Either lower the fortification for raid bosses, or...

[Thrudh]

This is incorrect. Every time Condemnation procs, the stack increases and the 20 second timer will restart. It's a 10% proc chance on taking damage.

A 50% fortified monster with a -50% fortification effect will be at 0% fortification.


It has stacking fort save reduction attached to it, even on successful saves. If you're still having trouble landing it after working that stack up to -15, there are several ways to increase the save DC. (Shatter weapons, higher strength, Kensei, various Tactics enhancements.)

Shintao monks can also use Jade Strike on devil bosses to lower their fortification by 25% as well, on a failed Will save. That's a bit tougher to land though. Against non-devil bosses, the dark monks have Touch of Despair available for 25% (and Improved Sunder makes it more likely to land). Opportunist also reduces opponent fortification by 10%, but that's personal only.


Every Pit Fiend and Horned Devil raid boss' fortification is currently 50% on normal, 65% on hard, and 80% on elite. Epic Velah's fortification is 50%. Epic Lailat's fortification is 80%. Even the Lord of Blades left his heavy fort item at home, and is sitting at 80% (even though he really should have the Improved Fort feat).

If people are working together to reduce fortification, those numbers are able to be significantly lowered or even reduced all the way to zero, and all of the physical DPS goes up.


There is a strong desire for tanking characters to be welcome in more difficult raids. The Lord of Blades and Master Artificer encounters were built with this in mind.

We also like things like Improved Sunder and the other active fort reducing attacks having value. Currently Condemnation is the biggest single source of potential fort reduction, but it's less reliable than the active attacks.

We want to encourage teamwork for these high end encounters when possible. It's a sacrifice for me to take Improved Sunder and use it, but it helps everyone. (Even the guy casting Disintegrate.)


The increase in fight length is the part that casters have a tougher time dealing with than melee, since melee characters don't run out of gas in the same way.


Opportunist should improve sneak attack percentages on creatures that are not inherently immune to them. (Undead, elementals, etc.) At this time it does not permit sneak attacks on sneak attack immune opponents.

Edit: After doing some investigation, I can confirm that there is indeed a bug with sneak attack and opportunist. It's not always being applied correctly.

Thanks Eladrin for explaining all that...

To the others: You may not agree with the devs thinking, but you can't just say they are "making it up as they go along". Seems like they definitely had a plan in mind when they raised fortification levels...

My tactics barbarian will take Improved Sunder now. Let's see if that helps

[weewoo0]

I think the only problem we have here is that people refuse to adapt. Once the bug for fortification not adding sneak attacks for rogues is fixed there are multiple ways to reduce fortification to practically nothing. Unless my numbers are wrong then it looks like

25% jade strike
10% improved sunder
10% opportunist
50% condemnation
+25% on nondevil bosses from touch of death

for a total of 95% on devil bosses and 120% on non-devil bosses with touch of death. That SHOULD mean you're guaranteed -20% fortification on ALL bosses since every melee should start incorporating improved sunder in their build. I personally don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

barbarians paladins rangers and rogues. VERY few of them will take improved sunder. so not ALL melees.

opportunist - not working on sneak so irrelevant

condemnation x5 for 50% - i've only ever seen it once so i'm fairly certain that the 10% procrate is a myth

25% jade strike - obscene will saves on the devil bosses. so unless you want a monk to gimp their dps into oblivion continually spamming that then no. - ALSO it DOESN"T EVEN WORK ON DEVILS.

touch of despair, NOT TOUCH OF DEATH, -> few dark monks have the wis to make it work consistently. and beyond that few monk builds can build for the wis to make it work and still have the dps/to-hit to do enough to matter.

so no. their fort is now 80%. -10% sometimes if there's a melee with improved sunder in their build, which will still be a rare thing to get off since very few builds incorporate a shatter item <discounting those w/ marilith chain ofc>.

the fort needs to be put back where it was as currently it marginalizes rogues to the point where they are not, and SHOULD not, be welcome on most elite raids.

