DoS vs KotC

[MrLarone]

with the update to DoS which is better?

to put things in context i personally run a multiclass with 15 lvls of paladin. so as such i can only access the first 2 tiers of the pres.

my squishy phoenix

as a phoenix build she's been playing as HotD, but with the update i decided to try DoS last night.

i like =)

i lost:
21% HA (i had 400% so no biggie)
ghost touch (got the spectral gloves)
neg lvl immunity (ok, this may be missed)

and gained:
+4 str
~150 total HP from the con and % boost
and a nice boost to ac (thouhgh i'm not really geared for ac atm)

seems like a fair trade to me, especially as the str boost stacks.

now what i'm left questioning in KotC. i was under the impression this was the best pre for an end game pally but i'm not really seeing it (at tier II anyway).

at tier II i'd get:
+2 against EO (equivilant to +4 str against everything)
2d6 dmg against EO (avg 7, getting +2 against everything from DoS)
+3 to saves against EO (DoS boosts all my aura's saves, unknown amount)
a stun against CEO (i'll set this against the extra lay on hands, mass shiled of faith and magic circle of protection)

so after that KotC is only really up 5dmg (and that's only against EO) vs ~150hp from DoS...

i'm i really misundertanding something or is KotC only recommended if you go to tier III... or is it actually not so clear cut given the update to DoS.

thougts?

[Xenostrata]

KotC is ridiculously underpowered at the moment. Don't forget to include in your calculations the fact that KotC bonus damage can't crit but the DoS bonus can.

[MrLarone]

ah, spent most of my time leveling reading i'd need to switch to KotC at end game...

i'm guessing it's the update that's changed the which is the best pre, or has it always been the case you need tier III to justify KotC at all?

also for a class with smites and divine sacrifice it seems odd to have a damage type that 's not multipled on crit.

[Moltier]

As far as i know, the stance removes rages. So -2STR -2CON from rage spell.
Madstone could be another loss, but not really good on a pally coz spells.

[MrLarone]

As far as i know, the stance removes rages. So -2STR -2CON from rage spell.
Madstone could be another loss, but not really good on a pally coz spells.

actually this was one of the first things i noticed and discussed here (specifically to do with madstone)

in brief: no rage whilst in stance (rage actually dispelled by entering stance i.e. you won't have it if you exit stance, even if done so within the rage's timer), madstone won't proc whilst in stance though does stack if you proc THEN enter stance.

you're points still valid though i tend not to calculate for buffs i can't cast myself (pots not included). that said even with a theoretical -2 str (-1 tohit and dmg) at full buff potential i think it still comparable as that applies to everything not just evil outsiders. that and it still pales in comparrison to ~+150 hp

***edit***

regarding pally spells, the stance thing actually works in our favour, with extend most buffs are 3mins ish and madstone procing for 90 secs or so (iirc) i've been in the habit of watching timers and switchign out the boots so that i come out of rage just as i need to rebuff. now i buff, madstone enter stance and as i can hotbar the stance toggle it's only one hotkey to control when i rage. though it's a bit of a nut kicker that you only get to activate teh stance 5 times, still good enough for the big fights and once i figure out how to spread the AP i'm sure i can get enough for most quests so i can be madstoned most of the time.

that level of mirco may not be to everyone's tastes but i'm playing a monkadin for a reason

[CanuckWisdom]

IM sure you know, but just for the record, third tier KotC is an additional 2d6 damage, and then I think another 2d6 if you have the ToD set, for a 4d6 jump, which is dramatic.

That said, KotC and HotD both really need some more functionality imo, perhaps combine them together and create a new third PrE.

[Tirisha]

if you don't want aggro going DOS is simply unacceptable, 75% threat is not something a DPS toon needs or should ever consider having. If you plan on tanking DOS is a great choice.

[rest]

I'm currently on my paladin life for my fighter. 14pally/6fighter (kensai). I spec'd into KotC simply because previously the DoS was pretty lack luster and I was anticipating good damage in raids with devils and demons. However I found myself spending a lot more time in the new house C stuff and not in amrath.

With the changes to, I do not regret switching over to DoS AT ALL. It's simply an awesome PrE, even just having tier 2. Bumps my hp up over 700 which is quite nice, and the increased str is great too.

[rest]

if you don't want aggro going DOS is simply unacceptable, 75% threat is not something a DPS toon needs or should ever consider having. If you plan on tanking DOS is a great choice.

That +75% threat is a bit problematic, but throw on some tinker's goggles and it's completely negated. Or run with people who have all sorts of awesome hate gen. I've yet to see a problem with it personally.

[Enoach]

Rage and Madstone Rage (MR) vs Tier II DoS
==========================

• Both are +4 STR
• R+MR is +2 more CON - Negated by the +20% MAX HP if you have more then 100HP

Rage and Double Madstone Rage (DMR) vs Tier II DoS

• R+DMR is +2 more STR
• R+DMR is +6 more CON - Negated by the +20% MAX HP if you have more then 300HP

What is actually the BIG difference is

• Stance allows Spells and Clickie
• Madstone grants +10% Attack Speed
• Stance costs 10% movement speed
• Rage+Madstone has a limited time - Spell Rage being dispellable.

For me the biggest Drawback pre U11 for DoS was the movement speed but even that did not prevent me from enjoying my DoS.

Also keep in mind the +75% To All Hate generated is only if you are holding a Shield, the other hate Percentages can be scaled down by using the lower stance or not being in stance at all - which means you can now enjoy Rage+MR.

[rest]

Rage and Madstone Rage (MR) vs Tier II DoS
==========================

• Both are +4 STR
• R+MR is +2 more CON - Negated by the +20% MAX HP if you have more then 100HP

Rage and Double Madstone Rage (DMR) vs Tier II DoS

• R+DMR is +2 more STR
• R+DMR is +6 more CON - Negated by the +20% MAX HP if you have more then 300HP

What is actually the BIG difference is

• Stance allows Spells and Clickie
• Madstone grants +10% Attack Speed
• Stance costs 10% movement speed
• Rage+Madstone has a limited time - Spell Rage being dispellable.

For me the biggest Drawback pre U11 for DoS was the movement speed but even that did not prevent me from enjoying my DoS.

Also keep in mind the +75% To All Hate generated is only if you are holding a Shield, the other hate Percentages can be scaled down by using the lower stance or not being in stance at all - which means you can now enjoy Rage+MR.

They nerfed the extra attack speed for madstone a LONG time ago.

[Tirisha]

That +75% threat is a bit problematic, but throw on some tinker's goggles and it's completely negated.

not sure off the top of my head but how much threat degen does the goggles give?

Or run with people who have all sorts of awesome hate gen. I've yet to see a problem with it personally.

you don't pug much do you

heck I'd not run that much threat even when people I know are tanking simply because good tanks aren't going to typically produce competitive DPS so they need their threat advantage to maintain aggro.