother with suggestions, but there are too many things I like about DDO to stop playing.

2) A puzzle game doesn't fit

Puzzles DO fit in D&D, in fact, it's a defining characteristic. An MMORPG, by its very nature, can't recreate the true impromtu magic of D&D because there is no live DM to judge creative ideas as successes or failures with D20 rolls. So, instead, we have a combat system that breaks down at the 20th level (because of slavish adherence to D20, when 2D20 and 3D20 would REALLY help). And we have puzzles in quests, some required for completion, some required for bonus loot.

A puzzle game would certainly fit in with House C. A crafting house society game. This is how they have FUN. All work and no play... etc...

And, for the record, I have never ever played puzzle quest and never even heard of it until someone posted the name here in this thread.

More thoughtful responses and /signed pls

[Gorbadoc]

I'm trying to visualize Cannith Crafting as a puzzle game, and nothing pleasant comes to mind.

One possibility is that I'm just not envisioning what you're envisioning. In case that's the problem, I'm hoping you can explain what you're actually envisioning. I'm used to the puzzle that is shroud crafting: I.e. I let other people figure out how the system works, and I use their well-designed tools to figure out how I go about crafting. The only fun is in the fancy equipment I get as a result of the process.

Also, are you asking that this system alter how much output you get for the materials you invest in crafting?

If a fun Cannith mini-game could be devised, I'm still not sure what the point is. If it's fun game, why tie its enjoyment to my use of Cannith crafting? At present, I deconstruct junk items and craft junk parts much the way I sell junk items: It's an uninteresting task, but it's fairly quick and serves a utilitarian purpose.

[HarveyMilk]

I'm trying to visualize Cannith Crafting as a puzzle game, and nothing pleasant comes to mind.

One possibility is that I'm just not envisioning what you're envisioning. In case that's the problem, I'm hoping you can explain what you're actually envisioning. I'm used to the puzzle that is shroud crafting: I.e. I let other people figure out how the system works, and I use their well-designed tools to figure out how I go about crafting. The only fun is in the fancy equipment I get as a result of the process.

Also, are you asking that this system alter how much output you get for the materials you invest in crafting?

If a fun Cannith mini-game could be devised, I'm still not sure what the point is. If it's fun game, why tie its enjoyment to my use of Cannith crafting? At present, I deconstruct junk items and craft junk parts much the way I sell junk items: It's an uninteresting task, but it's fairly quick and serves a utilitarian purpose.

Okay, so imagine that instead of crafting junk parts, after you deconstruct, you take what you have and the essences you pick up and you play a puzzle game where you gamble your items for more crafting xp, and a modest reward if you win?

Now imagine if you can pick the difficulty, it's a direct window interface, it has PvP coop and competitive options and it's fun?

That's what's possible here. Remember, LOTS of players in DDO are not new, do not need to craft much of anything at low and mid crafting levels, and hate the crafting grind.

So why not make it... fun?

[Chaos000]

So... like sudoku puzzle to boost your crafting chance?

[HarveyMilk]

So... like sudoku puzzle to boost your crafting chance?

I assume, because there have been many puzzles designed by the devs in the past, that they are fully capable of creating a fun, unique puzzle system. It would need to be something that fits with the crafting House C theme. There could be a few different puzzle games, even a kind of chess-like strategy game, something where you're manipulating parts/elements, a card game... you know, fun games, created by the crafters, to entertain themselves.

If they do it right, it would be a great addition to DDO's marketability. Games have become almost essential to facebook. G+ has them. DDO could even outsource the design of the games, so as not to take developer time away, and then code them in after someone else makes them good. They could even get them uploaded to facebook/mobile phone as an app to help get DDO some more attention.

Let's face it. An MMO these days is a social network. It has to cross-pollinate as much as possible in order to compete.

[Devonian]

No, my suggestion is not to scrap the entire thing and make it more complicated.

Here are the two real points I've sussed out of these posts.

1) Changing it would be too hard/time-consuming/distracting for developers.

This is a common argument against suggestions and not always true. In this case, because I'm not asking them to do anything but add a puzzle game alternative, no, I don't think it would be too hard. Yes, I demand fun in my games. And normally I wouldn't bother with suggestions, but there are too many things I like about DDO to stop playing.

2) A puzzle game doesn't fit

Puzzles DO fit in D&D, in fact, it's a defining characteristic. An MMORPG, by its very nature, can't recreate the true impromtu magic of D&D because there is no live DM to judge creative ideas as successes or failures with D20 rolls. So, instead, we have a combat system that breaks down at the 20th level (because of slavish adherence to D20, when 2D20 and 3D20 would REALLY help). And we have puzzles in quests, some required for completion, some required for bonus loot.

A puzzle game would certainly fit in with House C. A crafting house society game. This is how they have FUN. All work and no play... etc...

And, for the record, I have never ever played puzzle quest and never even heard of it until someone posted the name here in this thread.

More thoughtful responses and /signed pls

My point is that they are a long long way from a workable crafting system with transparency of what I need/what can I make/ what can fit on what item without actually complicating by trying to make a game of it.

[sirgog]

I like this idea.

Crafting is a solo activity - the perfect place, IMO, for puzzles in an MMO.

[Gorbadoc]

Remember, LOTS of players in DDO are not new, do not need to craft much of anything at low and mid crafting levels, and hate the crafting grind.

Yeah, I'm still confused by the need to choose which worthless parts I want to craft to gain crafting XP. I don't expect total realism, but it would be both more straightforward and more realistic if I had the option to "Craft experimental component"-- an act which would NOT produce a useful component (i.e. the output wouldn't even appear in my inventory), but which WOULD produce crafting XP as though I had made something difficult for my level.

