How to buff an Elf

[NaturalHazard]

Oh but what is the best way to buff an elf?.............. Reroll thats it!!

lol someone said they wanted someone to say it so........... there you go.

[Chai]

Wait why should elves beat a drows DC? I'd personally roll and elf wizard now over a drow and consider myself better off.

Drow should be the best sorcs. Elves the best wizards.

Give drow cha enhancements that lock out dex.

On topic:

and sure Half-orcs can (and probably should) be the hardest hitting melee but there needs to be a reason to roll an elf melee (besides just wanting to be penalized for playing a race you like).

Maybe give elves a precision enhancement that lowers fortification by spotting the vulnerable areas to strike. or maybe elfs should have a racial haste boost enhancement.

Elf melee...LOL Still have one of those. Still wondering what the heck I was thinking. Still too lazy to TR out of it.

Precision would be cool. Haste boost? naaaa. Theyd likely code it as doublestrike, which is better for THF.

[Shakanos]

Also for TR elves who stay elf in each life, get a free dragonmark feat and for each extra life as an elf an added tank to it at the appropriate level.

Racial based past lives (for all races, not just Elf) to go along with class past lives could be interesting. Would have to be fairly minor though, and some of the class past life benefits are already pretty niche.

[moritheil]

elves actually dont have it nearly as bad as drow. Elves with a 32 point build, and taking advantage of thier dragonmark can so far outshine drow its sad.

What they both need are as many suggested inherent feats like weapon finesse, a feat to add dex to dmg like artee kind of due with int, some increase to thier speed in running AND combat.

That's one way to take it.

Alternatively, trading off the idea that they are dexterous and graceful, we could give them a racial bonus to reflex saves, possibly even an enhancement line: 2 AP for +1, 4 points for +2, 6 points for +3.

If you ask what the main problem of having an elf is, people will reflexively reply "hit points." This adjustment doesn't alter their actual hit points, but addresses the fundamental issue of survivability by making them slightly more likely to save for reduced damage in big raid fights with lots of area damage being splashed around. Furthermore, unlike weapon finesse, which would be useless to a pure ranged or caster build, reflex saves would benefit all characters.

Basically elves have a major weakness that is their glaring issue, and while we shouldn't take that away, we can mitigate it in certain circumstances to try to make them viable choices.

[Fetchi]

That's one way to take it.

Alternatively, trading off the idea that they are dexterous and graceful, we could give them a racial bonus to reflex saves, possibly even an enhancement line: 2 AP for +1, 4 points for +2, 6 points for +3.

If you ask what the main problem of having an elf is, people will reflexively reply "hit points." This adjustment doesn't alter their actual hit points, but addresses the fundamental issue of survivability by making them slightly more likely to save for reduced damage in big raid fights with lots of area damage being splashed around. Furthermore, unlike weapon finesse, which would be useless to a pure ranged or caster build, reflex saves would benefit all characters.

Basically elves have a major weakness that is their glaring issue, and while we shouldn't take that away, we can mitigate it in certain circumstances to try to make them viable choices.

It's too easy to get a reflex save in the high 30s or low 40s on any race for this to make any difference in bringing the elf up to par with other races.

The real problem is elves get a +2 to DEX and a -2 to CON. The reason it's a fundamental problem is two reasons:

1. DEX means nothing right now.
2. CON means everything right now.

Let's address issue #1 first. DEX is only good for 3 things: Ranged Combat, Finesse Builds, and AC (not including evasion because its easy to get a good reflex save).

With ranged combat, its still better to only bring DEX to 16 and dump the rest in STR and CON, while putting all level ups in STR. You can get your DEX high enough with gear, tomes, and/or enhancements to make it not very meaningful to have to be an elf for a ranged combat character. If Half Orcs make the best barbarians, surely elves should make the best archers. This is currently not the case, humans and half elves can make better archers, with no penalty to CON.

