Embracing the Ranger: Pure 20 Tempest

[Zachski]

So... it's really hopeless to make a pure Tempest then?

[Captain_Wizbang]

Human
Extra feat, bastard swords!
I start my dex at 17 on a 32 pt build
I max out my strength at beginning & with every lvl.
With str maxed, any ranged attack you have will kick some arse! (you get bow strength feat)
Start your wisdom at 10 & put whats left into con.

And watch what Gordon posts, he's still a noob! (but a smart noob)

[Zachski]

Human
Extra feat, bastard swords!

Huh-wha?

And watch what Gordon posts, he's still a noob! (but a smart noob)

...Not cool, man. not cool.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Huh-wha?



...Not cool, man. not cool.

It's ok, he knows how to take a poke, and yes he knows rangers very well to translate that for you.
follow up post for build suggestions in a bit

[Zachski]

It's ok, he knows how to take a poke, and yes he knows rangers very well to translate that for you.
follow up post for build suggestions in a bit

>_>

Maybe you could save the pokes for PMs then? No offense, but... quite frankly, it looked like you were flat-out insulting him.

[Captain_Wizbang]

it looked like you were flat-out insulting him.

OK, (going by your start date) it looks like you started playing right when Gordon999 & a small band of people were doing test shroud runs (on Lama, "monitored by Turbine"), when the big TWF nerf came in.
We (Gordon & I) had several lengthy talks about rangers.
His strengths were in "Ranged" builds, while mine are "Melee". The continuing main topic for us & others, is how to fix "ranged" path builds, & doing some serious fine tuning of the class from start to finish! (Ranger fans).
There is no need for you to defend his position, as he will throw barbs with the best of them, when needed.
Okies?
(As for the main topic here, Ill post a simple screen shot character sheet soon)


**Laggin bows to the fine sir. And apologizes for any misgivings his comments might unfortunately have made for such a fine gentleman** ** "Accept my apologies, oh thin skinned one. A few hundred back lashings from the trolls around here will fix you right up sir!" **

[Zachski]

My point is that insults tend to make you seem less reliable, but friendly ribbing is fine. It's just that to someone who doesn't know the dynamic you two have, it tends to be a bit hard to tell.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Average Tempest strength based stats, before in-quest buffs, also, any exceptional stat buff.




5 toons on 2 accounts spec'ed out almost the same, have been a blast to play & compete vs. mobs & allies alike, and hold their own.
(screen shot is not indicative of average stats achieved, buffs & penalties may apply)

Point is, Pick it apart, hate it, tell me I'm wrong, whatever, Im an noob gamer compared to the average DDO player, but I know for a fact, my build works in this game.


all epic melee weapons not equipped

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I say give up the Khopesh.

And use Min II weps, or craft Keen weps.

Toughness
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
OSTWF
Point Blank Shot
Power Attack

Min II Scimitars seems pretty good to me.

[red_cardinal]

In addition i feel that in the future (maybe U12 or U13) they might upgrade the Ranger...maybe he will even get pets similar to artificer...in this case going pure ranger would be even better.

I hope that rangers get upgraded soon, they are a nice class and it's a pity they are left behind in ranged combat.
As for their pets - I think they don't need them. The only thing they do need in that area is boosting CR to their summons. Right now you can summon a level 1 wolf which dies instantly. CR of that wolf should progress with ranger level and be capped at level, say... 8. Also, wolf AI isn't anything special - not aggressive enough.
Young razor cat should at least be CR 16 with appropriate health and str. At least, they should make ranger summons useful as summons of the Create Undead spell. Those summons ARE useful, but you don't need a control bar for them.
BTW. this ain't WoW.

Other ranger spells could use some changes too:
Level 1:
Camouflage - this spell is pretty useless only because Deepwood sniper PrE isn't implemented till end. If it would be, maybe rangers would cast if more often.
Wild insticts - same goes for this as for Camouflage.

[unbongwah]

So... it's really hopeless to make a pure Tempest then?

No, you can do it: you need the 4 Tempest pre-req feats, Toughness*, Imp Crit**, and PA; so any non-human race would stick with martial weapons (naturally dwarves, elves, and drow should use their racial weapons). A pure human ranger gets one more feat which could be spent on khopesh, Imp Crit Ranged, or whatever.

*Well, OK, technically you don't need Toughness, but I never leave home without it!
**Unless you stick to keen/Min2 weapons, in which case you can take something else.

[Zachski]

BTW. this ain't WoW.

Rangers in D&D 3.5 have animal companions >_> WoW took the idea from D&D.

[bandyman1]

Indeed, rangers in 3.5 get animal companions.


But, rangers in 3.5 also have to choose a combat style ( ranged or TWFing ), and do not get bonus feats for both.

We got caster level equal to character level and both combat styles to make up for not having animal companions.

Would anyone really like to see Turbine take those bonus feats away for a stupid dog???

[Aashrym]

Indeed, rangers in 3.5 get animal companions.


But, rangers in 3.5 also have to choose a combat style ( ranged or TWFing ), and do not get bonus feats for both.

We got caster level equal to character level and both combat styles to make up for not having animal companions.

Would anyone really like to see Turbine take those bonus feats away for a stupid dog???

I am not convinced we would need to take those benefits. The spells even at full caster level do not do much and the bonus feats cannot be used for simultaneous effect so will never be over powered just by having two combat styles.

I just cannot see the need to remove those benefits just for the equivalent of the artie pet.

