introduce sacred items in opposition to evil items

[IanYang]

So far there are some items/effects in the game which provide useful effects but unfortunately have evil or negative traits. EX: Litany of the Dead, Vile Blaspheme, Twisted Talisman, Xachosian Eardweller, Greater False Life, etc.

Although useful, such items' traits may not correspond to some people's moral principle. Personally, I don't like to use evil items or disgusting parasite/symbiont. Also, it makes no sense that we can only use evil or negative items if we want to make ourselves stronger.

Therefore the suggestion here is introducing sacred/positive items for people who don't want to use evil/negative items. If you think too many of these items will make people become too powerful, it's okay to make sacred items don't stack with evil items.

Several examples are:

• Litany of the God: Grants you +1 sacred bonus to all states. Sacred bonus don't stack with profane bonus.
• Holy Talisman: Restores your sp but won't sacrifice your hp. Holy Talisman radiates powerful positive energy, so it will make Twisted Talisman inactive if you carry both of them in your inventory.
• Miraculous Mini Fairy: Summon a miraculous mini fairy (similar to those you see in Partycrashers) from her wonderland. While mini fairy flying around you, she will grants you a 100% miraculous bonus to spell damage. Miraculous Mini Fairy radiates powerful positive energy, so she will remove unhealthy things such as parasite/symbiont from you if you have any in your inventory.
• Greater Holy Life: +30 to your maximum hp. Holy Life doesn't stack with False Life.

[Yvonnel-1]

one of the things with evil items is, that good players (alli not skills^^) get a malus

since we dont have evil aligs in DDO what and how u suppose to punish them for?

would rather think about such "sacred" or "good" stuff if we also had the full plate of alignments, as it is now i think its just not needed sorry

[licho]

Hmm i see the point in some kind of exalted items with the folowing rules:
- Cant stack with some profane, or taint of evil one.
- Demands Good alligment, neutral or evul suffers negative levels, yup you need to be decided to be good.

The reason is that so far being neutral is clearly supperior option. If you can get umd high you dont even loose much.
It will be much interesting if being either good or neutral will grant own set of items.

[Calebro]

So far there are some items/effects in the game which provide useful effects but unfortunately have evil or negative traits. EX: Litany of the Dead, Vile Blaspheme, Twisted Talisman, Xachosian Eardweller, Greater False Life, etc.

[IanYang]

So far there are some items/effects in the game which provide useful effects but unfortunately have evil or negative traits. EX: Litany of the Dead, Vile Blaspheme, Twisted Talisman, Xachosian Eardweller, Greater False Life, etc.

False Life has something to do with dark energy iirc.

[BruceTheHoon]

Miraculous Mini Fairy

That's a stupid superhero name.


I see your point and my paladin agrees, although just making counterparts for the existing items feels redundant. I'd also rather have such items tied to the new storylines than forcefully expanding the existant loot tables.

[Talias006]

So far there are some items/effects in the game which provide useful effects but unfortunately have evil or negative traits. EX: Litany of the Dead, Vile Blaspheme, Twisted Talisman, Xachosian Eardweller, Greater False Life, etc.

Although useful, such items' traits may not correspond to some people's moral principle. Personally, I don't like to use evil items or disgusting parasite/symbiont. Also, it makes no sense that we can only use evil or negative items if we want to make ourselves stronger.

Therefore the suggestion here is introducing sacred/positive items for people who don't want to use evil/negative items. If you think too many of these items will make people become too powerful, it's okay to make sacred items don't stack with evil items.

Several examples are:

• Litany of the God: Grants you +1 sacred bonus to all states. Sacred bonus don't stack with profane bonus.
• Holy Talisman: Restores your sp but won't sacrifice your hp. Holy Talisman radiates powerful positive energy, so it will make Twisted Talisman inactive if you carry both of them in your inventory.
• Miraculous Mini Fairy: Summon a miraculous mini fairy (similar to those you see in Partycrashers) from her wonderland. While mini fairy flying around you, she will grants you a 100% miraculous bonus to spell damage. Miraculous Mini Fairy radiates powerful positive energy, so she will remove unhealthy things such as parasite/symbiont from you if you have any in your inventory.
• Greater Holy Life: +30 to your maximum hp. Holy Life doesn't stack with False Life.

Perhaps instead of a mini fairy (which imho sounds insipid beyond belief) change it into an Archon of some sort.
It might not need to have an associated graphic like the Favored Soul's Lantern Archon, but if the spark of divinity is small enough it might not really need one.
And if I'm not mistaken, which sometimes I am, then a graphic isn't the necessary part of the equation.
I do like the ideas, even though I'm not sure if they're all needed or warranted.