Finesse builds are meaningless at end game. Not enough STR to put out dps will get you laughed out of any raid. The only good finesse builds are DEX based monks who still invest heavily in STR to not be useless.

This brings us to AC. Which is so broken we may as well not even talk about it.

So what does DEX bring to the table? Nothing.

Until you make DEX mean something: either making a feat like power attack or insightful damage to add DEX to damage, or making AC make sense, the Elf is gaining nothing from this attribute to set them apart from other races.

Issue #2 is a no-brainer, especially now that your e-peen is a direct reflection of how many HPs you have. CON, toughness, and toughness enhancements have become all people worry about in the current game. It's not hard to start with a 14 CON as an elf, but taking it to 16 gets expensive, even on a 34 or 36 point build, depending on what your goals are. But the real kicker is the limited amount of enhancements you have access to after taking toughness.

People say elves are supposed to make the best Wizards? Where are the bonuses to INT? I don't care how much spell pen you get or how many spell points, if you can't bring the DC's stay home. Anyone can get spell pen with 3 wiz past lives, and spell points really aren't an issue for anyone investing a little gear.

Besides, none of that is going to matter if you can't even take 1 delayed blast fireball to the face. So again, elves aren't bringing anything to table in the caster department either.

And for those people bringing up Elven Arcane Fluidity as something meaningful, stop making me laugh. When was the last time you saw an elven caster in mithril twilight fullplate lol. Totally useless. As if you have some awesome AC for it to even matter.

[JasonJi72]

I always thought elves should make good melee arcanes. In DDO, that is not feasible, or you would be better off using warforged. I propose they be given a prestige class that allows for physical damage to be absorbed partially by spellpoints, and have some spell point regeneration. Drow should also be eligible, but not half elves.

This would go a long way in dealing with the squishiness and making them viable arcane casters on par with humans and warforged.

For a more melee / caster oriented:

Tier I: Dexterity is used for spell DC if it is higher than the main casting stat (Int / Cha). Tier II: Every other level of non-arcane increases spell penetration by one, and spells per day as one level higher.

Mage Shield and Arcane Regeneration:

Tier I: 10% physical damage is absorbed by your spellpoints. Spellpoint Regeneration 5sp/minute. This ability can be toggled on / off, and can be activated 3 times per day.

Tier II: 15% absorption; can be increased to 30% 3 times per day for 1 minute. Physical attacks provide Vampiric Regeneration with regard to spellpoints.

The Elf version would be a Wizard prestige, and the Drow version would be a Sorcerer prestige.

Yeah, I know. It will never happen.

[zex95966]

People say elves are supposed to make the best Wizards? Where are the bonuses to INT? I don't care how much spell pen you get or how many spell points, if you can't bring the DC's stay home. Anyone can get spell pen with 3 wiz past lives

I agree with everything you said except this part.
Anyone can get spell pen with 3 wiz past lives?
No... not everyone has that many freaking past lives, you say it like it's freaking easy.

I do agree with the basic statement that the major problem is everyone needs con but not everyone needs dex.

Their enhancements also suck since only wizards get any kind of benefit but warforged get self healing to make up for the lack of spell pen and to top it off they get Con bonuses instead of penalties + immunites... so yeah Warforged pretty much make the superior wizards. Pale master might make it worth it to roll an elf but your talking one freaking class... not even a class - one freaking prestige to be useful for someone who doesn't have 3 wizard past lives.

However I feel that if they buff the elf, they need to buff the drow as well, as Elves pretty much outshine drows unless you don't have access to 32 point builds.

If your gonna say oh but elves get AA - Half elves get it without the con penalty, so try again.

Perhaps another race restricted prestige for elves? (full elves not half) I dunno if there is one though.

[Chai]

People say elves are supposed to make the best Wizards? Where are the bonuses to INT? I don't care how much spell pen you get or how many spell points, if you can't bring the DC's stay home. Anyone can get spell pen with 3 wiz past lives, and spell points really aren't an issue for anyone investing a little gear.

.

