Cleric Pure or Split?

[Helexax]

What advantages are there for a cleric to go pure, as opposed to ( any ) multiclass options?

[HarveyMilk]

Cleric, with the radiant servant PrE, allows for rather good healing for low sp's. So it's very easy to splash to gain feats, usually for some melee ability. So 2 fighter and 2 or 3 monk are common options. 17 cleric is enough to get you one level 9 spell, usually mass heal, so you can still, with quicken, main heal raids with relatively efficient sp usage.

Pure cleric gives you a capstone (meh, it's good for cheesing one of the abbott puzzles), more importantly it gives you full spell penetration, which helps your implosions, energy drains and destructions beat basic mob spell resistance. It also gives you more level 9 spells.

Offensive caster-focused clerics will often stay pure.

[Inferno346]

Hmm...

Pure:
1. DI
a. People too lazy to learn ice love you in Abbot. Also a nice safety catch if doing ice legitimately, in case someone autotargets a sarcophagus with the ice wand, etc.
b. It's a nice second tier of defense in addition to death pact, and useful to use on tanks in raids.

2. A few extra spell points. Meh.

3. Caster level 22 for Divine Punishment, making you in concert with a FvS's guard effect able to do the highest damage with this spell.

4. A few extra level 8-9 spells. One of my favorite things about my pure cleric is the ability to always have all four of the good level 9 spells: Implosion, Energy Drain, True Res, and Mass Heal. An 18/2 will only have 3 of these at any one time, and a 17/2/1 or 17/3 only 2.

5. More (+2 vs. the most common splash) spell pen. This is mostly canceled out by the fact that you don't get as many feats as a splash.


Splash:
18 cleric/2 monk: The default casting option.

You get a lot of benefits- 2x toughness feats, freeing up a normal feat for another casting feat, evasion, option to get AC, option to go into stance for +2 wis or +2 con.

17 cleric/2 monk/1 fighter and other melee variants: Gets more melee ability (extra feat, haste boost I) and loses some casting ability (spell pen, spell points, spell slots).

[GermanicusMaximus]

I play a 19/1 cleric/fighter, which is mostly a caster build with just a splash of melee (martial weapon access and Power Attack).

Pros/cons
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Pure:

1) People will assume you must be an uber healer because, wow, you have 20 levels of cleric

2) A few more spell points

3) Offensive casting DCs and spell penetration probably +1 higher, depending upon how you spend your APs and ability points

4) The final level 9 spell slot, which you can use on that gimp Hez summons

5) Limited solo ability, primarily played in groups


19/1 Multiclass:

1) People who you have never run with will tend to ask "Are you a healer?" which no doubt is a reflection of the newb they ran with back in Korthos who wanted to sword and board everything using their light mace, instead of actually healing anyone.

2) A few less spell points

3) Offensive casting DCs and spell penetration probably 1 lower, depending upon how you spend your APs and ability points

4) A longer learning curve, since you are learning not only how to heal, offensive cast and melee, but also how to effectively switch back and forth and, most importantly, when you should be doing which of the 3.

5) Need more gear to fully exploit the build. Want to melee, offensive cast and heal? Each requires gear that you'll need to acquire and tote around.

6) Solo ability is excellent

7) Healing ability is basically the same as a pure class cleric, and that is what you will likely be doing in a group. The bigger the group, the more likely you should just stand back and throw heals because it is unlikely the group will have anyone better qualified to do that job.

8) So much fun to play, and so flexible, you may have a hard time forcing yourself to play anything else.

[-Nismu-]

i personally love the 3monk/17cleric build, it gets stuns, evasion (though pretty bad saves), and with taking light fist you get extra healing source and bunch of buffs (less sp used, mass blur, aso.) Also only very few expect you to heal (even if you can do it pretty well once you get prestige)

Though i admit those 3 levels without blade barrier sometimes feel very long.

[Inferno346]

5) Limited solo ability, primarily played in groups

Hehe- there are many ways to gear/play a character. Pure clerics can have amazing solo ability.

[Mubjon]

On my first cleric I went with Half Elf and fighter dilly pure level 20. Put strength in at 16, con 16 and Wisdom 16 on a 32 pt build.

Was a blast, could melee some when needed up to elite content with the proper buffs in place. And had almost 2100 sp with a base of 16 wisdom.

If you have helf I would recommend doing the fighter dilly as you get all the martial weapons and can still remain pure cleric. Letting you swing two handed weapons leveling up when SP are low. Plus once you get blade barrier is it is nice to cast it as the mobs are coming to you and then clean them up after they pass through it once or twice if you start backing up. Makes it easy to solo any content once you get that spell.


I have since TR'd to a wizard as I want some past lives to help make the final version of my cleric which will be a 36 pt Cleric/Monk that is Dex/Wis focus.