False Life has something to do with dark energy iirc.

Truth to this, I looked it up via the Compendium.
The False Life spells harness the power of unlife.
They're Necromancy spells, after all is said and done.

[Jaid314]

The False Life spells harness the power of unlife.
They're Necromancy spells, after all is said and done.

- death pact is necromancy
- disrupt undead is necromancy
- halt undead is necromancy
- spawn screen is necromancy
- undeath to death is necromancy

necromancy includes spells that create and control undead. it also includes spells that destroy the undead, and deal with life and death in general. in fact, not so long ago (iirc in 3.0 D&D, though not 3.5 - definitely in 2nd edition), necromancy included all spells dealing with life and death in general, and included all the spells for raising the dead, and healing. the fact that they were changed is somewhat nonsensical and silly, given that they did not change the reversed spells (which are still necromancy)... but if you think that necromancy automatically means evil, then you are simply flat-out wrong. necromancy is not evil. it manipulates life energy. that can be used for evil purposes, like binding the soul of some poor unfortunate to their corpse and sending them out to kill people, but it can also be used for good purposes, like destroying undead enemies or preventing them from harming others. i can use evocation magic for evil too, should i demand that all evocation-based items be changed? how about enchantment? i can literally turn someone against their close friends, and make them commit murder on my behalf. i can paralyse my enemies and then slaughter them without remorse, or make them dance helplessly while i burn them and all their friends around them.

and in any event, someone who probably allies with the yugoloth isn't exactly in a position to take the moral high ground, nor is the person who, say, invades the homes of other races (of people who were often minding their own business, no less), slaughtering them all, and taking their possessions. sure, you can argue that they attacked you, but guess what: if someone invaded your home, you have a right to defend yourself, your family, and your properties. you make a living out of breaking into other people's homes, killing them, and stealing their property.

the problem here is not that the items need an adjustment. the problem is that your perspective needs adjustment.

[Cyr]

It is indeed a useful idea to have more items that rely upon good alignment as we have had a recent trend which pushed nuetral alignments recently. This has nothing to do with roleplaying reasons (from my perspective) and everything to do with competitve balance between alignments.

I suggest a new item power...

Supreme Rightousness: This item grants you one negative level while it is equipped if you are not of a good alignment.

Items that are similarly powered to taint of evil items can be developed although clones of items is the wrong way to go about it. Unique new items would provide more of a cost/benefit to players. Either way it should not be overdone as too many items having these types of requirements is not desirable either as it makes lots of loot unusuable to the player who pulls it.

[geoffhanna]

There was a time when all of the best items were either made out of bones and skulls (Orchard) or tainted with evil (Vale).

The later expansions have gotten away from that somewhat. And ... yay!

I don't agree with the specific examples provided by the OP but I think RP'ers and even casual good guys like myself would like more heroic weapons.

[IanYang]

@Jaid314,

To me, I don't like to use false life items not because they are related to necromancy, but because they harness undead energy to boost up wearers.

[noinfo]

one of the things with evil items is, that good players (alli not skills^^) get a malus

since we dont have evil aligs in DDO what and how u suppose to punish them for?

would rather think about such "sacred" or "good" stuff if we also had the full plate of alignments, as it is now i think its just not needed sorry

Easy have it state it is unusable by evil and neutral get the penalty. Really a neutral aligned character gets no penalty in this game at all as it can use pretty much all items, takes reduced alignment damage and can umd items that are good aligned only.

This would give a reason to play good alignments again. But some of those names the OP gave need ALOT of work.

[Talias006]

- death pact is necromancy
- disrupt undead is necromancy
- halt undead is necromancy
- spawn screen is necromancy
- undeath to death is necromancy

necromancy includes spells that create and control undead. it also includes spells that destroy the undead, and deal with life and death in general. in fact, not so long ago (iirc in 3.0 D&D, though not 3.5 - definitely in 2nd edition), necromancy included all spells dealing with life and death in general, and included all the spells for raising the dead, and healing. the fact that they were changed is somewhat nonsensical and silly, given that they did not change the reversed spells (which are still necromancy)...

Thank you, that part was actually informative, inasmuch that I wasn't aware of the many life energy invective spells that are in the Necromancy type of magic.

but if you think that necromancy automatically means evil, then you are simply flat-out wrong. necromancy is not evil. it manipulates life energy. that can be used for evil purposes, like binding the soul of some poor unfortunate to their corpse and sending them out to kill people, but it can also be used for good purposes, like destroying undead enemies or preventing them from harming others.

Here is where I think you misinterpreted my statement.
I merely pointed out that there was some truth to the statement that unlife was involved in the False Life spells.