[brzytki]

Wait, you're seeing SA damage on training dummy? I have to check this out. Dummy is an inanimate construct and should be completely immune to SA damage no matter what fort it has. I see crits on it with my rogue (opportunist) once in a while, but never SA damage. Fort bugs are the new handwraps. :-P

You could always SA dummy, if a monk lowered fort with Touch of Despair for example. Funny thing is, monks have a couple of ways to lower fort but they are the last class to benefit from this, while rogues have only one buggy way and they are affected the most.

[Thar]

I agree there is a fort problem here. Why don't all intelligent end bosses have 100% like any 12th level toon.

Why is the door to their lair wide open?

Why don't they buff themselves with spells?

Why don't they run and take out the clerics and casters first?

Why don't they ambush the invaders to their lair?

Because this is a game and the good guys are supposed to win. If not then why bother.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Shintao monks can also use Jade Strike on devil bosses to lower their fortification by 25% as well, on a failed Will save. That's a bit tougher to land though. Against non-devil bosses, the dark monks have Touch of Despair available for 25% (and Improved Sunder makes it more likely to land). Opportunist also reduces opponent fortification by 10%, but that's personal only.


.

Are you talking about the same game? From Jade Strike Description: "This ability ONLY functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are NOT classified as LAWFUL OUTSIDERS, and undead ...."

Dude....really...w.....t.....f

[weewoo0]

Thanks Eladrin for explaining all that...

To the others: You may not agree with the devs thinking, but you can't just say they are "making it up as they go along". Seems like they definitely had a plan in mind when they raised fortification levels...

My tactics barbarian will take Improved Sunder now. Let's see if that helps

if by plan you mean increasing fort to benefit snb characters in new raids which they can't even participate in due to their primary sacrifices being overly emphasized... yes they have a plan. to annoy all ac tanks while saying they buffed them.

[Bladedge]

Once again the AC, DR, Fort, HP pradox rears its ungly head.
--Monster Side
Give them High AC players didnt like it so we gave them more HP (orignal relese).

Give them high HP and certain DR but the players didn't like always needing a specil type of weapon before making contact with hp, so we lower the HP after a update.

Give them them high fort players dont like it they want more HP.


---Player Side
If AC is not above 60+ don't even try for it, worse on epic

Don't have X HP base on class & race, con combo , dismiss from group

Don't have 75-100% fort your a liability.

DR is useless when mobs hit with base of 60+

Since players have high fort monsters damage increses.


Its long over due to trash the majority current D20 3.5 DnD rules for AC, DR, Fort, for both players and monsters and go DnD home-brew.

[altrocks]

I think the only problem we have here is that people refuse to adapt. Once the bug for fortification not adding sneak attacks for rogues is fixed there are multiple ways to reduce fortification to practically nothing. Unless my numbers are wrong then it looks like

25% jade strike
10% improved sunder
10% opportunist
50% condemnation
+25% on nondevil bosses from touch of death

for a total of 95% on devil bosses and 120% on non-devil bosses with touch of death. That SHOULD mean you're guaranteed -20% fortification on ALL bosses since every melee should start incorporating improved sunder in their build. I personally don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

Bolded for emphasis. Hey, while we're at it, let's do the calcs for Monk DPS once handwraps are fixed and base our builds around that, too. The problem's we're discussing are with the game as it is working right now, not as it should be or could be or might be if X, Y and Z. Yes, rogues will be better off once SA/Fort problems are addressed, but that's not a certainty. We might have to wait for U12 or even later if the problem is one of those tug-on-a-loose-thread issues.

What do we do until then? Just leave our rogues to rot? We need something in the next patch, not just a "we're working on it".

[weewoo0]

Bolded for emphasis. Hey, while we're at it, let's do the calcs for Monk DPS once handwraps are fixed and base our builds around that, too. The problem's we're discussing are with the game as it is working right now, not as it should be or could be or might be if X, Y and Z. Yes, rogues will be better off once SA/Fort problems are addressed, but that's not a certainty. We might have to wait for U12 or even later if the problem is one of those tug-on-a-loose-thread issues.

