The Time is right for the Dwarven Defender PRE

[eonfreon]

two things

1. Defender would not allow for Kensai due to it counting as a Fighter PrE.

2. A large portion of the Defender benefits revolve around a Shield... they may want to make that even more pronounced before they implement this though I believe the new HP boost requires a Shield as well right?

Aesop

As far as the hp boost, DoS doesn't require a shield. Don't know if SD does.

[Calebro]

As far as the hp boost, DoS doesn't require a shield. Don't know if SD does.

Correct. The shield is tied to extra threat, which is exactly what someone using a shiled needs.

[grodon9999]

Yep cause I could see a pure sorc/fvs dwarven defender with 800-1000 hit points just dotting and shield blocking Maybe then Turbine will finally add a save to them. So yes /signed.

OMG - that's AWESOME!

[sephiroth1084]

two things

1. Defender would not allow for Kensai due to it counting as a Fighter PrE.

Oh, true. Hmm...That's actually something I dislike...that it would make fighter feel like a weaker choice for a dwarven character, since they could be doubling up on PrEs with any other class.

2. A large portion of the Defender benefits revolve around a Shield... they may want to make that even more pronounced before they implement this though I believe the new HP boost requires a Shield as well right?

Aesop

I kind of like this suggestion, as it avoids most of the problems I have with the idea of the dwarven PrE, but it then removes a chunk of the reason to go this route on anyone not using a shield, which even while I'm not thrilled about the prospect seems like it should remain a worthwhile option.

I'm of two minds on stuff a lot.

[Aesop]

I kind of like this suggestion, as it avoids most of the problems I have with the idea of the dwarven PrE, but it then removes a chunk of the reason to go this route on anyone not using a shield, which even while I'm not thrilled about the prospect seems like it should remain a worthwhile option.

I'm of two minds on stuff a lot.

Lucky bastage I'm barely functioning on half a brain and you have 2... /sigh


I would like to see some extra benefits to Shield Fighting from Defender.

Maybe increased Mitigation and Bashing Procs
As it stands it has the extra Threat and the Extra DR

The only problem is there is little benefit except the Stance for Monks and Monk splash characters... that's not a terrible thing but it could be better

Aesop

[Jaid314]

One thing prevents you...
And that's one of the boosts, IIRC. It's an either/or.
If you pick it up as Fighter(Dwarf) you can't pick it up as Paladin, and vice versa.

That right there is a serious hurdle.
And Dwarves aren't the expert pole vaulters in heavy armor...

they couldn't require the fighter armor boost if you qualify as a dwarf non-fighter, and if they give a racial armor boost to take the place of the class one, it should be separately chosen and on a separate timer, just like all other action boosts.

edit: the more likely possibility is that they might count as the same kinds of bonuses for everything so it wouldn't stack. which would be kinda disappointing, but understandable i suppose.

[sephiroth1084]

they couldn't require the fighter armor boost if you qualify as a dwarf non-fighter, and if they give a racial armor boost to take the place of the class one, it should be separately chosen and on a separate timer, just like all other action boosts.

edit: the more likely possibility is that they might count as the same kinds of bonuses for everything so it wouldn't stack. which would be kinda disappointing, but understandable i suppose.

Why be silly like that? Does Human AC Boost stack with class boost? If yes, so should the dwarf version. If no, then it shouldn't. Not like anyone is going to use it anyway.

[aristarchus1000]

/signed

I'm already seeing some interesting build ideas just in this thread, and it shouldn't require too much coding if it is just a copy of Stalwart Defender, much like Arcane Archer is for elves.

I suppose there will need to be some enhancement options so non-fighter splashes can still get to Tier 3.

[Talias006]

Why be silly like that? Does Human AC Boost stack with class boost? If yes, so should the dwarf version. If no, then it shouldn't. Not like anyone is going to use it anyway.

I don't believe he's talking about the ac boosts stacking.

More or less talking about stacking the PrE's, so if you had a Dwarf Paladin, he could get DoS and Dwarven Defender (Fighter).
That's what I believe was being talked about.

And that's why you currently can't get both Defender PrE's on the same character.
Getting one Armor Boost takes the other off of the list of things you could get.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't believe he's talking about the ac boosts stacking.

