Looking for Feedback on WF 16/2/2 Warchanter Build

[PurpleTimb]

As the title says, I'd like some opinions on the build below.

Intent is for DPS and buffing for a 3-man all WF static group. The other members of the group will be a Lord of Blades FVS and an 18 Wiz/2 Rogue.

2 rogue is taken for evasion, not trapping.
With focus on decent DPS and needing high dex for reflex saves, TWF made sense. That drives the feat selection, leaving no room for healing metamagics. This is a loss, but not a big one as the other party members are WF and are all self-healing.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
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Penultimate Bard
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Female
(2 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 250
Spell Points: 450 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 16
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    21
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         17                    18
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma             12                    12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    15
Bluff                 1                     1
Concentration         5                    27
Diplomacy             1                     1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                    24
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            1                     1
Jump                  6                    14
Listen               -2                    -2
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             6                    13
Perform               n/a                  24
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     0
Spot                  2                     4
Swim                  2                     5
Tumble                6                     7
Use Magic Device      5                    24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)

Thanks for any feedback.

[karl_k0ch]

Looks solid. A few minor tweaks (also personal preference) below.

Feat Progression:
I wouldn't use two weapons before getting ITWF, thus pushing TWF on your split further behind; being able to use PA (and benefiting from WF:Slash) from 1-11 (or 9, see below).
Also, I'd take Khopeshes after ITWF. You can go twf without Khopesh, but TWF'ing Khopeshes without ITWF is rather lackluster, imho.

Class Progression:
I'd proably go with taking Fighter at 9, Rogue at 10, rest bard. This would allow you getting TWF and ITWF at 9 (one regular, one Fighter Bonus), and Khopesh at 12. Taking Rogue immediately after that is nice for your total skill points.

Skills/Stat Spread:
I don't consider Concentration to be nessecary on a melee bard, but that's just me. I usually buff when not standing toe-to-toe with the mobs - either I fight through a short fight and rehaste and rerage afterwards, or, if it's a longer fight, I step back because other melees have the aggro.

So I'd consider to drop Int to 8 and going with 16 Str. One could think about dropping Con by one, but I don't see any obvious other lacking stats.

[PurpleTimb]

Looks solid. A few minor tweaks (also personal preference) below.

Feat Progression:
I wouldn't use two weapons before getting ITWF, thus pushing TWF on your split further behind; being able to use PA (and benefiting from WF:Slash) from 1-11 (or 9, see below).
Also, I'd take Khopeshes after ITWF. You can go twf without Khopesh, but TWF'ing Khopeshes without ITWF is rather lackluster, imho.

Class Progression:
I'd proably go with taking Fighter at 9, Rogue at 10, rest bard. This would allow you getting TWF and ITWF at 9 (one regular, one Fighter Bonus), and Khopesh at 12. Taking Rogue immediately after that is nice for your total skill points.

Skills/Stat Spread:
I don't consider Concentration to be nessecary on a melee bard, but that's just me. I usually buff when not standing toe-to-toe with the mobs - either I fight through a short fight and rehaste and rerage afterwards, or, if it's a longer fight, I step back because other melees have the aggro.

So I'd consider to drop Int to 8 and going with 16 Str. One could think about dropping Con by one, but I don't see any obvious other lacking stats.

Thanks for your comments.

I always hate it when someone asks for advice and then argues with the giver or said advice, so I'll try not to do that. But I will explain my reasoning and then you or anyone else can tell me if I'm way off base.

The leveling order is a bit hap-hazard. I wanted to get Warchanter I a soon as I could, but also wanted rogue 2 early for evasion in the middle levels. I think you're right I could rearrange those a bit to improve it some. I think I was worried about not having enough bard levels in the middle of the game, so I kept on with bard after getting rogue 2, but you're probably right that fighter earlier would be better.

I agree with you on the iTWF and khopeshes. I had intended this guy to use a Carnefex until iTWF comes along and then switch to khopeshes.

I see your point on concentration, however my thought was that it would be used for UMDing repair and recon scrolls in an emergency. Also, since I can't fit in quicken, I'm thinking concentration will be good for the panic moments when he needs to fire off a heal in the midst of melee. It makes sense in my mind, but I could probably be convinced otherwise if others think it's a waste.

Thanks again for your comments, you've given me a bit to think about. If anyone else has any suggestions I'd appreciate some other points of view.