What do we do until then? Just leave our rogues to rot? We need something in the next patch, not just a "we're working on it".

+1 and i'm betting on U42

[Nyvn]

I think the only problem we have here is that people refuse to adapt. Once the bug for fortification not adding sneak attacks for rogues is fixed there are multiple ways to reduce fortification to practically nothing. Unless my numbers are wrong then it looks like

25% jade strike
10% improved sunder
10% opportunist
50% condemnation
+25% on nondevil bosses from touch of death

for a total of 95% on devil bosses and 120% on non-devil bosses with touch of death. That SHOULD mean you're guaranteed -20% fortification on ALL bosses since every melee should start incorporating improved sunder in their build. I personally don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

So basically Guild/Channel runs will continue to be easy and PUGs will have a more difficult time. Specialized builds work fine if you have them but I don't particularly like waiting on for one specific character to join the LFM.

[Carpone]

I agree there is a fort problem here. Why don't all intelligent end bosses have 100% like any 12th level toon.

Because 12 level toons don't have 350k HP.

[Thrudh]

You sure about that Velah number - that 'feels' low.

So you've pretty much confirmed we need to bring 3 people with us who can lower fortification just so a rogue isn't worthless on epic/elite. With these changes you're blatantly saying "rogues don't belong in Elite/Epic raids" and excluding an entire class is a horrible way to run a game.

Were they considered that over-powered that this needed to be done?

Lowering fort actually helps everyone so maybe we should be more focused on that, but yeah, this change still does hurt rogues a bit too much... because they can't contribute much if the rest of the team doesn't bring certain feats to the table.

[Tinco]

I think the only problem we have here is that people refuse to adapt.

The adaptation can start as soon as fort reduction actually works as advertised and is somewhat reliable. We now have the fort and some buggy and unreliable antifort which kinda makes it obvious why we can't 'adapt'.

Once the bug for fortification not adding sneak attacks for rogues is fixed there are multiple ways to reduce fortification to practically nothing. Unless my numbers are wrong then it looks like

25% jade strike
10% improved sunder
10% opportunist
50% condemnation
+25% on nondevil bosses from touch of death

So we now need a light monk, a dark monk, a tactics fighter and a FvS in every raid. Might work but I don't agree with spreading fort reduce so thin and buggy.

I want to add again that condemnation is all but reliable. You will lose the stack very often against normal attack speed enemies, leaving you most of the time with 0%-20% fort reduce with spikes towards 30%-40% for a very short time.

for a total of 95% on devil bosses and 120% on non-devil bosses with touch of death. That SHOULD mean you're guaranteed -20% fortification on ALL bosses since every melee should start incorporating improved sunder in their build. I personally don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

So to make melees (and rogues in particular) in elite raids useful again we go towards 'optimal' raid rosters. Again, I don't like that direction at all.

This is an artificial huge pile of problems, bugs and dependencies that could have been completely avoided by just keeping the old status quo.

[tinyelvis]

easy explanation: protection from good.

besides if heavy fort is reasonable so is deathblock. also it is not a stretch to imagine epic mobs could have elemental absorption items too. not to mention that the casters should keep the brutes buffed with long duration buffs like resists, GH, freedom of movement and true seeing.

would you like to play like that?

Simple rebuttal: It's not PfG. The charm lands, it just is ineffective. Not to mention few good player are good aligned. If the buffs you speak of were treated like spells then it would be understandable. Unlike fortitude this falls outside of the game logic. They are just blanket immunities applied with No way to reduce or eliminate. If the trash were armed with items then Mordenkeinens disjunction should work, at least on trash. They don,t. To me these are unreasonable lazy man nerfs. The number of players who really are effected are small, so the outcry is ignored.

