Either lower the fortification for raid bosses, or...

[brzytki]

This is incorrect. Every time Condemnation procs, the stack increases and the 20 second timer will restart. It's a 10% proc chance on taking damage.

A 50% fortified monster with a -50% fortification effect will be at 0% fortification.


It has stacking fort save reduction attached to it, even on successful saves. If you're still having trouble landing it after working that stack up to -15, there are several ways to increase the save DC. (Shatter weapons, higher strength, Kensei, various Tactics enhancements.)

Shintao monks can also use Jade Strike on devil bosses to lower their fortification by 25% as well, on a failed Will save. That's a bit tougher to land though. Against non-devil bosses, the dark monks have Touch of Despair available for 25% (and Improved Sunder makes it more likely to land). Opportunist also reduces opponent fortification by 10%, but that's personal only.


Every Pit Fiend and Horned Devil raid boss' fortification is currently 50% on normal, 65% on hard, and 80% on elite. Epic Velah's fortification is 50%. Epic Lailat's fortification is 80%. Even the Lord of Blades left his heavy fort item at home, and is sitting at 80% (even though he really should have the Improved Fort feat).

If people are working together to reduce fortification, those numbers are able to be significantly lowered or even reduced all the way to zero, and all of the physical DPS goes up.


There is a strong desire for tanking characters to be welcome in more difficult raids. The Lord of Blades and Master Artificer encounters were built with this in mind.

We also like things like Improved Sunder and the other active fort reducing attacks having value. Currently Condemnation is the biggest single source of potential fort reduction, but it's less reliable than the active attacks.

We want to encourage teamwork for these high end encounters when possible. It's a sacrifice for me to take Improved Sunder and use it, but it helps everyone. (Even the guy casting Disintegrate.)


The increase in fight length is the part that casters have a tougher time dealing with than melee, since melee characters don't run out of gas in the same way.


Opportunist should improve sneak attack percentages on creatures that are not inherently immune to them. (Undead, elementals, etc.) At this time it does not permit sneak attacks on sneak attack immune opponents.

Oh, a dev's response. And an informative one as well.

Just to be clear: does all fort reducers stack additively? Cause there have been some tests and the conclusion was that opportunist stacked multiplicatively, meaning 5 percentage points on 50% fort mob.

[grodon9999]

There is a strong desire for tanking characters to be welcome in more difficult raids. The Lord of Blades and Master Artificer encounters were built with this in mind.

That must be why AC tanking works so well in these raids. Oh wait . . .

We also like things like Improved Sunder and the other active fort reducing attacks having value. Currently Condemnation is the biggest single source of potential fort reduction, but it's less reliable than the active attacks.

In other words . . . Clerics stay home.

[MyHumps]

You sure about that Velah number - that 'feels' low.

So you've pretty much confirmed we need to bring 3 people with us who can lower fortification just so a rogue isn't worthless on epic/elite. With these changes you're blatantly saying "rogues don't belong in Elite/Epic raids" and excluding an entire class is a horrible way to run a game.

Were they considered that over-powered that this needed to be done?

All classes are effected equally by reductions in for, Grodon, therefore I think it goes without saying that it's beneficial to the entire party to reduce fort - not just the rogues. Yes rogues are hit more than any other class, however it's a generally a good idea to reduce the fort so rogues get sneak attack and also so that you don't have to play "crit bingo". Tactics, strategy, etc you wanted them well there you go. Time to play smart.

[QuantumFX]

Any chance we’ll see Eagle Claw promoted to a fort reducer? It’s pretty sad that all those elemental strikes have been demoted into uselessness.

[grodon9999]

All classes are effected equally by reductions in fort, Grodon, therefore I think it goes without saying that it's beneficial to the entire party to reduce fort - not just the rogues. Yes rogues are hit more than any other class, however it's a generally a good idea to reduce the fort so rogues get sneak attack and also so that you don't have to play "crit bingo". Tactics, strategy, etc you wanted them well there you go. Time to play smart.

Those two statements contradict each other.

Rogues lose the most DPS, monks the least (well, casters . . .).

best tactics and strategy now is to not bother to bring rogues in the first place.

[altrocks]

Opportunist should improve sneak attack percentages on creatures that are not inherently immune to them. (Undead, elementals, etc.) At this time it does not permit sneak attacks on sneak attack immune opponents.

Edit: After doing some investigation, I can confirm that there is indeed a bug with sneak attack and opportunist. It's not always being applied correctly.

I thought this had been known for a while. Good that you guys caught it now, but really, it's been pretty obvious, especially since U11 hit. My rogue sees crits without SA on non-immune mobs ALL the time (thanks to opportunist, I'm assuming).

