NEW: DDOZonixx Live Streaming! (+ Some General Info)

[LolWutRoflstomped]

What he said. Also, I do believe that Zonixx was in the Eberron Chronicle a while back as a result of his Videos, streaming or pre-recorded I cannot remember. Edit : Found it.

What he does:
Hosts an LFM.
Streams it.
Leaves the LFM up while running the quest. Yes, it includes a URL.

I fail to see how this is harming anyone involved, or especially ban-worthy.

I've watched his streaming video before - there was nothing inappropriate about it, nor does he seem to profit from it AFAIK. It's just some guy playing DDO.

So it's a URL - I've got a URL to the forums in both McPhail's and Hobadash's Bios in game. Should I expect a vacation soon?

Agreed. I will be sending an email to Turbine and ask any and all people who appreciate and watch his streams to do the same. I know many people benefited from watching our LOB and MA streams.

[Calebro]

The Code of Conduct says, here, that:
8. You may not market, promote, advertise, or solicit within the Dungeons&Dragons Online game or Web.
-and-
20. You may not post Web links or URLs in the game that point to content deemed by Turbine to be inappropriate, including, without limitation, any Web links or URLs directed to other commercial products or services. <snip>

Placing the address in the LFM panel violates both of those rules. I don't care if they placed it into the spotlight for a chronicle or not, placing the addy in the LFM panel is a violation, and if he got reported for it....
Getting the spotlight for a day doesn't grant free reign to break the rules. If he got reported for it, then he get a ban. Dem's da rulez.

[TheDearLeader]

The Code of Conduct says, here, that:
8. You may not market, promote, advertise, or solicit within the Dungeons&Dragons Online game or Web.
-and-
20. You may not post Web links or URLs in the game that point to content deemed by Turbine to be inappropriate, including, without limitation, any Web links or URLs directed to other commercial products or services. <snip>

Placing the address in the LFM panel violates both of those rules. I don't care if they placed it into the spotlight for a chronicle or not, placing the addy in the LFM panel is a violation, and if he got reported for it....
Getting the spotlight for a day doesn't grant free reign to break the rules. If he got reported for it, then he get a ban. Dem's da rulez.

What is he marketing?
What is he promoting?
What is he advertising?
What is he soliciting?
What is inappropriate?
What goods is he trying to sell?
What services is he offering?

Seeing as I can't see a concrete answer to *any* of those, I also cannot see how he violated The Code of Conduct.

[Calebro]

The Code of Conduct says, here, that:
8. You may not market, promote, advertise, or solicit within the Dungeons&Dragons Online game or Web.
-and-
20. You may not post Web links or URLs in the game that point to content deemed by Turbine to be inappropriate, including, without limitation, any Web links or URLs directed to other commercial products or services. <snip>

Placing the address in the LFM panel violates both of those rules. I don't care if they placed it into the spotlight for a chronicle or not, placing the addy in the LFM panel is a violation, and if he got reported for it....
Getting the spotlight for a day doesn't grant free reign to break the rules. If he got reported for it, then he get a ban. Dem's da rulez.

What is he marketing?
What is he promoting?
What is he advertising?
What is he soliciting?
What is inappropriate?
What goods is he trying to sell?
What services is he offering?

Seeing as I can't see a concrete answer to *any* of those, I also cannot see how he violated The Code of Conduct.

These were all grouped up together. He doesn't need to violate all of them, only one. Placing a link to an outside site is called advertising.
ad·ver·tis·ing   [ad-ver-tahy-zing]
noun
1.
the act or practice of calling public attention to one's product, service, need, etc., especially by paid announcements in newspapers and magazines, over radio or television, on billboards, etc.: to get more customers by advertising.

These were also grouped together, and as such only need one of them to be a violation.
The site he linked to offers a service. And he considers his streaming there to be a service as well. So that could go either way depending on your point of view. Regardless, it violates both of those rules.

I'll tell you flat out that if I were looking for a group and I saw a link to http://www.livestream.com/ddozonixx advertised in the LFM panel, if I didn't already know what it was because of these threads I would assume it was spam, and I would report it.
Obviously someone else did not know what it was and had the same thought.
It was reviewed, and they found it to be in violation of two different rules of the CoC.
That's probably exactly what happened.

[Cyr]

Guys lets not kid ourselves here. The website that hosts the stream does make money off of people going to their site. There are advertisments on there. Although Zonnix probably makes zero on this it does not change the fact that it is another commerical property that it is pointing to.