I never inferred that all necromancy was evil.
Magic in and of itself is neutral.


It is in the will or ability of the magic user to determine if the effect was for good or ill.
Of all your examples, the only one that I find most intriguing is Death Pact.

I understand why it's a Necromancy spell.
When you die, you can't really conjure up your own body now, can you?


That all the other raise spells are conjuration makes sense from a certain point of view.
They conjure up the body for the soul of the person to re-inhabit after the souls' short hiatus.

i can use evocation magic for evil too, should i demand that all evocation-based items be changed? how about enchantment? i can literally turn someone against their close friends, and make them commit murder on my behalf. i can paralyse my enemies and then slaughter them without remorse, or make them dance helplessly while i burn them and all their friends around them.

and in any event, someone who probably allies with the yugoloth isn't exactly in a position to take the moral high ground, nor is the person who, say, invades the homes of other races (of people who were often minding their own business, no less), slaughtering them all, and taking their possessions. sure, you can argue that they attacked you, but guess what: if someone invaded your home, you have a right to defend yourself, your family, and your properties. you make a living out of breaking into other people's homes, killing them, and stealing their property.

the problem here is not that the items need an adjustment. the problem is that your perspective needs adjustment.

I don't get what purpose your animosity towards myself or others serves.
You can't really say that you have a higher moral principle than anyone else.

We're all guilty of these things, unless you not only play a Paladin, but RP him/her to the point where you can't go on quests where your moral high ground might get called into question.
Please, spare the semantics and morality issues for real life.


This is a game set in a fantasy world of relative moral ambiguity.

[Jaid314]

i'm simply pointing out the absurdity of saying "oh, i don't want my character to use X, Y, and Z, because they're linked to necromancy and that's bad" when you're making alliances with demons, and make a living out of breaking into the homes of various creatures, killing them, and taking their stuff.

i never claimed any moral high ground. i simply pointed out that it's silly to try to claim one in DDO. for example, by stating that you don't want to use items that "harness the powers of unlife" (while at the same time most likely having ran multiple quests alongside pale masters, and grouping with people who snuff out the soul of their targets using various death spells)

and no, false life does not harness negative energy, or the powers of unlife. it harnesses the powers of life, which is a major part of what necromancy used to govern before they arbitrarily changed it to conjuration (presumably on the basis that it's linked to the positive energy plane, which is imo a fairly poor argument compared to the school of magic that deals with the energies of life and death... particularly since healing magic doesn't animate magic objects like the positive energy plane does, and overhealing doesn't explode you like the positive energy plane does). it is no different than aid, in that respect.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...htm#necromancy "Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force."

edit: and no, raise dead makes little sense as a conjuration spell. you could conjure the person's soul, and maybe even a body (though that would raise the question of where exactly all those copies of your body are coming from), but tying them together again? that's pure necromancy, and that's the primary effect of the spells.

[IanYang]

i'm simply pointing out the absurdity of saying "oh, i don't want my character to use X, Y, and Z, because they're linked to necromancy and that's bad" when you're making alliances with demons, and make a living out of breaking into the homes of various creatures, killing them, and taking their stuff.

Thanks for your explanation. However, I didn't say necromancy is bad.

And making alliances with demon doesn't always mean doing something unethical, as long as your purpose is righteous. Although I don't completely know the detail of the story line of The Devils of Shavarath, I roughly know the goal is to protect people from devil invasion. That's not a bad thing.

Besides, I believe those mobs we killed in various quests are considered evil or harmful. If you don't kill them, they will endanger other creatures.

i never claimed any moral high ground. i simply pointed out that it's silly to try to claim one in DDO. for example, by stating that you don't want to use items that "harness the powers of unlife" (while at the same time most likely having ran multiple quests alongside pale masters, and grouping with people who snuff out the soul of their targets using various death spells)

I'm not very care about what path other players choose. That's their choices.

As stated above, I didn't say necromancy is bad.

and no, false life does not harness negative energy, or the powers of unlife.

The DDOwiki said false life harnesses the power of unlife.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...htm#necromancy "Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force."

I know some spells of necromancy school manipulate the power of unlife, such as Create Undead, which I never use.

[Jaid314]

And making alliances with demon doesn't mean doing something unethical, as long as your purpose is righteous. Although I don't completely know the detail of the story line of The Devils of Shavarath, I roughly know the goal is to protect people from devil invasion. That's not a bad thing.