Those DCs dont mean anything when the CC or insta kill spells just slide off mobs SR. Anyone can have DCs. Elves as a first life wizard can be 1 int off a 4th life human with the same spell pen. ~Same DC - 1 for an active past life feat since they arent a TR.

For CC, there are level one clickies that lower saves by 3.

Spell pen is by far the more important stat.

What I have been saying is elves SHOULD make the best wizards. People keep asking for racial melee buffs, but I think if they are going to buff this race, it makes more sense that they would be better casters than other races, rather than get special melee perks.

[Emili]

Elves get Elven Arcanum, which many people sell short. It gives you additional Sp *and* spell pen. using enhancements. Fully invested, it adds the same Spell Pen as 2 feats of spell pen -- which means that if you invest, you effectively can free up 2 feats -- which gives you one more than even the human bonus feat, and still have the same spell pen as anyone else who invested the 2 feats in spell pen. Or you can keep the feats and the enhancements and have more spell pen. That in addition to the extra SP (80 iirc). The downside being ~30 less potential HP than humans. This sounds pretty caster-ish to me all around.

The down side to this are of course the TR's past life are equivalent... it is not uncommon for a wizard to go elf - first life - then switch to human or WF for second.

Now before you go scoffin' about multi-tr'd classes might add that Wizard have the greatest incentive to do so more than any other class...

Elf then is often viewed as an interim option. Due, the nature of TR the arcane classes have the most to gain from such. Spell Pen numbers (outside some epic drow) seem easier to reach adequate numbers of SR than DC otherwise... I have an aul elf witch PM an' when I get around to tr'ing her will most likely be human next life. SR is a first line defense on some mob and many mob do not have any at all - so you're more specialized... DC on the other hand is the equivalent of a melee's "to-hit". Also by-passin' SR consildates little if the spell does not land. Results are what you're after ... noone cares if ya break SR they care that your spell is effective and lands.

Arcanum... the nicest part of it are the spell pen, but as stated are two defenses utilizing such ... spell pen and DC, At 43dc and max'd out spell pen I can breach the epic SR mob but matters not as chances are will not stick and shorin' up debuff for to make it stick via clickie an' all not just time consumming... which often you do not have in high paced groups but also limited in use. The SP gains of Arcanum are ok but SP is cheap at high levels - even low levels - replensihing sp easily done by items you'd normally persue anyway as a caster.

When they were adding the perk of SR to arcanum ... I asked them to mix that some with DC in there, be no a reason not to... this very community rebutted with - but that would make elf casters - particularly wizards - too good. I said what? You do not think an elf should have the same DC potential as a human or drow given that wizard is listed as elves favoured class? Elven casters should be a natural choice option for arcane classes - not just as a starter but throughout the bleedin game.

[Chai]

When they were adding the perk of SR to arcanum ... I asked them to mix that some with DC in there, be no a reason not to... this very community rebutted with - but that would make elf casters - particularly wizards - too good. I said what? You do not think an elf should have the same DC potential as a human or drow given that wizard is listed as elves favoured class? Elven casters should be a natural choice option for arcane classes - not just as a starter but throughout the bleedin game.

This is what Ive been saying about elves the entire time.

If elves got 2 DC from an AP line, Elves would then be 1 DC and a few SR above drow, but this would not be as game breaking as say hOrcs being as much better at melee as they are than any other race.

People would still have to choose. Do they want the WF for alot more HP and better self healing or do they want the elf with gimpy con and worse self healing, but better DC and spell pen.

Give drow a 15% damage boost AP line for sorcs. Now its a choice between having the best self healing or the best damage.

As it stands right now its not even a debate as to what the best caster race is.

[zex95966]

but it's not as if your losing any DC by going elf.

I'm not arguing warforged make better wizards but it's not because of DC, it's because of self healing, immunities, and con bonus... instead of a penalty.

