Tougher Epic Bosses? Better Mnemonic Pots!

[Bobthesponge]

Maybe that is the problem in our communication?

/facepalm

reading skill check: you rolled a 1.

sarcasm check: you rolled a 1.

double fail!

[varusso]

I didn't infer my "lack of intelligence and strategy" on you.

Yes, actually, you did.

If you are dumb enough to waste an Epic Mnemonic pot and get 1500 SP, when you only needed 300 to finish off what you are doing, that is an intelligence and stragtegy problem I can't help you with.

You may not have INTENDED that to be the case, but given the tone of your post, it certainly comes across as such.

I tried to MyDDO you to see who you run as characters. My points aren't directed to offend you, but you sound to me to be somebody arguing their point from the standpoint of the healed, not the healer.

Perhaps it isn't what you mean, but what you sound to me to be saying is: "Your resources you spend on healing me aren't my problem. They are yours because you don't strategically plan." I take offense to that. I have healed hundreds of epics. I see the changes and am feeling it in my pocket book. My suggestions are based on personal experience, not what I perceive.

You apparently missed the ENTIRE post, where I laid out several suggestions on how to minimalize your own resource usage AND shift some of the burden onto the rest of the group, making them take some responsibility for themselves as well as the expenses, thus reducing your personal costs. I even flat out said that it was NOT just the healer's responsibility to come prepared with the right resources.

Now, any resources you must spend to make up for lack of group cohesion (which to a large extent DOES fall on the healer) ARE your problem. If the group wont work together, and you blow your resources trying to just power through it anyway, well thats on you. As the healer, you have the power to make or break any really tough run. If you say stop and gather for a heal, they will do so. If you go ahead and chase the ones that dont, to try and heal them, they will continue to ignore you. The healer almost always sets the pace of a quest.

And yes I have multiple healing toons. I also have a number of non-healer toons, all of which bring some method of self-sufficiency to the group in order to make the healer's life easier. Most of them are bugged on MyDDO. Not that it matters, cos its no one's business what my gear or build is unless I choose to share it. I personally try to play every single character type up to 20, so i have some idea of what it is actually like to BE that toon, rather than make baseless suppositions. If I tell someone, hey you should try this.... its based on having actually DONE that myself. I may not always be right, and there are ALWAYS better ways of doing things. But its not a random suggestion based on assumptions.

EDIT: And BTW, it does not matter if you are running an epic quest or a casual Korthos quest. You can stop and heal up between fights in any of them. You can slow the pace in (almost) any quest to allow for more efficient use of resourses. So the advice applies across the board. Subject to abilities/gear based on level restrictions of course.

[Seamonkeysix]

Or remove majors from the game (or add cooldown, or whatever), and you've got an even easier solution, and better - imo.

Make bauble and epic ring self OR friend target.
Simple solution ^^

I am afraid we would end up with the same problem we have with people providing pots for healers. Some people don't play blue bar toons. They sell or give away their pots. I don't see people that don't play healers spending the time to farm a bauble or epic ring of spell storing to help out healers...unless it was a social norm to join raids.

[Vellrad]

I am afraid we would end up with the same problem we have with people providing pots for healers. Some people don't play blue bar toons. They sell or give away their pots. I don't see people that don't play healers spending the time to farm a bauble or epic ring of spell storing to help out healers...unless it was a social norm to join raids.

Eh, epic raid LFM with link ur baubles would teach them

[Bobthesponge]

My healers and other blue bars have stacks of major pots because they are never used. Why should I complain if I have to use a couple when completing high level ELITE and EPIC content? These are supposed to be resource intensive. In some ways I'll be glad to get rid of them - as it is they are just gathering dust.

OP, learn to conserve resources. Learn to manage mana. Have your parties learn effective tactics. Why not stand in the middle of the group with an aura ticking? If you can't take a punch then you shouldn't be in epics - or elite for that matter.

As another Easy Button request, you get a:

/notsigned

[varusso]

/facepalm

reading skill check: you rolled a 1.

sarcasm check: you rolled a 1.

double fail!

LOL well he is partially right. The problem *IS* lack of communication, but its not **OUR* lack of communication

[Seamonkeysix]

Yes, actually, you did. *Wasn't my intent.

You may not have INTENDED that to be the case, but given the tone of your post, it certainly comes across as such. *See above. I was speaking in generalities.

You apparently missed the ENTIRE post, where I laid out several suggestions on how to minimalize your own resource usage AND shift some of the burden onto the rest of the group, making them take some responsibility for themselves as well as the expenses, thus reducing your personal costs. I even flat out said that it was NOT just the healer's responsibility to come prepared with the right resources. *The healer isn't always the party leader. I can't always control who brings what, or what their mindset is when it comes to adding to party resources.