[Calebro]

Guys lets not kid ourselves here. The website that hosts the stream does make money off of people going to their site. There are advertisments on there. Although Zonnix probably makes zero on this it does not change the fact that it is another commerical property that it is pointing to.

Exactly.
He can stream it all he wants. He can tell us all about it here.
As soon as he advertises it within game it's a violation of the CoC.
Period.

[TheDearLeader]

Guys lets not kid ourselves here. The website that hosts the stream does make money off of people going to their site. There are advertisments on there. Although Zonnix probably makes zero on this it does not change the fact that it is another commerical property that it is pointing to.

Exactly.
He can stream it all he wants. He can tell us all about it here.
As soon as he advertises it within game it's a violation of the CoC.
Period.

Oh?

So I link to the DDO Official Forums in my LFM.

These forums have Advertisements.

I haven't made a dime off of that link being in my LFM.

Should I be banned?

It's impractical to say "a third party makes money, so let's ban the guy that pays us money".

Additionally, Calebro : notice how your definition of "Advertising" is fairly implicit in the effort to produce a net result of gained goods. Zonixx gains nothing from this, unless we're putting a price on popularity now.

Or, hey, lets take this a step further - I link someone the Wiki in game in Advice channel because they ask me about the Platinum cap for F2Play toons. I've done this on at least three different occasions.

The Wiki is Ad-Supported. Do I have a ban in my future for providing helpful, requested information?

[Calebro]

Oh?

So I link to the DDO Official Forums in my LFM.

These forums have Advertisements.

I haven't made a dime off of that link being in my LFM.

Should I be banned?

It's impractical to say "a third party makes money, so let's ban the guy that pays us money".

I'll copy/paste it for you, in case you're having trouble finding it above.
20. You may not post Web links or URLs in the game that point to content deemed by Turbine to be inappropriate, including, without limitation, any Web links or URLs directed to other commercial products or services.

Linking to the Official DDO forums is not a violation, because the official DDO forums are not OTHER commercial products or services. The official DDO forums are the ONLY forums that you can link without violating the CoC.

Look, it's not that hard to figure out.
Does Livestream have any official affiliation with DDO?
No?
Then you can't link it in game. And you especially can't advertise it in the LFM panel. This isn't rocket science.

[Cyr]

Oh?

So I link to the DDO Official Forums in my LFM.

These forums have Advertisements.

I haven't made a dime off of that link being in my LFM.

Should I be banned?

It's impractical to say "a third party makes money, so let's ban the guy that pays us money".

Hmm, let's think about this for a second...

Are the DDO forums a third party site?

What you mean they are a Turbine site...impossible!

So who makes money off the advertisments on the DDO site?

What you mean Turbine makes money off those advertisments...impossible!

The entire point being that Turbine does not want other companies making money off of their game. It's not an unusual position and the code of conduct is pretty clear on it.

If you want the real case. Why don't you think what Turbine's response would be if you spammed the LFM screen with links to the WoW forums?

[TheDearLeader]

I edited my post above, I'm assuming whilst you two were replying.

Your thoughts on the Third-Party DDOWiki.com being linked in game, then?

It's about the practicality of things. It's impractical to be punitive toward an active member of the community who is, in reality, doing them a heap of free advertising. Not the other way around.

[Calebro]

If I continue posting in this thread there will likely be more bannings, so I'm outta here.

[TheDearLeader]

If I continue posting in this thread there will likely be more bannings, so I'm outta here.

Bye.

[Cyr]

I edited my post above, I'm assuming whilst you two were replying.

Your thoughts on the Third-Party DDOWiki.com being linked in game, then?

It's about the practicality of things. It's impractical to be punitive toward an active member of the community who is, in reality, doing them a heap of free advertising. Not the other way around.

You should also note that I am not defending Turbine here beyond saying that their rules are pretty clear. I have not weighed in on if they are counter-productive or not to the game.

I think that many of Turbine's official policies end up costing them customers in the long run. There is a line between a competitor and a legitimate fansite/utility hosted on a third party site in my opinion. The code of conduct makes no distinction between the two, but I do think that it would be advisable for Turbine to revise it to make this distinction. Clearly you do not want people linking to wow or darkfall in offiicial chat channels, but linking to a wiki which while profitable for the site maintaining the wiki will not hurt Turbine's bottom line.

I guess the problem becomes how big WB's interests extend though. If we were dealing with just Turbine it would be much easier to simply target other MMO related sites that were not about DDO.