My point is that they are a long long way from a workable crafting system with transparency of what I need/what can I make/ what can fit on what item without actually complicating by trying to make a game of it.

Yeah, so far I've just been deconstructing and building junk parts to get my level up, on the assumption that this brings me closer to +4 <Aligned> <Metal> weapons of Greater <Type> Bane.

Of course, I'd probably be doing the exact same thing even if I DID understand the exact material requirements of the items worth crafting.

[HarveyMilk]

I don't expect total realism, but it would be both more straightforward and more realistic if I had the option to "Craft experimental component"-- an act which would NOT produce a useful component (i.e. the output wouldn't even appear in my inventory), but which WOULD produce crafting XP as though I had made something difficult for my level.

Exactly. Or even, "Craft experimental game component." And use those components in the puzzle games. There are so many ways to make it work. Please, let's get more mind use in the game wherever possible.

[Devonian]

Exactly. Or even, "Craft experimental game component." And use those components in the puzzle games. There are so many ways to make it work. Please, let's get more mind use in the game wherever possible.

No. Please lets focus on making the system more transparent, so I can go 'Hmm, I can add +2 level in enchantments to this rune arm... see what my options are... I'll do that... This is neat!' as smoothly as possible without having to sift though a pile of undifferentiated options most of which are so far out with my level its actually silly.

When the crafting system is accessable without having to mouse over every single option to see what its level incraes on the item is and when you need say less than 3 seperate machines with attendant interminable laundry lists of options to plough through *then* I could be persuaded that its a gameable space. But trying to game the current system, which already has several built in undisclosed fail-states like it not making clear what powers are prefix/suffix, not filtering by item level mod and so on, will only make it harder for new players or inexperienced craftsmen to get started, and then we are back with greensteel. an opaque overly complicated system requiring too great an investment in resources (Including time, effort and thought) for any but end game players to take an interest in.

Simply put, I'd like them to focus on making crafting something I can do casually, not in the sense of lack of commitment, but it should take as little effort as possible to see what I can do with it, what I will need for it, and how it will be accomplished.

[thegrindre]

I, too, am against this option. I don't need the headache of more gambling while crafting. The gamble is already strong enough at 65% when you're having a bad day of it.
When you fail, you lose some essences as it is.
I don't need to just gamble them away foolishly...

[HarveyMilk]

Simply put, I'd like them to focus on making crafting something I can do casually, not in the sense of lack of commitment, but it should take as little effort as possible to see what I can do with it, what I will need for it, and how it will be accomplished.

Okay, this is fine, I actually agree that they can make the current mechanics better. And that's beside the point of my suggestion. I'm looking for them to add a puzzle option for people who would rather puzzle. These are not mutually exclusive, at all. In fact, they would benefit each other in MANY ways.

[Devonian]

Okay, this is fine, I actually agree that they can make the current mechanics better. And that's beside the point of my suggestion. I'm looking for them to add a puzzle option for people who would rather puzzle. These are not mutually exclusive, at all. In fact, they would benefit each other in MANY ways.

Possibly but, you get the basics right before complicating them. And yes, any creation of a game state will complicate things by definition.

When they make the process of crafting simple as I have explained, I promise you, I will swing by here and be a cheerleader for your idea because at that point, I think it will be a really cool and inovatave idea.

But right now its like suggesting an obstetrics ward on an ice rink.

[PinkDragonJr]

Yay Bejeweled for DDO. the more of the right crystals you chain together the more essences you get

[HarveyMilk]

Yay Bejeweled for DDO. the more of the right crystals you chain together the more essences you get

LOL yes!

And a head-to-head bejeweled blitz round where the winner gets the essences and both players get crafting xp =D

And then a head-to-head chess-like game? Or even a simple tower defense strategy board? And a gambling hall with a poker-like game and some dice games?

House C needs some leisure activity, asap!

[PinkDragonJr]

whoa, whoa. easy there, chief. we wouldn't want to alienate the casual gamers now would we.

[Celastelin]

This would be much easier of an idea to implement than to make the game balanced for PvP. A brawling area in a tavern doesn't make as much sense to me as gambling tables would. I'd be for puzzles in crafting if it'd make sense. It's gotta "feel" like you are crafting something rather than playing a random puzzle game in the middle of crafting for no apparent reason.

/tentative sign

[Aurora1979]

The original green steal crafting WAS a puzzle game.

The first people to work it all out had to do the puzzle. It reminds me of an old amegia game, Batman the moive, one of the bits you have to figure out what in the gas.... Im digressing.

It seems this isn't what the majority wanted.

The hard stuff was worked out by the first people to do the puzzle. Everyone then just followed the guide because another turn at the puzzle cost quite a bit (the time to get the ings)

The devs have gone with this new window type crafting now because the old style was a hassle.

Personally I do play puzzle games but within DDO I dont want the puzzles to be too complicated. I don't play this game for that outlet.

So, not signed for me.

This thread was only 8 months dead, hadn't quite developed a proper putrescence for proper necroing. 10-12 months dead usually smells better.

Ewwwww I got necro'd thread all over me!

[cdbd3rd]

whoa, whoa. easy there, chief. we wouldn't want to alienate the casual gamers now would we.

This thread was only 8 months dead, hadn't quite developed a proper putrescence for proper necroing. 10-12 months dead usually smells better.

[Jay203]

this would only work only if it's optional....
i don't want to have to play a mini game every time i want to craft something, gets really boring after a while

we could probably have some sort of puzzle that increases the success chance if you succeed, making it option but with benefit
but not a PvP game though, needs some actual puzzles that makes you THINK
and if possible, probably a new puzzle every week to keep things fresh