Now, any resources you must spend to make up for lack of group cohesion (which to a large extent DOES fall on the healer) ARE your problem. *Again, I can't always control the group.

If the group wont work together, and you blow your resources trying to just power through it anyway, well thats on you. As the healer, you have the power to make or break any really tough run. If you say stop and gather for a heal, they will do so. *Doesn't apply when the party is on a boss. My healing them is totally dependant on how much damage they are taking and how long the fight takes. Even excellently geared parties are taking much longer to complete raids post u-11

If you go ahead and chase the ones that dont, to try and heal them, they will continue to ignore you. The healer almost always sets the pace of a quest. *See above. It's not a zerging fool that is causing the problems.

And yes I have multiple healing toons. I also have a number of non-healer toons, all of which bring some method of self-sufficiency to the group in order to make the healer's life easier. *Even more reason not to take offense to my post. It's not about you. It's about people who don't do this.

Most of them are bugged on MyDDO. Not that it matters, cos its no one's business what my gear or build is unless I choose to share it. * Fair enough. I guess I will just have to take your word for it. I personally make my toons available for anybody to look at. No secrets here.

I personally try to play every single character type up to 20, so i have some idea of what it is actually like to BE that toon, rather than make baseless suppositions. If I tell someone, hey you should try this.... its based on having actually DONE that myself. I may not always be right, and there are ALWAYS better ways of doing things. But its not a random suggestion based on assumptions. *Again, I will have to take your word for it. Without scrolling through my quest completions, you can see I have multiple Greater Abishai sets, epic this and that, ect... It's not an epeen thing, it's simply that I personally have chosen to do end-game content more than anything else lately. As much as you might think it is...this post isn't challenging you. It is suggesting a way to help out the healers without relying on the goodwill of the party...which I have found to be lacking in pugs, which despite how much better it is to do guild runs, you end up in from time to time.

Answers in red.

[Seamonkeysix]

Eh, epic raid LFM with link ur baubles would teach them

Totally

[Chai]

What we need is Artificer's to get Summon Mana Rod! Haha. cookie for those who get the old eq reference.

/shout Mass KEI in the nexus in 5 minutes!!!

[Seamonkeysix]

My healers and other blue bars have stacks of major pots because they are never used. Why should I complain if I have to use a couple when completing high level ELITE and EPIC content? These are supposed to be resource intensive. In some ways I'll be glad to get rid of them - as it is they are just gathering dust.

OP, learn to conserve resources. Learn to manage mana. Have your parties learn effective tactics. Why not stand in the middle of the group with an aura ticking? If you can't take a punch then you shouldn't be in epics - or elite for that matter.

As another Easy Button request, you get a:

/notsigned

Ah, not you too, Bob?

I am not talking about a couple. Guild runs on LoB taking 8-10 pots? Not talking about just me or my guild. There are numerous healers who can tell you how much more resources are being burned post u11.

Your aura ticking and punching away is fine, it just isn't getting the job done. It helps a bit, don't get me wrong, but the solution isn't a party of 12 Radiant Servant Clerics that are melee builds all standing together and relying on 11 other auras. (Although that would be cool! )

Sigh...the "easy button" response. Ok. I will just leave it at saying that I disagree. Easy button is when you could kill end game bosses in seconds. I didn't like that. I acutally like that epics are harder. I just don't like the fact that given the current content and so forth, we are in a situation where the healers are taking the brunt of the change.

People aren't changing their tactics yet, because most of those tactics require complete re-builds. DoT tanks anyone? Relyable ranged combat? Both of those things were somewhat laughable or "flavor builds" before. Suddenly, ranged builds and "DoT tanks" aren't a joke anymore.

Mechanics and tactics will change. I get it. I am doing it, AAMOF. It's just kind of sad to realize that right now, some attitudes are: "healer's problem...not mine".

[varusso]

Answers in red.

*The healer isn't always the party leader. I can't always control who brings what, or what their mindset is when it comes to adding to party resources.
*Again, I can't always control the group.

No matter who has the star, the healer sets the pace. This is true almost exclusively. If the healer refuses to rush, the rest of the group will stick to their pace, unless they dont actually need the healer in that quest/group -- which is not the subject of the thread. And if you are in a group of morons who refuse to listen or work together (which is not the same as being your mindless puppets BTW ) then the healer can always drop and look for a group with a tad more common sense. It *IS* really the star's responsibility to ensure that things go as smoothly as possible, including matching the group pace to the healer's pace. But as the healer, you have to be willing to speak up and add some direction. Any group worth running with will listen.