Fixing that bug will make a LOT of us feel easier with the fort changes. Brings elite raid bosses down to 70% and down to around 50% with even one successful fort reduction on them from the party.

[grodon9999]

I've done some investigation, and I can confirm that there's a bug with opportunist and sneak attack.

Test Improve Sunder while you're at it. I got hit by it but the Jailer in ToD and my fort didn't drop. I believe others have tested this in PvP and saw the same thing.

[krogyy]

If you want ridiculous, why are epic trash mobs effectively blanket immune to charm. It makes no sense in game terms. We are not just talking epic spell resistance here.

easy explanation: protection from good.

besides if heavy fort is reasonable so is deathblock. also it is not a stretch to imagine epic mobs could have elemental absorption items too. not to mention that the casters should keep the brutes buffed with long duration buffs like resists, GH, freedom of movement and true seeing.

would you like to play like that?

[tinyelvis]

No, the root is a seemingly not existing vision of how the game should work and more importantly a lack of knowledge how it is played. The eSoS (especially in its original form) is probably just the boldest misstep that went on the servers. I completely agree with grodon here that the balancing steps taken in the last updates seem painfully random and direction-less. It pains me even more to see that stuff like the bravery streak and the artificer class are really well designed so it can't really be a lack of skill. The fort topic was even big on the Lamannia forums but what do I know.

It's not just Fort, elite/epic MA and LoB are so horribly overtuned (which is not the same as 'complex') that I want to throw up just from reading the pot-requirements. And while some people even cheer at that I call it a declaration of creative bankruptcy regarding raids. LFMs for pug-raids on Ghallanda have almost died, it's actually hard to even find one for a Reaver. eLailat and eVelah are boring beat-downs which are resource-intensive for the healers in the worst case. Rogues find themselves with sad damage and just borderline survivable in elite raids. Casters still roam free with just another easy-to-apply-impossible-to-resist DoT spell.

I love how DDO is not as polished and streamlined as other games but taking a step back and looking at the mess that overall balance is at the moment makes me sad.

I mean why do we even accept for example that casters can solo the gnolls in wizking in 1-2 minutes while a melee can not even hope to take down one pack without serious investment in consumables? It's gross and while probably within the strange spirit of the traditional dnd rules where casters rule supreme it's not a bearing concept for an MMO (and not even for a PnP).

If casters are so supreme, why is it that shroud raid Lfm's still only take two. Why don't epic quest invites deny all but casters. I'll tell you the reason. Ninety plus percent of folks playing casters can't play to the level you imply. It takes a lot of experience and skill to play at that level.

With melee, you only need wield the big stick and have someone point you toward trouble. Therefore a much larger population of players quickly gain what is needed to be super successful to the point were balance is needed. Unfortunately when that happens, also a much larger group of unhappy people whine.

Sure a small minority of casters are capable of doing some incredible things. You might be envious of there abilities. But nerfing their skill based talents won't bring back the once dominance of some particular favored stick. And, fortitude certainly was not raised because of these few uber casters.

[MyHumps]

Those two statements contradict each other.

Rogues lose the most DPS, monks the least (well, casters . . .).

best tactics and strategy now is to not bother to bring rogues in the first place.

I think you know what I meant. Every class has weaknesses and strengths. If you feel your rogue is useless now play another class, or learn how to play towards the weaknesses of that class. We all know if you've been playing this game long enough that everything changes eventually, TRing into another class or playing another one of your alts is something that will happen lot; unless you're stubborn and you refuse to adapt. Reducing fort by a mere 30% right now to make rogues competitive is not that difficult.

[Bodic]

I've done some investigation, and I can confirm that there's a bug with opportunist and sneak attack.

That is good. Not be a BUG, but how about the other fortification reducing abilities.

[Ciaran]

The raiding/end-game is all about DPS, rogues need to be able to contribute to this or they are pointless other than a splash-class. U11 Fortification has made them this way.

I think you are giving Turbine way too much credit regarding their long-term planning. I myself think they're making it up as they go along..

+1 for hitting the nail on the head.

[Dolphious]

First of all thanks for the engaging response! It's great to see what the some of the reasoning behind these changes is.

<various ways to decrease boss fort>
If people are working together to reduce fortification, those numbers are able to be significantly lowered or even reduced all the way to zero, and all of the physical DPS goes up.

Those are all good points, and it's probably true that a team built around fort reduction could probably do pretty well. The problem is that building an end-game character that is so dependent on a both a certain party set up and effective use of special abilities by other people is a dubious endeavor. In other words, why make a rogue that needs an FVS to reduce fort (in addition to heal) rather than just make an FVS that can do as much, probably more, damage with DP in addition to healing and having more HP?

