So what exactly qualifies as a "good" Sunder DC?

[grodon9999]

Simple question as I have no idea. What are we looking for in a Sunder DC to be effective in the hardest content?

[Nick_RC]

My offensive casting primary fvs with 40 strength 3 ftr past lives and epic mari uses regular sunder to good effect in most epics I have run.

So

10 base
15 str
10 mari
3 ftr pl
2 effective from aura

= 40. Not amazing but it works well enough. And thats on a primary wisdom character.

I currently do not have a character with improved sunder but the guild is doing alot of feat swaps to fit it in to their melees. It stacks and as soon as u get that first one off it becomes easier and easier to reapply. Im going to throw this out there.

It is more important that stunning blow for epic running melees. Casters will get the trash. Melees do the boss dps. If you are a fighter/barb/monk fit it in somewhere.
N

[SableShadow]

It stacks and as soon as u get that first one off it becomes easier and easier to reapply. Im going to throw this out there.

It is more important that stunning blow for epic running melees. Casters will get the trash. Melees do the boss dps. If you are a fighter/barb/monk fit it in somewhere.
N

Does the fortification reduction stack, or just the fortitude save reduction?

[voodoogroves]

Stunning blow is still a top notch control option, esp. for those high SR targets.

Granted, not all of the rest of us have wisdom builds that easily hit a 15 STR bonus ;-)



I'm staring at an LR for my clonk to fit in Sap and swap some stuff around.

[Nick_RC]

Does the fortification reduction stack, or just the fortitude save reduction?

I know the saves stack but not having a character of my own with the feat I cant test it. It FEELS like the fortification was stacking whether it was in the notes or not, but i could well be wrong on this. All I know is that with the crown and impr sunder up we were seeing a string of crits - you can definately tell when people are using the debuffs. When I log in tomorrow il ask one of the guys in guild to come test it with me and get back to ya.

Stunning blow is still a top notch control option, esp. for those high SR targets.

Granted, not all of the rest of us have wisdom builds that easily hit a 15 STR bonus ;-)



I'm staring at an LR for my clonk to fit in Sap and swap some stuff around.

Honestly with the messed up combat tactics, the irritating stunning blow animation, loss of off hand procs stunning blow has become less and less appealing to me. The high SR targets that a caster cant get (and really we are only talking drow) are so squishy melees put them through the blender fast enough anyway.

I was offering up a comparison for sunder DC not trying to brag or anything (Specifically if my fvs can get alot of sunders off a ftr/barb/monk with tactics enhancements, higher str mods and +4 dc from the impr sunder feat should be able to reliably do it especially after the first saves proc.)

N

[voodoogroves]

Honestly with the messed up combat tactics, the irritating stunning blow animation, loss of off hand procs stunning blow has become less and less appealing to me. The high SR targets that a caster cant get (and really we are only talking drow) are so squishy melees put them through the blender fast enough anyway.

I was offering up a comparison for sunder DC not trying to brag or anything (Specifically if my fvs can get alot of sunders off a ftr/barb/monk with tactics enhancements, higher str mods and +4 dc from the impr sunder feat should be able to reliably do it especially after the first saves proc.)

N

I was just giving you a bit of hell, no worries ;-)

I'm intrigued though - is Sunder not as borked as trip/stun right now? (I'm in a caster phase, only melee I really have right now is an assassin and she still gets the multi-procs on TWF)

[xTethx]

No the fort doesnt stack. Whoever uses improved sunder last get credited with having the debuff. Mid 40's dc on improved sunder works in any and all epic content (especially if you are twf).

[SableShadow]

No the fort doesnt stack. Whoever uses improved sunder last get credited with having the debuff. Mid 40's dc on improved sunder works in any and all epic content (especially if you are twf).

Thanks, Teth.

[Nick_RC]

I was just giving you a bit of hell, no worries ;-)

I'm intrigued though - is Sunder not as borked as trip/stun right now? (I'm in a caster phase, only melee I really have right now is an assassin and she still gets the multi-procs on TWF)

Heh all good.

Sunders borked when ur moving just like the others. But the nature of stunning blow and trip are so much more dynamic than sunder i.e you are typically moving when you attempt to hit them. Sunder you are likely standing still or have opportunity to do so on the back/front of a boss.

N

[Nick_RC]

No the fort doesnt stack. Whoever uses improved sunder last get credited with having the debuff. Mid 40's dc on improved sunder works in any and all epic content (especially if you are twf).

Great. The FEEL I had must have been crown + impr sunder. Bren deconstruct will help on these two when we start seeing more artis at high levels (if it works as advertised.)

N

[SableShadow]

Bren deconstruct will help on these two when we start seeing more artis at high levels (if it works as advertised.)

Already using Wrack Construct in LoB; haven't checked to see if it stacks with the rest of the fort debuffers yet, and my one hard completion was a bit too busy for me to see if it was working as advertised on the big guy himself (was too busy learning the patterns) ... will get back to you when I'm off timer again, unless someone else beats me to it.