Again I will say that if they buff elves, they are going to buff drow.
after all drow are a p2p race and about the cheapest you can get to getting 32 point builds without actually getting it.

so from turbines point of view, I think they are not going to buff the elf without buffing the drow too.

[kcru]

Elves already get this as an enhancement. It is called Elven Arcane Fluidity.

Edit: http://ddowiki.com/page/Elven_Arcane_Fluidity

Exactly. But they want it for free.



Bards get it already with a warchanter build.

[Chai]

but it's not as if your losing any DC by going elf.

I'm not arguing warforged make better wizards but it's not because of DC, it's because of self healing, immunities, and con bonus... instead of a penalty.

Again I will say that if they buff elves, they are going to buff drow.
after all drow are a p2p race and about the cheapest you can get to getting 32 point builds without actually getting it.

so from turbines point of view, I think they are not going to buff the elf without buffing the drow too.

Im all for buffing drow. Give drow sorcs 15% damage over other sorcs that they have to spend AP on. Now its an actual debate between self healing as a WF or best damage in the game but not nearly as good on the self healing. Drow suck so bad most players are willing to be WF and start with 16 cha before drow at 20.

[Shakanos]

Im all for buffing drow. Give drow sorcs 15% damage over other sorcs that they have to spend AP on. Now its an actual debate between self healing as a WF or best damage in the game but not nearly as good on the self healing. Drow suck so bad most players are willing to be WF and start with 16 cha before drow at 20.

Drow, in my opinion, just need to be able to choose Int or Cha for their enhancement line instead of Dex if they so choose. There are other dnd races with multiple stat bonuses. If one of those is added to ddo, are they just going to arbitrarily pick a stat? DnD typically doesn't like giving caster stat modifiers while showering melee. Giving how much you can stack Str these days (seen the thread that breaks 100 str comfortably, whereas many casters would struggle to break 50 in their casting stat), another two points for casters of one race isn't going to break things that hard.

A Sorc specific Drow buff, while making Elf Wizard better and giving you an Elven race for either arcane, doesn't help other Drow. Such as Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul, Paladin, and even Artificer now (where Dex vs Int is actually a mildly interesting choice, at least for lower levels).

With the lower build points, Drow should be a great race for builds that can make use of the multiple stat bonuses while still limited (due to less build points) for those that only really make use of one of them.


I do like the flavor of Elven Arcanum's spell pen addition, though it only helps Wizards. On the martial side, the melee line basically lets rapier/scimitar mostly catch up to the Khopesh that a Human would take with their extra feat (and Humans then get a bunch of other bonuses... jerks). Falchions are decent 2h weapons... but it still feels very underwhelming compared to many of the other races enhancement. Elven enchantment resistance line is trash next to the Dwarf's saving throw boost against all spells.


Sadly, I think it comes back to Elf's having a Fighter/Wizard multiclass (or dual class, if we wanna go old school) stereotype and many of their bonuses based around that (looking at you, Arcane Fluidity). May've been decent in earlier editions, but for a min max approach Fighter/Wizard is generally a pretty horrid combination within 3.5 rules.


There's two things I can think of to base an additional boost around. One would be to implement something related to Elves meditating, instead of sleeping, and for half the time of normal races. Unfortunately it'd probably just be a lame buff to using rest shrines that nobody cares about or something like the Monk's meditate. Hmm, a mini rest away from shrines could actually be pretty sweet if it gave partial spell points back - health only would only help noobs that have no pots. SP would be hard to balance though (either it's amazing, or so little it doesn't matter), and still doesn't help all classes. Maybe recharging your item charges/action boosts/class abilites in some way? That's broad enough to be useful to most people in some way. Bit of a stretch, but could work.

The other could be related to their longer lifespans that most mortal races, and less hurried attitude as a result of that, but I currently have no idea how to translate that into DDO.

[Varashad]

Am I the only one who thinks elves could benefit from two weapon fighting racial enhancements? Their signature fighting styles are ranged and two weapon fighting, so maybe give them like a +5% attack speed enhancement while two weapon fighting, and can increase to up to 8% for 10 AP total?