[karl_k0ch]

The leveling order is a bit hap-hazard. I wanted to get Warchanter I a soon as I could, but also wanted rogue 2 early for evasion in the middle levels. I think you're right I could rearrange those a bit to improve it some. I think I was worried about not having enough bard levels in the middle of the game, so I kept on with bard after getting rogue 2, but you're probably right that fighter earlier would be better.

What you say makes sense. I did not check precisely what the middle bard levels give, so let's have a look together which bard levels give substantial bonuses:

Bard 6 unlocks Warchanter I, which is great for everyone's DPS.
Bard 7 gets Access to Level 7 spells. Usually most important to me is Haste, but since you are in a static group with a Wizzie, Displacement and Good Hope might be more interesting at that momenet. +1 to damage through enhancements.
Bard 8 unlocks another +1 to hi through enhancements, and tier 3 of scroll mastery.
Bard 9 grants inspire Greatness, i.e. mainly a stacking +2 to-hit.
Bard 10 gives access to level 4 spells, of which I value FoM and DD the most.
Bard 12 grants access to Warchanter II, which adds some versatility. Also, +1 damage through enhancements.
Bard 13 finally grants access to Level 5 spells. Also +1 to hit through enhancements.
Bard 14 has another IC tier, i.e. +1 damage, +1 to-hit.

I did not list all bonuses, but those who are of importance to me as a melee bard. At the moment, it looks to me that the bonuses of bard 10 and 11 are only marginal and could be delayed, but I might be overestimating the other caster's spell books.

[bashemgud]

Ultimate DPS bard, and a blast to play. You lose very little by taking 14 bard only, and instead gain additional SA dmg with 4 rog lvls

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220822

[PurpleTimb]

Ultimate DPS bard, and a blast to play. You lose very little by taking 14 bard only, and instead gain additional SA dmg with 4 rog lvls

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220822

So you're saying give up 2 levels of bard in order to get +1d6 sneak damage and more skills on a character that I've already said will not be a trapper? I don't think so.

Did you miss the part where I said the party was all warforged?

[bashemgud]

You can easily adapt this built to WF, you just need to be a little more open minded ^^

i'm not forcing you to roll this WC. Do what ever you want with the info I gave you.

[bashemgud]

And taking Rog lvls does not necessarily mean you want to be a trapper ^^

You talked about dps, so I talked about more rog lvls. Simple math.

[PurpleTimb]

And taking Rog lvls does not necessarily mean you want to be a trapper ^^

You talked about dps, so I talked about more rog lvls. Simple math.

Okay, fair point. I guess I was more confrontational in my response than I intended. I just didn't see this as fitting really well with my build goals here. Madmatt's build concentrates on epic level trapping skills and maximizing DPS from rogue and halfling enhancements. At first glance I thought his build would lose a lot in the conversion to a WF, without the guile and halfling's companion.

I do want to go back and see what 2 vs 4 levels of rogue bring and how much you give up going from 16 to 15 or 14 bard.

From my rough glance at the DDO Wiki

2 rogue = evasion, 1d6+3 SA, haste boost I
4 rogue = uncanny dodge, 2d6+6 SA, haste boost II
Haste boost II would be very nice, and 2d6+6 isn't bad at all.

14 bard vs. 16 bard =
no inspire heroics (meh, who needs AC anyway?)
-50 SPs (so what?)
1 less 1st level and 1 less 5th level spell (no problem there)
no 6th level spells (slightly bigger deal, otto's and mass cure mod)

I think that's it. I thought I'd lose a +1 to hit and damage from the Inspire Courage song, but the wiki seems to say otherwise.

Looking at it again you don't really give up much in a DPS oriented bard build dropping all the way to 14 bard. All the important things lost are either healing or CC focused, neither of which are going to be very effective on this build.

This gives me some new ideas. If I can afford 6 levels of splash why not Kensai I or Assassin or Acrobat I?

Thanks for your comments. You've given me more food for thought. Anyone see anything obvious I've missed?

[CanuckWisdom]

Inspire heroics is +5 to saves too. I often think, Im not gonna bother to hand this out to anyone but the tank here... but then remember, anyone who might have a weak point in their saves could use it to avoid AOE spells full damage.

[PurpleTimb]

I think the save bonus is a resistance bonus, so it wouldn't stack with the standard +5 resist items that others would likely be wearing.