[Nick_RC]

Already using Wrack Construct in LoB; haven't checked to see if it stacks with the rest of the fort debuffers yet, and my one hard completion was a bit too busy for me to see if it was working as advertised on the big guy himself ... will get back to you when I'm off timer again.

Cool - the one rogue we have in guild cant seem to fit it in at the moment. Heres hoping it stacks. And understand about being busy - alot of multitasking happening esp on battleclerics and rogs.

N

[TheDearLeader]

Already using Wrack Construct in LoB; haven't checked to see if it stacks with the rest of the fort debuffers yet, and my one hard completion was a bit too busy for me to see if it was working as advertised on the big guy himself (was too busy learning the patterns) ... will get back to you when I'm off timer again.

Did you notice that Wrack Construct is giving us Sneak Damage too? I did, and was stoked ^^ Even if it's only 10% of swings, first tier is totally worth it.

[LeLoric]

Even just a minimum 36 (14 base + 22 str mod) works eventually as each time you hit it it's -3 fort save up to 15 (max 51 dc lands on most any end boss). This is huge not only for just landing your own sunders but it also helps land touch of despair/jade tomb from monks for even more fort reduction goodness.

Even when not fighting fortified boss's this feat is really good. Monks can use it to get +6 to touch of death and stun dc's. Rogues can use it just before an assasinate for a +6 dc boost. Fighters for stunning blow. Anyone can use to help out their casters fort based spells too.

IMHO fighters, monks, splashed barbs, and splashed rogues should all be trying to find ways to fit in this feat.

[LeLoric]

Cool - the one rogue we have in guild cant seem to fit it in at the moment. Heres hoping it stacks. And understand about being busy - alot of multitasking happening esp on battleclerics and rogs.

N

Wrack appears to stack with imp sunder on the training dummy. Wrack + sunder + opportunist means 50% fort for the rogue and 60% for everyone else. This is a huge difference in dps in both lob and ma.

[TheDearLeader]

IMHO fighters, monks, splashed barbs, and splashed rogues should all be trying to find ways to fit in this feat.

I can agree with this, and pretty much everything else in your post. The debuff to Fort saves isn't game breaking, but it's one more tool at our disposal, and should not be ignored. My Kensei already swapped for Improved Sunder, and I'm using it pretty much every time I'm off timer. Even with the cruddy animation.

[SableShadow]

Cool - the one rogue we have in guild cant seem to fit it in at the moment. Heres hoping it stacks. And understand about being busy - alot of multitasking happening esp on battleclerics and rogs.

N

I dumped SB IV and a 2-pt dex enhancement I'd had lying around ... picked up Wrack II for 5 pts (2 for the pre-req DD enhance, 3 for the two levels of wrack ... spare point into the new wand/scroll mastery).

I hear him, though ... update just dropped and rogue dps dipped, hard to look at utility when dps is dropping, leastwise until you get a chance to sort out what all works now, and how.

Did you notice that Wrack Construct is giving us Sneak Damage too? I did, and was stoked ^^ Even if it's only 10% of swings, first tier is totally worth it.

Yah. I've got a quote out there somewhere, somewhat hyperbole, about maybe having higher dps on constructs rather than on fleshy bosses.

And, yah, 2 pts is pretty cheap ... don't think I didn't give the expense a hard look, but given the number of constructs in the current quests and "new shroud" raids, hard not to take.

Wrack appears to stack with imp sunder on the training dummy. Wrack + sunder + opportunist means 50% fort for the rogue and 60% for everyone else. This is a huge difference in dps in both lob and ma.

I'm not 100% sure opportunist is giving me SA's; crits, yes, SA's, no.

Great news on wrack + imp sunder, tho!

[TheDearLeader]

And, yah, 2 pts is pretty cheap ... don't think I didn't give the expense a hard look, but given the number of constructs in the current quests and "new shroud" raids, hard not to take.

Agreed. I didn't think twice about keeping Wrack after utilizing it. It's much more reasonable than, say, the people asking for Warchanters and Spellsingers to dump 12 AP for Song of the Makers.

[SableShadow]

Agreed. I didn't think twice about keeping Wrack after utilizing it. It's much more reasonable than, say, the people asking for Warchanters and Spellsingers to dump 12 AP for Song of the Makers.

imp sunder is a little harder to fit (pure rogue) than the AP ... pretty much squeezificated as is.

So, very much yeah, glad they yanked the save on Wrack. Still costs, but it isn't as if you'd have to build the entire character around it to make it work ... that would suck.

[voodoogroves]

imp sunder is a little harder to fit (pure rogue) than the AP ... pretty much squeezificated as is.

So, very much yeah, glad they yanked the save on Wrack. Still costs, but it isn't as if you'd have to build the entire character around it to make it work ... that would suck.

Solid choice for one of those acrobat splits though, what w/ the extra feats from monk/fighter.