Either lower the fortification for raid bosses, or...

[Qezuzu]

Turbine. You there. Yes, you. Come here for a moment.

What compelled you to give elite devil raid bosses such high fortification? There are oh so many reasons this is a bad idea.

Before anyone says Shield of Condemnation (which can lower fort by 50%) or Improved Sunder, Shield of Condemnation, I'm told, lasts 20 seconds. In order to get the enemy fortification lowered by 50% percent (and the math is not well known. Does a 50% fortified mob get lowered to 0%, or 25%?), a supposedly 5% proc chance must proc five times within 20 seconds, before the timer resets. The only boss with enough attacks per second for this to be reliable is Queen Lailat, who doesn't have very high fort after the update, anyway.

Improved Sunder is more consistent, but elite devils have seriously high fort saves. >40 I think. Don't quote me on that, though. And even then, it's a mere 15% decrease (and again, would a 50% mob go to 35% or 42.5%?)

The reasons why such higher fort (+65%) are bad are pretty clear, but I'll outline them:

• Casters are extremely high DPS. Fortification only affects melees, thus the gap between caster DPS and melee DPS has been increased. This is just plain bad for game balance. Casters can already solo epic dungeons without much effort, most can self heal, and all can do heavy damage at a range.

Solution? If you really, really, REALLY must keep that fortification, give raid bosses a percent-based elemental absorbtion (including light damage) to bring casters down to earth a bit more. And because we don't want even longer raid fights, lower the raid boss HP, too.

Of course, the obvious solution is to return the fortification to reasonable levels.

• Rogues are the most hurt by the fortification increase. Even very-high DPS strength rogues get most of their DPS from sneak attacks, which are blocked by fortification.

Rogues are intensely high DPS on 0% fort mobs, and are in the upper rings of the DPS ladder against 50% devils. Not anymore. If you are bringing in a rogue into an elite raid, against a boss with +75% fort, you've just lowered the DPS of your party. You'd be better off with just about any other class. That's the sad truth.

Multiple changes can fix this. LOWERING THE FORTIFICATION BACK DOWN AGAIN is the most obvious and requested, but... if you really have to...

Assassins are the most vicious and efficient killers of epic (non undead, construct, elemental) trash, second only to well played casters. Epic Midnight's Greetings, for rogues that have it, now gives +2 to assassinate DC's. Assassinate is a handy maneuvur that will force any mob in front of an Assassin to make a fort save (usually +38), or die instantly. Like the Monk Touch of Death, it can proc more than once. An affected mob may have to make as many as three successive fort saves, or die instantly. Or, one can assassinate more than one mob at the same time, if they're close to each other.

Now, when I hear the word assassin, I don't think of a blood thirst serial killer. I think of one that targets high-value political and military leaders, and has their execution down to a science. This would include ELITE DEVIL RAID BOSSES, who rogues are now ineffective against.

The Assassin ToD set is junk. 5% chance for one negative level, iirc. Any rogue will just use ravager, Shintao, etc. How about it gets improved? New effect for the ToD set: "Those with the Assassin III prestige enhancement will recieve an additional benefit: any time your sneak attacks are blocked by fortification, you have a 30% chance to ignore the fortification and sneak attack normally." There. A ToD set is improved and rogues are desired again. I know, for those that don't have that ring, it means running ToD... just run it on normal.

This does not, however, include Mechanics or Acrobats. Though they are in a distinct minority, they should still be considered. Perhaps give rogues an enhancement line to bypass fortification, at a 1/2/3/4 AP cost to bypass 15/20/25/30 percent fortification. This change would mean the ToD set would have to remain the same.

Well, that's the two main problems with high fortification. Casters are even more powerful, and one class is far more affected than any other. Mostly the rogue part. I have a very well-geared rogue, so I may have focused on that part more... at least I don't have any items left to obtain from devil raids.

The most obvious solution is to put the fortification levels back but if not...

Before anyone says Shouldn't supremely powerful devil leaders have enough experience to invest in fortification? Even lowly level nine players can get 100%:

Shouldn't a powerful devil leader know better than to focus on one tank when +7 other people are shredding his ass? I agree, if I were an evil devil general, I would be sure I was well armored, but game balance is more important than being realistic.

[grodon9999]

Shouldn't a powerful devil leader know better than to focus on one tank when +7 other people are shredding his ass? I agree, if I were an evil devil general, I would be sure I was well armored, but game balance is more important than being realistic.

This is the point that many people cannot get through their thick skulls.

50% fort was fine and didn't marginalize any particular class to the point of uselessness.

[Mighty_Bozo]

I'd say fortification shouldn't be a chance of reducing all damage, I'd say it should be a percent reduction of the extra damage. That way all attacks against a 80% fortification mob would still incur sneak attacks, but they'd be reduced to 20% of original damage, so if your rogue assassin can dish out 80 damage per sneak attack you'd get 16 extra damage, wich can be considered a good increase. Also opportunist could actually work for reducing bosses fortification towards sneak attacks, along with precision. Also I think Wrack construct should be changed to work on any kind of mob, even if that means changing enhancement name and pre-reqs.