[Zachski]

Why would they take those benefits away?

A lot of people assume that they would, but...

Look at Monk. Straight buffed from the original class, nothing taken away. Better than the PnP equivalent in every way.

Why wouldn't Ranger get to keep simultaneous TWF and Ranged, as well as at-level spells (which isn't as beneficial as you'd think) in addition to the pet?

[ddoplayer064]

One of my rangers got LR'd into an AA this week and I have to day the new Point Blank Shot is FRIGGIN AMAZING. Manyshot into a crowd puts out insane burst damage, especially with the "right" bows. PBS is by far the best damage increasing feat but you CANNOT fit it on a tempest without deep-splashing. My AA right now in Ranger 15, Rogue 3, Monk 2 which lets me fit in a bunch of stuff I could never do pure.

I've been thinking of TR'ing my Ranger/Fighter into an AA. Can you give a general breakdown on this build? More like what classes you'd take at what levels, and feat choices.

[Kannos1600]

1. Which is better, Human or Half Elf, and why? I plan to take advantage of Damage Boost, this is why it's limited to these two.

Both bring to the table a nice bonus. Human with a bit more skill points and an extra feat. I prefer Half-Elf though myself since they get the Half-Elf Doopadoo bonus which is essentially a baby cross class without actually cross classing. Plus a few bonuses to our class skills from the get go.

2. What's the minimum starting dex I can get away with and still maintain an acceptable to-hit for bows in epic content with gear considered?

./shrug I think my main used to have 32 dex till I changed him and now has 28 and I dont miss much since I use Weapon Finesse when fighting enemies. Then again I dual weild Rapiers for that.

3. Is Monk Dilly worth it if I go Half Elf?

If you plan to not wear Armor of any kind then yes. The bes Outfits though will come from your Dragontouched Robes/Outfits naturally but you may be tempted later on to wear actual Armor. If you have good armor you want later I would probably go with another Doopadoo instead of Monk. I went with Monk myself though.

4. Outside of going pure Ranger, are there any other feats I should take in place of another feat to boost the power of my ranged attacks without sacrificing too much with my dual weapons?

Improved Crit Ranged, Weapon Focus Ranged and pretty much anything else to focus on it if you really want to. Arcane Archer is pretty neat to just to let yah know but if your going the road I did then I wouldnt focus my feats at all on Ranged Attacks.

Hell I just did Shroud the other night with my Bow of Sinew on and just plicked him away and called it a night.

[bandyman1]

I am not convinced we would need to take those benefits.

And you don't have to be. It would only require that the Devs are .

The spells even at full caster level do not do much and the bonus feats cannot be used for simultaneous effect so will never be over powered just by having two combat styles.

What? Having the best melee buffs in the game, and having them scale as if a full caster isn't " not doing much ".

And, it's three bonus feats ( which happen to be the best available for both ranged and TWFing ) either way you slice it. That's not a small thing on a non-fighter class.

Why would they take those benefits away?

A lot of people assume that they would, but...

Look at Monk. Straight buffed from the original class, nothing taken away. Better than the PnP equivalent in every way.

Why wouldn't Ranger get to keep simultaneous TWF and Ranged, as well as at-level spells (which isn't as beneficial as you'd think) in addition to the pet?

I'm not saying that they should. I'm not saying that they would.

I'm responding to the constant clamor for pets on these boards because " they get them in 3.5 DnD!!! ".

Yes, rangers do indeed get them in 3.5 DnD. But rangers here from day one have also gotten many benefits that their 3.5 counterpasrts do not, in order to make up for the lack.

It's not as if compensation wasn't given .

[Aashrym]

And you don't have to be. It would only require that the Devs are .



What? Having the best melee buffs in the game, and having them scale as if a full caster isn't " not doing much ".

And, it's three bonus feats ( which happen to be the best available for both ranged and TWFing ) either way you slice it. That's not a small thing on a non-fighter class.

I do not think the devs would disagree on not needing to take away the bonuses to rangers with feats and caster level, but you have a valid point.

What I meant by cannot use simultaneously is the ranger is either using ranged weapons or melee. He can swap between either for whichever if a better choice at the time but having that options does not give the ranger any massive boost. Making a choice of one or the other would not really change the damage output of the ranger and all we might see is a circumstantial change in effectiveness based on when range is or is not useful. That is why I think removing one style would be pointless at this point.

Rangers spells are pretty limited with or without the full caster level. They have some useful buffs, to be sure, but not what I would consider the best melee buffs in the game. The offensive spells and summons are pointless and the actual spells that are useful are jump, resist, barkskin, FoM, ram's might, and maybe longstrider. These are not what I would consider the best melee buffs in the game.

I might be missing something in there so I am open to feed back on what I am missing but at this point I do not see a need to remove anything from a ranger if a pet were to be added.

[bandyman1]

Rangers spells are pretty limited with or without the full caster level. They have some useful buffs, to be sure, but not what I would consider the best melee buffs in the game. The offensive spells and summons are pointless and the actual spells that are useful are jump, resist, barkskin, FoM, ram's might, and maybe longstrider. These are not what I would consider the best melee buffs in the game.

Then what would you consider the best melee buffs in the game ( as far as spells )?

30 pt. resists
Heals ( and a ranger with the right gear/enhancements can do fine self-healing )
FoM
Barkskin
Jump
Ram's Might


What else is needed that isn't readily available???