Hvy Fort is not unreasonable, in game terms, on a epic boss. Neither is deathbloc. They should be there. But, this former effects a large number of the masses. So, even though it is a more realistic and potentially manageable effect, there is a big outcry.

end fights should be setup to engage all party members, not just the guy with the big stick. There should be a role for rogues as well. It does not necessarily have to be big sticking the boss or supporting it. Why don't we ever see important locks that need picking or devices dealt with?




Fortitude is not.

[Lord_Thanatos]

Thanks Eladrin for explaining all that...

To the others: You may not agree with the devs thinking, but you can't just say they are "making it up as they go along". Seems like they definitely had a plan in mind when they raised fortification levels...

My tactics barbarian will take Improved Sunder now. Let's see if that helps

So forcing a class that already had low representation in general, to require other players to boost their dps to a none-awful level, while just about giving nothing else in return, is what they had in mind?

Also how long as opportunist been avalible? How many rogues have questioned whether it was working correctly and they just now realize it's broken?

[grodon9999]

Thanks Eladrin for explaining all that...

To the others: You may not agree with the devs thinking, but you can't just say they are "making it up as they go along". Seems like they definitely had a plan in mind when they raised fortification levels...

I'm sorry, it's all too random and poorly thought out to believe they actually have a plan besides what'll affect sales in the DDO Store. These boss changes were a direct result of the caster buffs from U9 yet Turbine makes changes that affect casters less than they effect melees.

My tactics barbarian will take Improved Sunder now. Let's see if that helps

Any melee who has the feat room and can get a reasonable DC should do so.

[MyHumps]

barbarians paladins rangers and rogues. VERY few of them will take improved sunder. so not ALL melees.
opportunist - not working on sneak so irrelevant
condemnation x5 for 50% - i've only ever seen it once so i'm fairly certain that the 10% procrate is a myth
25% jade strike - obscene will saves on the devil bosses. so unless you want a monk to gimp their dps into oblivion continually spamming that then no.
touch of despair, NOT TOUCH OF DEATH, -> few dark monks have the wis to make it work consistently. and beyond that few monk builds can build for the wis to make it work and still have the dps/to-hit to do enough to matter.

so no. their fort is now 80%. -10% sometimes if there's a melee with improved sunder in their build, which will still be a rare thing to get off since very few builds incorporate a shatter item <discounting those w/ marilith chain ofc>.

the fort needs to be put back where it was as currently it marginalizes rogues to the point where they are not, and SHOULD not, be welcome on most elite raids.

I'm afraid I don't know very much about monks so I'm not going to argue with that but why wouldn't you take improved sunder if you're a melee? All of the classes you mentioned above can fit in improved sunder somewhere. It's one feat that improves the DPS for everyone. Barbarians can drop stunning blow for improved sunder, fighters have a bajillion feats for it, rangers and paladins if they were smart would make room fort it. It just boggles my mind why someone wouldn't take a feat that improves everyones dps.

[grodon9999]

... because they can't contribute much if the rest of the team doesn't bring certain feats to the table.

Exactly!

[altrocks]

Thanks Eladrin for explaining all that...

To the others: You may not agree with the devs thinking, but you can't just say they are "making it up as they go along". Seems like they definitely had a plan in mind when they raised fortification levels...

My tactics barbarian will take Improved Sunder now. Let's see if that helps

It's hard to defend that position when the devs openly admit they are playing it by ear on a number of issues. They may have an overall GOAL in mind when they do something, but that's hardly the same as a plan.

My GOAL might be to become a doctor. My PLAN might be to buy an online degree and read a few Surgery For Dummies books. Extremely large difference.

[LafoMamone]

If people are working together to reduce fortification, those numbers are able to be significantly lowered or even reduced all the way to zero, and all of the physical DPS goes up.

You are hitting us with high boss HP/fort basically to make Improved Sunder mandatory. Rogues will vastly underperform without someone spamming Imp Sunder, and Touch of Despair will NEVER land on an elite/epic boss with crazy high fort saves without quite a few Imp. Sunders softening him up.

And you've once again shown that clerics are the red-headed stepchildren of divine spellcasting.