[Kmnh]

The extra fortification is a khopesh/esos/kensei III nerf. The idea is to make sword-and-board tanking viable, or even required. That's why they raised the boss damage to 120-150 a tick, also.


People are still adapting. Endgame guilds and powergamers are leveling and gearing their tank builds, and soon the raids will be almost as easy-buttoned as pre u9 with intimitanks.


Turbine seems to be trying to lower the grind. Before u9, "good" casters would grind out multiple lives between wizard, bard and cleric to get insane DCs. They buffed necro spells and nerfed enchantments/conjurations into niche use, and now a 1st life wizard is perfectly fine. They nerfed the heck out of TWF so people wouldn't need to run 60 shrouds to be an effective melee. They made a new melee race that seriously outclasses the Warforged, so people wouldn't grind out the insane healing amp/dr required for a good WF tank.

In the end, it might work out for the better. I still want the real epic quests back though

[Tinco]

TR'ing to adapt. I really try to make playing a melee fun for me but I can't say Turbine is helping me out with that. Already shifted 70% playtime to the WF FvS I capped a week ago because it's so much fun and brutally effective.

[grodon9999]

The extra fortification is a khopesh/esos/kensei III nerf. The idea is to make sword-and-board tanking viable, or even required. That's why they raised the boss damage to 120-150 a tick, also.


People are still adapting. Endgame guilds and powergamers are leveling and gearing their tank builds, and soon the raids will be almost as easy-buttoned as pre u9 with intimitanks.


Turbine seems to be trying to lower the grind. Before u9, "good" casters would grind out multiple lives between wizard, bard and cleric to get insane DCs. They buffed necro spells and nerfed enchantments/conjurations into niche use, and now a 1st life wizard is perfectly fine. They nerfed the heck out of TWF so people wouldn't need to run 60 shrouds to be an effective melee. They made a new melee race that seriously outclasses the Warforged, so people wouldn't grind out the insane healing amp/dr required for a good WF tank.

In the end, it might work out for the better. I still want the real epic quests back though

Please let me know how well Sword-n-bored tanking works out against Velah or Lailat

What does any of the above have to do with fortification?

[tinyelvis]

I agree there is a fort problem here. Why don't all intelligent end bosses have 100% like any 12th level toon.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Please let me know how well Sword-n-bored tanking works out against Velah or Lailat

I laughed just at the thought of going S&B against Velah.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

• Casters are extremely high DPS. Fortification only affects melees, thus the gap between caster DPS and melee DPS has been increased. This is just plain bad for game balance. Casters can already solo epic dungeons without much effort, most can self heal, and all can do heavy damage at a range.

Solution? If you really, really, REALLY must keep that fortification, give raid bosses a percent-based elemental absorbtion (including light damage) to bring casters down to earth a bit more. And because we don't want even longer raid fights, lower the raid boss HP, too.

I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but before Sorcs were given the Savants in U9, they were mediocre DPS against raid bosses. They finally threw them a bone and now you want them to take it back so that tanks can feel better?

Also, as per D&D, casters are supposed to have God-like DPS and abilities at lvl 20, in DDO they have neither of those. So, please try to shift you "wah wah if they nerfed tanks, now nerf casters too" to a more logical and cogent argument.

[grodon9999]

I agree there is a fort problem here. Why don't all intelligent end bosses have 100% like any 12th level toon.

Because it makes rogues useless.

[Mercureal]

I agree there is a fort problem here. Why don't all intelligent end bosses have 100% like any 12th level toon.

Probably because they have 350,000 HP, or about the equivalent of 1200 ordinary 12th level toons.

[cdemeritt]

Heavy fort and more hitpoints....

Has been the rally call for all toons over lvl 11... anyone with less than 100% in a raid is laughed at...

So why do you expect raid bosses not to have Heavy Fort? or to dump their con stat?


I find it funny...

[grodon9999]

I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but before Sorcs were given the Savants in U9, they were mediocre DPS against raid bosses. They finally threw them a bone and now you want them to take it back so that tanks can feel better?

Also, as per D&D, casters are supposed to have God-like DPS and abilities at lvl 20, in DDO they have neither of those. So, please try to shift you "wah wah if they nerfed tanks, now nerf casters too" to a more logical and cogent argument.

i think you're reading him wrong . . . post U9 casters got a lot more powerful with sorcs arguably the best DPS in the game (I was once in a 9 minute Elite VoD PUG with 10 casters in it, was insane DPS).

As a result of the U9 changes many raids now became Trivial on the highest levels. Raid bosses who were supposed to be scary were affectionately being called "loot pinatas."

So turbine Doubles the HP (a bad idea) and increases the fortification from 0-50% to about 80% (an even worse idea). This change disproportionally affects melees (rogues are screwed the most) as casters aren't affected by fortification.

Turbine's decision to make it harder for over-powered casters had (likely) unintended spill-overs effects that have made rogues all but useless in regards to boss DPS. If this was the issue they were trying to address there were better ways to do it.