Now do I think that it is good to allow people to have LFM's that are full saying anything...heck no. That is the whole point of an LFM screen to find groups. If they are not being used for that purpose then I am fine with someone getting a slap on the wrist and more if they continue to spam the LFM screen with whatever they want to spam it with...be it jibes at another player, trades, guild recruitment, or links to anything.

[TheDearLeader]

Now do I think that it is good to allow people to have LFM's that are full saying anything...heck no. That is the whole point of an LFM screen to find groups. If they are not being used for that purpose then I am fine with someone getting a slap on the wrist and more if they continue to spam the LFM screen with whatever they want to spam it with...be it jibes at another player, trades, guild recruitment, or links to anything.

And this I can go with. Telling him to take it down for improper LFM use, after the LFM is full? Sure. A ban seems heavy-handed.

[Calebro]

I'll add one more thing to this conversation before I go, and I'll do it in terms that we, as DnD nerds, can understand.

You are attempting to add motives and loopholes to the Rules. His intentions not to profit from that stream are inconsequential.
You're saying that no harm was being done and that it was essentially free advertisement, so it was only helpful in the big picture.
That's a Neutral Good attitude.

The Code of Conduct is not Neutral Good.
The Code of Conduct is Lawful Neutral.
It doesn't care about motivations. It doesn't care about intentions. It doesn't care about the big picture.
It only cares about the Rules. And those Rules were broken. You can not argue this, because it's a fact, and it's spelled out very clearly.

You'll notice that I have not once actually given my opinion on the situation. That's because our opinions on the matter are inconsequential. The only item of consequence is whether or not the Rules were broken.

[LolWutRoflstomped]

The LFM was not full AS you can SEE he told the GM in his stream on twitch.tv He was actually looking for members for his group also. And there is no commercial gain, or any gain on his part, from this. The only reason this was ever done was to teach and help others.

And so you're telling me if I link my cool new mouse I got from newegg.com to someone I can be banned?!

I'll add one more thing to this conversation before I go, and I'll do it in terms that we, as DnD nerds, can understand.

You are attempting to add motives and loopholes to the Rules. His intentions not to profit from that stream are inconsequential.
You're saying that no harm was being done and that it was essentially free advertisement, so it was only helpful in the big picture.
That's a Neutral Good attitude.

The Code of Conduct is not Neutral Good.
The Code of Conduct is Lawful Neutral.
It doesn't care about motivations. It doesn't care about intentions. It doesn't care about the big picture.
It only cares about the Rules. And those Rules were broken. You can not argue this, because it's a fact, and it's spelled out very clearly.

You'll notice that I have not once actually given my opinion on the situation. That's because our opinions on the matter are inconsequential. The only item of consequence is whether or not the Rules were broken.

Thought you were leaving..?

[Calebro]

The LFM was not full AS you can SEE he told the GM in his stream on twitch.tv He was actually looking for members for his group also. And there is no commercial gain, or any gain on his part, from this. The only reason this was ever done was to teach and help others.

And so you're telling me if I link my cool new mouse I got from newegg.com to someone I can be banned?!

Probably not. But if you host the address to newegg in your LFM then you probably will.

Thought you were leaving..?

What can I say? I like feeding the trolls.

[MsEricka]

What can I say? I like feeding the trolls.

Pot? Kettle?

You had your say, you said you'd go. Follow through.

Zonixx does a service for DDO. While he streams he answers questions from viewers. I've seen questions related to feats, gear, classes, races and quests. He's out there helping players and promoting the game.

[Calebro]

Pot? Kettle?

You had your say, you said you'd go. Follow through.

Zonixx does a service for DDO. While he streams he answers questions from viewers. I've seen questions related to feats, gear, classes, races and quests. He's out there helping players and promoting the game.

I keep coming back because people are antagonizing it. Antagonistic = trolling. So I'm feeding the trolls.

The service he's providing was never the issue. The issue was that he advertised a link to a third party site in the LFM panel.
We've gone over this many times.
Offering a service does not in any way offer a free pass to violate the Code of Conduct. What he did was against the rules. There is no other way to view this. A slap on the wrists was not only warranted, it was required.
He got that slap on the wrist, and as you can see from his other thread about this feed (which is another broken rule I might add) he was back to streaming last night.

[TheDearLeader]

He got that slap on the wrist, and as you can see from his other thread about this feed (which is another broken rule I might add) he was back to streaming last night.

I talked to him on his feed last night - apparently he wasn't banned, but rather had some issues getting kicked from the game. Looks like technical, rather than administrative.

That said, the CoC could use a bit of updating for clarification, it would seem.