[AtomicMew]

20 levels also makes all your mass heals/cures more powerful. This is important if you're looking for efficient healing. ~250-350 SP is also not something to scoff at.

[morticianjohn]

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Pure:

5) Limited solo ability, primarily played in groups

If you're going to be biased it is important not to say anything untrue otherwise your entire post gets discounted

[AtomicMew]

If you're going to be biased it is important not to say anything untrue otherwise your entire post gets discounted

But it pretty much is true. Not saying that a pure cleric can't solo, but, for example, a 18/2 clonk solo ability is simply higher.

Pure cleric gets 2 more spell pen, but an 18/2 gets two more feats, one of which can be spell penetration.
Pure cleric has slightly better mass heals: irrelevant in solo play.
Pure cleric has ~200 more SP. That's nice, but in solo play, having a torc is the only limit on spell points.

Clonk has 2 higher wisdom (+1 DC).
Clonk has evasion.
Clonk has much better saves (not so important in a full group).
Clonk still has an extra feat, assuming he used one to recover lost spell penetration.

[Habreno]

Okay, pick a build and stick with it. Are you going 19Cleric/1Fighter or 18Cleric/2Monk?

Quite frankly, neither has the soloability of a 20 Cleric. Simply having the capstone makes a big difference: Failed your save on Disintegrate and took 675 damage? Still living. Toss thyself a heal and keep fighting on. Oh, wait. Your splashes died. Restart quest? Pure Cleric doesn't have to. And add to that that in the end, we will be alive longer because we have more SP. Despite a Torq and Conc-Op, you will run out eventually.

[Marlowe221]

Could someone post (or point to) a pure cleric caster build that would have the above-mentioned ability to solo?

I want to make one!

[PNellesen]

Could someone post (or point to) a pure cleric caster build that would have the above-mentioned ability to solo?

I want to make one!

The guy in my sig was (and is) a LOT of fun to solo with, but obviously requires Half-Elf

[EatSmart]

But it pretty much is true. Not saying that a pure cleric can't solo, but, for example, a 18/2 clonk solo ability is simply higher.

That's not necessarily true actually.

>> Clonk has 2 higher wisdom (+1 DC).
But must remain fully centred to do so, and loses -2 str as its based off water stance. Fully centred means monk weapons only, naked/pajamas only and not encumbered. You're sacrificing toys like timeblade to have that stance active.

>> Clonk has evasion.
Which is nice when used wisely in a build. Evasion is not the be all and end all of surviving a caster heavy encounter. Simply tagging an evasion splash on a build and declaring it "uberer" doesnt actually make it better.

>> Clonk has much better saves (not so important in a full group).
It is not "much better". "much better" is the difference between a wizard with insightful reflexes and one without. Its still a plus though, and has good synergy with the evasion.

>> Clonk still has an extra feat, assuming he used one to recover lost spell penetration.
Is nice, and along with evasion probably the main selling points of the splash, but not a dominating difference to throw out sweeping statements like "splashed are simply better at solo".

These are all situational benefits, and you overstate their importance.

Similar situational advantage arguments for solo ability can be made for the pure build.

20:
The most obvious one at 20 is the capstone. Its more than simply "that disint that took me to -500 actually only took me to -9 and then i got better when it hjealed me". It is outright immunity to effects that attempt to set your HPs to -10 without discharging the buff. Aside from the "creative" implications of that which i'm not going to detail or condone, you have an undispellable death effect immunity. For a class that can self cast deathward, this is great, as it means you can go into dispel heavy quests and know that you dont have to swap in a deathblock item (commonly people swap torc for silver flame) just in case you get hit with deathstuff before you notice deathward is gone.
Capstone is great for people that like to take risks.
Dropping from 20 to 18 on a radiant is also taking your aura base amount from 7 (22/3 rounded down) to 6 (20/3 rounded down), which scales very quickly once you take it through all the casting and healing amp formulae.

Levelling:
The cleric spell list is full of spells that can hose content. being 1-2 levels behind on getting spells like FoM and deathward can be the difference between an efficient zerg run and a crawl run with a few deaths on the way.
The -2 caster level penalty for the splash is significant when you first get bladebarrier. The sweet spot for this spell is when you can get the damage up to instant killing in one tick on a failed save. When you drop a bladebarrier, you know that anything following you without evasion will die, and those with evasion have to pass 2 saves to survive. For any quest where a 2 splash can hit the sweet spot, the pure can turn empower off. Throw some divine casters in the mix, and its even more critical.

The merits of pures vs splashes are situational and really depend on the quest they are in. To claim either is better is being overly reductive.

Lvl 20 elven clerics are the best, you should all reroll to my build.