There is a strong desire for tanking characters to be welcome in more difficult raids. The Lord of Blades and Master Artificer encounters were built with this in mind.

I guess if by "tanking character" you mean a WF FVS shield blocking DOT tank. Maybe there's a handful of uber geared AC tanks out there that could passably tank Lord of Blades, but even with them it's a riskier endeavor than a shield blocking dot tank.

We want to encourage teamwork for these high end encounters when possible. It's a sacrifice for me to take Improved Sunder and use it, but it helps everyone. (Even the guy casting Disintegrate.)

The increase in fight length is the part that casters have a tougher time dealing with than melee, since melee characters don't run out of gas in the same way.

That's true as far as it goes (to what extent casters really are limited by SP they lose effectiveness in a longer fight), but when significant part of the reason the fights are longer is because Melee damage has been decreased the effect is largely mitigated.

[grodon9999]

This post is so full of "win."

The increase in fight length is the part that casters have a tougher time dealing with than melee, since melee characters don't run out of gas in the same way.

So you're admitting the ridiculous HP we see now is a result of U9 making casters over-powered.

How exactly does fortification affect them?

[krogyy]

Test Improve Sunder while you're at it. I got hit by it but the Jailer in ToD and my fort didn't drop. I believe others have tested this in PvP and saw the same thing.

improved sunder works for me, at least against the training dummy. i see both crits and sneaks after i land it.

[grodon9999]

improved sunder works for me, at least against the training dummy. i see both crits and sneaks after i land it.

Very interesting and thank you. I wonder if it simply doesn't work on PCs . . .

[altrocks]

improved sunder works for me, at least against the training dummy. i see both crits and sneaks after i land it.

Wait, you're seeing SA damage on training dummy? I have to check this out. Dummy is an inanimate construct and should be completely immune to SA damage no matter what fort it has. I see crits on it with my rogue (opportunist) once in a while, but never SA damage. Fort bugs are the new handwraps. :-P

[Tinco]

Sure a small minority of casters are capable of doing some incredible things. You might be envious of there abilities. But nerfing their skill based talents won't bring back the once dominance of some particular favored stick. And, fortitude certainly was not raised because of these few uber casters.

I have a wizard, a sorc and a fvs (so no, I'm all but die-hard melee). I soloed wiz king entry hall one day after capping the wf sorc without a shroud item, an epic item or any other mentionable loot (a VI 75% clickie, flesh render guards and a random blindness immunity item are enough). This has nothing to do with envy or skill, it's just the game. It's the lacking skillset of the monsters, the exploitation possibilities of ranged attacks, the limitedness of the AI, blanket immunities for players via buffs and loads of unresistable damage from casters. Once one acquires a minimum of meta knowledge about the game he or she can do the same.

It's not about dominance, it's about reasonable possibilities of every class to participate in all areas of the game. A certain level of fairness disregarding the choice of class would be great but at the moment I feel that this is not the case.

[MyHumps]

I think the only problem we have here is that people refuse to adapt. Once the bug for fortification not adding sneak attacks for rogues is fixed there are multiple ways to reduce fortification to practically nothing. Unless my numbers are wrong then it looks like

25% jade strike
10% improved sunder
10% opportunist
50% condemnation
+25% on nondevil bosses from touch of death

for a total of 95% on devil bosses and 120% on non-devil bosses with touch of death. That SHOULD mean you're guaranteed -20% fortification on ALL bosses since every melee should start incorporating improved sunder in their build. I personally don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

[grodon9999]

I have a wizard, a sorc and a fvs (so no, I'm all but die-hard melee). I soloed wiz king entry hall one day after capping the wf sorc without a shroud item, an epic item or any other mentionable loot (a VI 75% clickie, flesh render guards and a random blindness immunity item are enough). This has nothing to do with envy or skill, it's just the game. It's the lacking skillset of the monsters, the exploitation possibilities of ranged attacks, the limitedness of the AI, blanket immunities for players via buffs and loads of unresistable damage from casters. Once one acquires a minimum of meta knowledge about the game he or she can do the same.

It's not about dominance, it's about reasonable possibilities of every class to participate in all areas of the game. A certain level of fairness disregarding the choice of class would be great but at the moment I feel that this is not the case.

I don't give a hoot what casters can do as long as no other class is rendered a waste of a party slot via a game change that the devs admit was made to affect casters (tougher raid bosses) yet they throw in a change at the same time (fortification) that in no way affects the over-poweredness of certain classes that they were trying to adjust in the first place.

No class should get 80% of their teeth kicked out just because you click the Elite/Epic checkbox before entering a raid. This is as bad as the blanket immunites that casters had to deal with for years.