If

[honkuimushi]

I said this before in another thread-- split fortification for bosses into 2 parts, crits and Sneak Attacks. Leave fortification where it is for crits. That makes khopeshes, ESoS, and falchions a little less powerful, but tends to buff bastard swords, dwarven axes, greatswords, and greataxes. It also lowers the damage of Kensai III and Frenzied Berzerkers a bit.


On the other hand, put Sneak Attack fortification back where it was. That allows Rogues to still be high DPS on bosses.

One thing that worries me a bit is that with the increased fort, increased hp, new bosses that hit harder, and the new UI is that Rogues are getting hit doubly and everyone knows it. The increased fort takes away their greatest offensive ability when it counts most, They are also the most strapped for hp of any melee class. They get a d6 and no class Toughness. They also tend to be MAD so that spending more than 10 build points on Con is pretty tough. The fact that elves and drow are fairly popular choices for Rogues just makes it tougher. Warchanters and Artificers ate least get extra hp through their PrE.

So you take a class that tends to have a hard time getting high hp, increase damage in some fights making hp more valuable, give people a tool to enforce hp thresholds, and nerf that class' DPS in boss fights. I am not sure that that is a good idea.

[grodon9999]

Heavy fort and more hitpoints....

Has been the rally call for all toons over lvl 11... anyone with less than 100% in a raid is laughed at...

So why do you expect raid bosses not to have Heavy Fort? or to dump their con stat?


I find it funny...

Shouldn't a powerful devil leader know better than to focus on one tank when +7 other people are shredding his ass? I agree, if I were an evil devil general, I would be sure I was well armored, but game balance is more important than being realistic.

This is the point that many people cannot get through their thick skulls.

50% fort was fine and didn't marginalize any particular class to the point of uselessness.

Sigh . . .

[grodon9999]

I said this before in another thread-- split fortification for bosses into 2 parts, crits and Sneak Attacks.

I could live with that.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Because it makes rogues useless.

I know that Rogues have been traditionally treated as melee in DDO, but they're not traditionally so in PnP. I'm painfully aware that DDO != PnP, but, could it be that Turbine wants to encourage traditional PnP roles to classes? Rogues: thief/assasins, Barb/Ftr Melee tanking, Monks/Pally support DPS, rangers Ranged DPS and casters the best DPS (as it should be, btw) and bards all-around support. The problem right now is that everyone and their grandma HAS TO BE either dishing out max DPS or be healing, but there's no use for any roles in between -- which is something they might be trying to address.

[grodon9999]

I know that Rogues have been traditionally treated as melee in DDO, but they're not traditionally so in PnP. I'm painfully aware that DDO != PnP, but, could it be that Turbine wants to encourage traditional PnP roles to classes? Rogues: thief/assasins, Barb/Ftr Melee tanking, Monks/Pally support DPS, rangers Ranged DPS and casters the best DPS (as it should be, btw) and bards all-around support. The problem right now is that everyone and their grandma HAS TO BE either dishing out max DPS or be healing, but there's no use for any roles in between -- which is something they might be trying to address.

The raiding/end-game is all about DPS, rogues need to be able to contribute to this or they are pointless other than a splash-class. U11 Fortification has made them this way.

I think you are giving Turbine way too much credit regarding their long-term planning. I myself think they're making it up as they go along..

[Dolphious]

I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but before Sorcs were given the Savants in U9, they were mediocre DPS against raid bosses. They finally threw them a bone and now you want them to take it back so that tanks can feel better?

Also, as per D&D, casters are supposed to have God-like DPS and abilities at lvl 20, in DDO they have neither of those. So, please try to shift you "wah wah if they nerfed tanks, now nerf casters too" to a more logical and cogent argument.

Just to clarify, you're saying that you think casters *should* be so powerful at lvl 20 as to make all other classes irrelevant? I get that god-like arcanes are a staple of pulp fantasy which was reflected to an extent in earlier versions of D&D, but can't you see why this is a terrible idea in an MMO?

Separately I /sign separating crit fort and SA fort. The existence of (e)SoS requires either a major increase in general power (so other styles can keep up) or a nerf to critical damage. That may be unfortunate because it hurts other crit-based builds that don't use an SoS, but I don't see any way around it. But there's no need to nerf sneak attack along with it. SA is in no way overpowered considering how situational it is and how much you have to sacrifice in terms of base DPS and HP to get a lot of it.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Separately I /sign separating crit fort and SA fort. The existence of (e)SoS requires either a major increase in general power (so other styles can keep up) or a nerf to critical damage. That may be unfortunate because it hurts other crit-based builds that don't use an SoS, but I don't see any way around it. But there's no need to nerf sneak attack along with it. SA is in no way overpowered considering how situational it is and how much you have to sacrifice in terms of base DPS and HP to get a lot of it.

I think it's humorous and sad that I think every one knows that the root cause of this is eSoS. I don't know what the devs thought when they were designing it. It's been Nerfed directly and by proxy, twice, and still one of the best if not the best DPS weapon in the game. Also, they could've fixed it before every self-respecting melee had one. Now it's too late and they know if they they bring eSoS down to earth the via crit range or base dmg on it, it will be pages upon pages in these forums full of complaints and not-so-friendly language. So, instead they resorted to nerfing every other melee who doesn't happen to have an eSoS (including rogues).