[Marlowe221]

The guy in my sig was (and is) a LOT of fun to solo with, but obviously requires Half-Elf

Looks very cool.

But let's pretend for a moment that half-elf did not exist. What modifications would you make to your build then?

[AtomicMew]

That's not necessarily true actually.

>> Clonk has 2 higher wisdom (+1 DC).
But must remain fully centred to do so, and loses -2 str as its based off water stance. Fully centred means monk weapons only, naked/pajamas only and not encumbered. You're sacrificing toys like timeblade to have that stance active.

Being centered is not a problem, because fists are the highest DPS weapons a clonk can use.

Evasion is not the be all and end all of surviving a caster heavy encounter. Simply tagging an evasion splash on a build and declaring it "uberer" doesnt actually make it better.

I never said that evasion alone makes a build more uber. In the context of soloing, every advantage I've described, along with the lack of real downsides makes the clonk better (in the context of soloing).

It is not "much better". "much better" is the difference between a wizard with insightful reflexes and one without. Its still a plus though, and has good synergy with the evasion.

It IS much, much better. A clonk has a +5 straight up on reflex saves, and a lot of caster clonks opt for lightning reflexes for a +7 difference. That is not marginal by any means.

It is outright immunity to effects that attempt to set your HPs to -10 without discharging the buff.

Provide examples.

Dropping from 20 to 18 on a radiant is also taking your aura base amount from 7 (22/3 rounded down) to 6 (20/3 rounded down), which scales very quickly once you take it through all the casting and healing amp formulae.

Would hardly call 1 more point every 3 seconds "scaling quickly".

Leveling

If getting access to spells early was so important (it's not), A clonk can easily get to 20 as a pure cleric the entire time, by taking the last two levels as monk. So this a pretty irrelevant point.

The merits of pures vs splashes are situational and really depend on the quest they are in. To claim either is better is being overly reductive.

Being overly reductive is only a bad thing if it's actually true. You have yet to show that a pure has any tangible advantage in a solo situation. DI is nice, but I'd rather plan on not getting incapped, don't know about you. There's also death pact, if I'd ever want to play to such a silly strategy.

My cleric is pure too with past life as a clonk. So I've had the opportunity to compare both builds directly. I don't use him to solo anymore. That's not to say he's a waste, because as a pure, he's much more party oriented due to having more resources and bigger heals. But if I wanted to primarly solo with a cleric, I'd play a clonk. It's really that simple. The advantages of the clonk (2 more feats, way higher melee DPS, +1 DC, far hardier with massively better saves and evasion) all make a clonk the better solo choice, by far.

[Sarisa]

Being centered is not a problem, because fists are the highest DPS weapons a clonk can use.

However, requiring a Ki weapon to remain in stance restricts you from some excellent caster weapons, like the Cove dagger, Skiver, and others. The staves (Epic Inner Sight, Petitioner) are fine, but the daggers/scepters/clubs are not. Requiring Ki weapons limits your options and make it slightly tougher to equip in full caster mode. In melee mode, the Clonk (or an 18/2 fighter splash) will definitely win out.

Provide examples.

Triggering the lever traps in Epic Wiz King without a trapper in party. You will only get knocked down to -9, even with the multiple hits the traps do.

Abbot water. Even discounting the Ice puzzle tricks, it's excellent if the Abbot Telekinesis's you into the water, or you need to go and get people's stones that have dumped STR and can't jump back up onto the platform.

Titan pillars, they can fall on your head and you will not die or take damage.

The above mentioned Dispel heavy quest, when you expect your Deathward to be knocked off and don't want to swap a Torc for a Silver Flame Talisman; or your Litany/Eardweller/other good trinket for a Pale Lavendar. Epic Offering of Blood for instance.

Having an easier time doing the "5 lights" puzzle to open up VoD. DI lets you go through the red light without any risk of death.

DI isn't useful for everyone, but I find enough uses to want to remain pure. I am planning a Clonk life on my TR'ing caster, but my main will remain pure and never TR again. I can solo a number of things effectively, and the only things that an evasive AND good save splash can do that I couldn't would be things that include a lot of (nearly) unavoidable traps or massive spell damage. Elite Sins I can handle the trash with no trouble, it's the Guillotines and other traps that I have to pass through while dealing with the trash that usually kill me off.

A Clonk is definitely a better solo'er, but it's not such a huge difference that a pure cleric is a useless solo'er.

Would hardly call 1 more point every 3 seconds "scaling quickly".

Once you apply enhancements, Empower Healing, and Potency/Devotion/Ardor; that becomes 2-3 additional per tick and 5-10 additional per crit. Add in healing amp on yourself or those around you and that can add up even more. Yes, it's not much, but it can add up enough to reduce self-healing needs when solo'ing. Now monks do get healing amp enhancements, so it evens out PERSONAL aura healing a bit.