*Doesn't apply when the party is on a boss. My healing them is totally dependant on how much damage they are taking and how long the fight takes. Even excellently geared parties are taking much longer to complete raids post u-11

You will know LONG before you get to a boss fight if the party is full of fail or not. Based largely on whether or not they grouped up for heals, topped themselves off when needed, and about 100 or so other little tells. And yes, I know that well-geared groups are struggling with some of the content now. Thats as should be. The folks who have the gear are the ones that are mostly clamoring for more challenge to begin with. The folks who DONT have the gear should be gearing up for the challenge instead of skating along on the coat-tails of those who do. Again, an adjustment of tactics is in order for everyone, which includes dropping down to a more manageable difficulty and working out new strategies, and/or gearing up some more for the new challenge. Adding a higher SP pot wont really change that, other than a 'convenience' of a quicker boost.

[varusso]

Mechanics and tactics will change. I get it. I am doing it, AAMOF. It's just kind of sad to realize that right now, some attitudes are: "healer's problem...not mine".

Dont group with those idiots. They completely fail in an actual group dynamic (See: soloing in a group). Its NOT just the healer's problem. It requires a rethinking of the entire situation (yes including new build designs, gear optimization, etc). It requires trying something new (rather like when Epic Ward was dropped and instant-kill wpns were changed). It requires doing some things differently than what we do now, and it requires groups to actually play as groups, meaning they share the burden of resources while we hammer out the new winning strategies.

Easy button -- pfft that is overused as an argument in general. But yes, adding another tier of SP pots *WOULD* significantly decrease challenge -- once we have built up stockpiles like we have of the current pots. Nukers and healers can empty their bars in seconds, then pot back up in short order and do it again -- and again. It would be even worse if they had access to larger pots (and were willing to burn them). And it still wouldnt address the actial problem -- players needing to play smarter now. It would, however, end up with pots getting nerfed -- something i dont want to see, even though I rarely use them -- dropping us right back here again.

[Habreno]

As a capped Divine, I have done quite a few things that most don't:

Duo-heal Elite VoD without pots... twice.
Duo-heal Hard ToD, with Summolades... without pots... as my second run in the raid EVER.
Solo-healed Normal VoD... twice... with 1k sp left over each time.
Solo-healed end Abishai fight in EChrono... without pots or a DDoor.

Of course, this was pre u11. But given that kind of power and knowledge about the class to pull off some of those feats- especially the end Abishai fight in EChrono solo-heal- I should be able to complete this content, which is harder now due to the U11 buff, without pots. Problem is I'm not... because there's no way to do it. Even with a bauble and ROSS, I'd still need pots- and I have neither of them (and still did the above list) but really should have the Bauble...

From the point of a divine, U11 really screwed us over. We are given more work to do and no thanks from groups for it. And your "Nice heals" over party chat isn't the kind of thanks I talk about. Should content be challenging? Yes. Should it be IMPOSSIBLE without memonics? No-and that's where it's at now. Just another ploy to get more money out of divines- force them to buy pots to complete quests...

[Bobthesponge]

Ah, not you too, Bob?

et me, Brutus? but of course!

I am not talking about a couple. Guild runs on LoB taking 8-10 pots? Not talking about just me or my guild. There are numerous healers who can tell you how much more resources are being burned post u11.

my healer - a 28 point relic that was only partially fixed when LR came out and can't be truly fixed until i bother to TR him - has not had any issues post U11. yes, i have had to drink some pots but soon people will learn tactics and adjust. 8-10 pots? not yet, but, once again, what else are the pots for? i haven't had to use pots in ages before this. i remember having to use pots in Shroud when a 3 rounder was common and 4 rouders were wipes unless the healers drank up. but then tactics changed, weapons changed, and healers changed. if i drink a pot in shroud it is only because i accidentally hit it.

Your aura ticking and punching away is fine, it just isn't getting the job done. It helps a bit, don't get me wrong, but the solution isn't a party of 12 Radiant Servant Clerics that are melee builds all standing together and relying on 11 other auras. (Although that would be cool! )

Aura is not meant to be a full healer unless you are fighting mobs swinging wet noodles at you, but it mitigates damage so you have to hit your mass cures less often. my cleric - referenced above - has pretty weak melee capabilities because i didn't think about that when building him all those years ago, but he can still turtle up and heal from within a group.

Sigh...the "easy button" response. Ok. I will just leave it at saying that I disagree. Easy button is when you could kill end game bosses in seconds. I didn't like that. I acutally like that epics are harder. I just don't like the fact that given the current content and so forth, we are in a situation where the healers are taking the brunt of the change.

how else would you describe the suggested ability to regen close to all your mana - or at least half - at any time? unlimited mana is an easy button. at least the current pot system means you only get a small percentage at a time back.

People aren't changing their tactics yet, because most of those tactics require complete re-builds. DoT tanks anyone? Relyable ranged combat? Both of those things were somewhat laughable or "flavor builds" before. Suddenly, ranged builds and "DoT tanks" aren't a joke anymore.

early days, my friend. don't hit the panic button just yet and allow the change to happen.