[Entelech]

... Elven and Half-elven wizard and sorcerers should be able to wear light armor without any penalty to spell casting.

It's called Elf Arcane Fluidity. Welcome to several years ago.

[Noctus]

Am I the only one who thinks elves could benefit from two weapon fighting racial enhancements? Their signature fighting styles are ranged and two weapon fighting, so maybe give them like a +5% attack speed enhancement while two weapon fighting, and can increase to up to 8% for 10 AP total?

This train of though sounds like a good thing.

Gives the elves a buff which stays with their "theme" and fits into the world (fluff).

[Vanquishedfo]

In the 2nd ed elven handbook was a kit for fighter/mages known as the blade song, it also included the first multi profinciency costing fighting style sense the OH at least as far as my collection went. It tended to make the typical elven fighter mage so formiddable that I heard many a cry to ban mine over the years as the very goal of the blade song was to turn you into a one elf army to champion the cause of all elfdom against any foe and any odds and actually expect to walk away victorious.

And the funny thing was it wasnt really OP in what it did, it just was one of the few things actually put together with a strong concept at its basis. It made you the best sword fighter but you could only use a single one handed sword, no shield or any thing in the off hand, light armor only of elven make and an absolute always help elves and make war on any who threaten them with no mercy.

3E evolved this with new concepts in spell casting like the still spell feat effectively making the reasons bladesingers had to only use one sword or light armor rather obsolete but not completely useless. The fact now even pure elven wizards could wield weapons like rapiers further made the need to rethink the bladesong and how to apply the concept into the rules.

The bladesong must have been a popular facet of 2nd ed as Ive seen several 3E and 3.5 splat books have variations on it but most actually gear it towards the bard class as if the writers never did more then hear the name and go oh that sounds cool for bards not having any idea what it was about.

Im not going to sit here and spout ideas for charts and bonuses but I feel the DDO dev team after thier well done job on the artee has shown me they can take beloved PnP concepts and find ways to bring them here in fun to play ways.

So Devs listen up go find some old 2e elf books and read up on the blade song, then go play an all elf pnp campaign where you fight dwarves and orcs, then come back to your comps and we may finally see the elves DDO deserves.

[Valakai]

Hmm...never seen the -2 CON as the HUGE ISSUE people are claiming it to be. Its -20 HP at level 20. Usually if you are melee you are sitting comfy at 550-600 region so 20 hp do not make or break your character at that point. They have the nice scimitar damage and to hit line but it is overshadowed by the fact that Khopesh without any bonuses is better then scimi with +2/+2 enhancements. So yea. I concur that there is very little incentive to play one other then flavor reasons.

Elf wizard is good - like it is supposed to be. In other classes you can usually easily find other race to do the job better. Sad but true.

Run speed buff that lasts 20s and refreshes in 60s sounds nice. So would attack speed boosts or boosts to TWF.

[JasonJi72]

I don't think elves are that bad personally. Most of my characters are elves.

Here is a simple change that addresses most of what has been suggested.

Knowledge of the Ancients ~ As a race, the elves have literally forgotten more than the other races have learned. However, their stories and songs have retained some of this lost wisdom, and they are at times able to apply this knowledge to certain situations.

Tier I ~ +1 to combat tactical skills; +1 to spell dc's; +2 stackable bonus to skills. 2 uses per day. 10 second duration. 20 second cooldown. Cost 2 AP. Level 5 Elf.

Tier II ~ +2 to combat tactical skills; +2 to spell dc's; +3 stackable bonus to skills. 3 uses per day. 10 second duration. 20 second cooldown. Cost 4 AP. Level 10 Elf.

Tier III ~ +3 to combat tactical skills; +3 to spell dc's; +4 stackable bonus to skills. 4 uses per day. 10 second duration. 20 second cooldown. Cost 6 AP. Level 15 Elf.

Drow would of course also receive this ability.