[EatSmart]

>> Being centered is not a problem, because fists are the highest DPS weapons a clonk can use.

I'm dubious about that claim, but I'll let it slide as my point was more about what weapons and armour you are outright unable to use simultaneously with stance. To continue the example in the earlier post; timeblade is a proc on attack CC effect. Being able to get through an encounter without spending sp because the mob(s) only managed to land 4-5 hits on you before they were taken out of the fight is powerful. Even if the cleric concerned wants to use a faith other than sov host, or a race other than elf, or a half elf with fighter dilly, or sourcing Master's Touch they can still use these as non proficient weapons as non-proficiency is a soft limitation, not a hard limitation like centred is.

>> A clonk has a +5 straight up on reflex saves, and a lot of caster clonks opt for lightning reflexes for a +7 difference.

Lightning reflexes is a feat if you're spending it on +2 saves to preserve the "my reflex saves are awesome" advantage, then its time to reevaluate why you went splash if it was to fit in the extra feats. Of the +5, only 3 of that comes from the stat line. 2 is from water stance, which again you're reliant on keeping the stance up.

>> I never said that evasion alone makes a build more uber.

I know, I was putting words in your mouth which is a little unfair. A lot of people do seem to think that way though. There is a spectrum of builds for clerics and I'm fed up of running to fire base to res evasion splash toons that didn't bother to back their evasion up with the reflex they need. Saving on a 2, with fireshield and 30+ fire res works well too.

>> Provide examples.

If death spells and death effects is not sufficient, I cant give you any more detail without also explaining the mechanics to a point where people that want to use the "creative" uses of DI who dont already know them would learn them.

>> Would hardly call 1 more point every 3 seconds "scaling quickly".

Really? i'd call it over 15%. Thats 1 point on the base of the calculation, not one point on the end healing tick.

>> If getting access to spells early was so important (it's not), A clonk can easily get to 20 as a pure cleric the entire time, by taking the last two levels as monk. So this a pretty irrelevant point.

If you're going pure till 19 then its the pure build you're chosing to play for 18 levels of your life which should raise alarm bells about what you're taking the splash for. Did I really need handwraps if I didnt use them till 19? Did I really need evasion if I only picked it up at 20? You're also restricting your feat advantage benefits by taking the monk levels late. Ideally you want to burn them on feats like toughness and power attack so that you can use the general feat slots later, which have better options to chose from.
Sorry, but splashie is a level or two behind the pure on divine progression, and for a class that has access to content hosing spells that's a significant difference. I remember one of my friends lesser resing to pure for several levels out of frustration.

>> DI is nice, but I'd rather plan on not getting incapped, don't know about you. There's also death pact, if I'd ever want to play to such a silly strategy.

Deathpact requires you to die, and has a whole raft of restrictions where it wont proc (such as in traps) to prevent its use as an easy bypass. What, prey tell is silly about "I'll fail Raiyum's disint on a 1 and i'm on X HPs currently, and his disint hits for X+Y. Oh well i'll probably save and i've got DI if I'm wrong, lets see if aura is enough for now. I'll use my Heal as extra DPS on him."

The advantages of the splash vs non-splash are situational. There is a trap when replying to these types of threads to want to defend the decisions you made rather than critically analysing the classes.

[PNellesen]

Looks very cool.

But let's pretend for a moment that half-elf did not exist. What modifications would you make to your build then?

Hmmm.... I have a thing for the ability to use two-handed slashing weapons. I would likely go Human (for the extra feat) and get Falchion, Greatsword, or Greataxe proficiency.

Lvl 20 elven clerics are the best, you should all reroll to my build.

I've run with Gallina a few times on other characters (I remember an Elite Coal Chamber which capped my then-Elf Ranger rather fondly) and yeah, she's pretty awesome

[Firesmall_at]

Evasion is nice. If there are traps a cleric monk is a huge resource. Kinda like a Wiz/Rog. It opens that slot for another healer or another melee. These multis are the best combos in the game IMHO, but I don't play them. They are tough to play and equip. They rock when played right. I just like a simpler build, so I go CLR18/FTR2. I like long two handed weapons with huge damage arcs. It helps with lag and graphic slowdowns.

I don't think multi or pure should be based on situations. It should be based on what you think you can handle and what you think is fun to play for you. Playing a multi is just that, so there is more to do, more equipment to carry, and more prioritizing, and more multi tasking. That is why the splash clerics get a bad rap for not tasking right. But so what. The more fun I having doing it and the challenge more than makes up for the pug that gets ****ed once in a while. The success of being a spell caster and melee damage arse kicker more than makes up for the few times you may do it wrong. It is after all just a game.