Besides, I believe those mobs we killed in various quests are considered evil or harmful. If you don't kill them, they will endanger other creatures.

making a deal with the devil is pretty much a classic example of what you never ever ever ever do. also, it's pretty obvious if you look at all that the alliance is not needed; you get there via a non-devil planescaller, and it's humans that have gates which lets them transport stuff (such as warforged titans) to shavarath, not the devils.

and many of those mobs you kill were largely minding their own business. for example, waterworks. did it occur to you that your mission is basically to go in there, and rescue two people... who were themselves invading the kobolds home, killing the kobolds within, and stealing their stuff. are the kobolds particularly nice? no, not really. but ultimately, the act which you are invading their territory and killing them for is self-defense.

the butcher's path. "hey, why don't you go through here and kill lots of stuff, it's really hard". hey, nothing says moral high ground like killing stuff just because it's there and will put up a bit of a fight, right?

running with the devils: almost the entire quest consists of you killing eladrin, good-aligned outsiders, who are busy trying to stop you from freeing a tiefling who is working for aeritrikos. goodness, don't kill the stupid spiders, but hey, feel free to kill as many eladrin as you want!

vault of night, you're interfering with the work of the red dragon velah, who is trying to learn more about the stormreaver's return and the return of the quori, as i recall, and prevent it.

relic of a sovereign past: basic, old-fashioned kick-in-the-door, kill anything that moves, and steal their stuff. but hey, that one guy said it totally belonged to his church, hundreds of years ago.

VoN 3: help a vampire assassin defend herself from a being seeking to destroy her for being an undead abomination.

really, the list goes on. if you want to play a heroic, genuinely good person who can take the moral high ground, then DDO is probably not the game for you.

[Jaid314]

The DDOwiki said false life harnesses the power of unlife.

hmmm... odd. it does say that. but that makes absolutely no sense. probably written by someone (at WotC, because the d20 version also says that) who forgot that necromancy isn't automatically evil and doesn't deal only with undead, and that it also governs the forces of life, which makes much more sense as a mechanic.

why does it make more sense? well, as a general rule, when you take the power of unlife and apply it to living creatures, you don't get bonus hit points. in fact, as a general rule, you're much more likely to either lose hit points, or take some ability damage, or get some negative levels... none of which are particularly associated with gaining temporary hit points.

on the other hand, as a force of life thing, it makes pretty good sense: increase force of life, gain bonus hit points. guess we're stuck with that being the official description of what the spell does, though, nonsense or not (of course, i can always just ignore that fact).

[Fillivan]

Even better, how about we have to "cleanse" the taint from the evil items, thus making them sacred in order to use them.. BUT that will change some of their bonuses...

About the Necromancy.. it's the power over life and death... which sound more like power over light and darkness, which in a way makes it both good (when it gives life, guides the soul and etc.) and bad(when it takes away life, imprisons souls or mocks with the dead...)

[IanYang]

@Jaid314,

Okay, I am a Chinese and reading a lot of English is tiring to me. Therefore sometimes I didn't carefully read the entire instruction from NPCs who bestow quests. I will investigate the story arc of those quests you said and post the results at here.

[shores11]

So far there are some items/effects in the game which provide useful effects but unfortunately have evil or negative traits. EX: Litany of the Dead, Vile Blaspheme, Twisted Talisman, Xachosian Eardweller, Greater False Life, etc.

Although useful, such items' traits may not correspond to some people's moral principle. Personally, I don't like to use evil items or disgusting parasite/symbiont. Also, it makes no sense that we can only use evil or negative items if we want to make ourselves stronger.

Therefore the suggestion here is introducing sacred/positive items for people who don't want to use evil/negative items. If you think too many of these items will make people become too powerful, it's okay to make sacred items don't stack with evil items.

Several examples are:

• Litany of the God: Grants you +1 sacred bonus to all states. Sacred bonus don't stack with profane bonus.
• Holy Talisman: Restores your sp but won't sacrifice your hp. Holy Talisman radiates powerful positive energy, so it will make Twisted Talisman inactive if you carry both of them in your inventory.
• Miraculous Mini Fairy: Summon a miraculous mini fairy (similar to those you see in Partycrashers) from her wonderland. While mini fairy flying around you, she will grants you a 100% miraculous bonus to spell damage. Miraculous Mini Fairy radiates powerful positive energy, so she will remove unhealthy things such as parasite/symbiont from you if you have any in your inventory.
• Greater Holy Life: +30 to your maximum hp. Holy Life doesn't stack with False Life.

I like that creative suggestions are being made but these won't work as there is no evil alignments in DDO for players. IN addition on the greater holy life why make another false life item when on already exists that does not have a negative effect.

The miraculous fairy if that doesn't scream of over the top then I don;t know what does.

Sacred bonus is a divine bonus available to clerics and paladins as it should be.