Mechanics and tactics will change. I get it. I am doing it, AAMOF. It's just kind of sad to realize that right now, some attitudes are: "healer's problem...not mine".

that is an issue with the people you play with, not the game.

[taurean430]

As a capped Divine, I have done quite a few things that most don't:

Duo-heal Elite VoD without pots... twice.
Duo-heal Hard ToD, with Summolades... without pots... as my second run in the raid EVER.
Solo-healed Normal VoD... twice... with 1k sp left over each time.
Solo-healed end Abishai fight in EChrono... without pots or a DDoor.

Of course, this was pre u11. But given that kind of power and knowledge about the class to pull off some of those feats- especially the end Abishai fight in EChrono solo-heal- I should be able to complete this content, which is harder now due to the U11 buff, without pots. Problem is I'm not... because there's no way to do it. Even with a bauble and ROSS, I'd still need pots- and I have neither of them (and still did the above list) but really should have the Bauble...

From the point of a divine, U11 really screwed us over. We are given more work to do and no thanks from groups for it. And your "Nice heals" over party chat isn't the kind of thanks I talk about. Should content be challenging? Yes. Should it be IMPOSSIBLE without memonics? No-and that's where it's at now. Just another ploy to get more money out of divines- force them to buy pots to complete quests...

Yes.

And this is why I've deleted my first life divines, and am TR'ing all but two into other classes. I'm already fed up. This week I've burned out my entire stock of mem pots trying to get completions in raids. It is completely unreasonable to expect this out of players. My solution is simple. The two multi TR'd guys I have left will remain for guild healing only. I'm not cool with anything I've seen this last week.

[Seamonkeysix]

Yes.

And this is why I've deleted my first life divines, and am TR'ing all but two into other classes. I'm already fed up. This week I've burned out my entire stock of mem pots trying to get completions in raids. It is completely unreasonable to expect this out of players. My solution is simple. The two multi TR'd guys I have left will remain for guild healing only. I'm not cool with anything I've seen this last week.

As a capped Divine, I have done quite a few things that most don't:

Duo-heal Elite VoD without pots... twice.
Duo-heal Hard ToD, with Summolades... without pots... as my second run in the raid EVER.
Solo-healed Normal VoD... twice... with 1k sp left over each time.
Solo-healed end Abishai fight in EChrono... without pots or a DDoor.

Of course, this was pre u11. But given that kind of power and knowledge about the class to pull off some of those feats- especially the end Abishai fight in EChrono solo-heal- I should be able to complete this content, which is harder now due to the U11 buff, without pots. Problem is I'm not... because there's no way to do it. Even with a bauble and ROSS, I'd still need pots- and I have neither of them (and still did the above list) but really should have the Bauble...

From the point of a divine, U11 really screwed us over. We are given more work to do and no thanks from groups for it. And your "Nice heals" over party chat isn't the kind of thanks I talk about. Should content be challenging? Yes. Should it be IMPOSSIBLE without memonics? No-and that's where it's at now. Just another ploy to get more money out of divines- force them to buy pots to complete quests...

This is what I am saying is happening. I am not trying to call out the people for their opinions on this topic if it is different than mine. I actually appreciate the fact that there is discussion, and conversation. The bottom line is that it appears that there are people who play primarily divine classes that aren't digging what is going on with resource depletion. There are people who may have divines and other classes that may not agree with changing the drop rate of mnemonic pots, or creating larger ones to compensate for resource loss...but at least there is some concensus that the healers very well may be taking a beating post u11 and there needs to be SOME sort of way to mitigate it.

Call me cynical, but I don't totally believe in goodwill to get pots replaced. I am in a VERY solid guild, and I can choose to only run with them and eliminate the majority of my frustration. My guild raids a lot, but life and times and all of that can never really make it so you never pug. It just seems sad to me that I don't feel the same way about logging on, joining random EChrono pug and not stressing that it is going to take a huge chunk out of my inventory.

The difference now vs then is:

Before: Group fails. Wipe. I wasted 30 minutes.

Now: Group fails. Wipe. I wasted an hour and 5 pots.

[katz]

/shout Mass KEI in the nexus in 5 minutes!!!

SOW PLZ! gotta get to nexus in time for some crack! err i mean KEI

[grodon9999]

Or remove majors from the game (or add cooldown, or whatever), and you've got an even easier solution, and better - imo.

Yes, give them a 1 minute cooldown on normal/hard, 90 seconds on elite and 2 minutes on epic. Balance content around that. SP pots as they are now are the single most game-breaking item in DDO, especially since they can be bought for cash

[Seamonkeysix]

Yes, give them a 1 minute cooldown on normal/hard, 90 seconds on elite and 2 minutes on epic. Balance content around that. SP pots as they are now are the single most game-breaking item in DDO, especially since they can be bought for cash

Yes...do that, and I will stop complaining!