More or less talking about stacking the PrE's, so if you had a Dwarf Paladin, he could get DoS and Dwarven Defender (Fighter).
That's what I believe was being talked about.

And that's why you currently can't get both Defender PrE's on the same character.
Getting one Armor Boost takes the other off of the list of things you could get.

Teach me to post when half asleep. Uh, maybe if the dwarven defender had smaller bonuses, or could half-stack, but straight up stacking seems rather OP. +12 Str and Con, +40% HP, +150% hate, +14 AC (on a fighter) or +11 AC (on a paladin), etc... Too much I think.

[Chai]

Teach me to post when half asleep. Uh, maybe if the dwarven defender had smaller bonuses, or could half-stack, but straight up stacking seems rather OP. +12 Str and Con, +40% HP, +150% hate, +14 AC (on a fighter) or +11 AC (on a paladin), etc... Too much I think.

It would likely take the place of all other defender type PRE.

[Aesop]

It would likely take the place of all other defender type PRE.

I think that is most likely as well

Aesop

[karl_k0ch]

Dwarven Defender must be lawfull (at least in PnP)
Barbarian cannot be lawfull.

In DDO, all alignment restrictions to PrEs have been ignored so far:
Assassin and Pale Master require evil alignment, which is not possible in DDO, so it has been dropped.
But also, by the book, Kensei also requires a lawful alignment, which is obviously not implemented.

I don't see why Dwarven Defender should be an exeption to that procedure.

Aside from that: /signed.

[Feithlin]

Teach me to post when half asleep. Uh, maybe if the dwarven defender had smaller bonuses, or could half-stack, but straight up stacking seems rather OP. +12 Str and Con, +40% HP, +150% hate, +14 AC (on a fighter) or +11 AC (on a paladin), etc... Too much I think.

You wouldn't be able to have both stances active. However, you could stack basic SD effects to DoS ones, i.e. +6 AC from bulwark, +3 free AC from defender, probably the best of both bonuses to MDB.

[sephiroth1084]

You wouldn't be able to have both stances active. However, you could stack basic SD effects to DoS ones, i.e. +6 AC from bulwark, +3 free AC from defender, probably the best of both bonuses to MDB.

Dunno if I'd spend all the AP in order to gain +6 intimidate, +3 AC and DR 6/- while holding a shield on an already AP-starved Defender of Siberys.

[Ungood]

I am all for giving Dwarves "Stalwart Defender" as a racial PRE, like Elves have Arcane Archer.

In fact, I would like to see more PRE's bound to race and class,

Perhaps, giving Half Orcs: Frenzy Berserker. (along with their Heir thing)

Halfling could get Acrobat. (along with their Heir thing)

Drow have a Scorpion Wraith Planned.

War Forged have the Juggernaut planned.

Elves and HElves already have Arcane Archer.

Humans: They have 4 Dragon Mark Heir's Planned.

But all in all.. I would like this.

[Jahmin]

So first thing they'll have to do is give dwarves the Armor Action Boost.

Then align some new prerequisites


Tier 1

requires 1 of

Shield Mastery
Dodge
Combat Expertise
Die Hard

Requires all of
Toughness
Dwarven Armor Boost 1
Dwarven Constitution 1


Tier 2

Requires 1 of

Dwarven Armored Agility 2
Dwarven Shield Mastery 2
Dwarven Armor Mastery 2
Dwarven Toughness 2

Requires all of

Dwarven Spell Defense 1
Dwarven Armor Boost 2
Dwarven Defender 1

Tier 3

requires 1 of

Dwarven Armored Agility 3
Dwarven Armor Mastery 3
Dwarven Shield Mastery 3
Dwarven Toughness 3

requires all of

Dwarven Armor Boost 3
Dwarven Spell Defense 2
Dwarven Defender 2



And that would allow for it pretty much... only replacement was the Intimidate 2 was replaced with Constitution 1 and item Defense was Replaced with Spell Defense... seemed a happy thing

Aesop

Nicely done. Very similar to the route I took this spring... sadly no response there either

I have long wondered what the delay with this Prestige Enhancement is. Elves got Arcane Archer upon its release for Ranger, so honestly how difficult could porting this be? Surly it would be quicker than trying to create the numerous NEW PrEs added since Stalwart Defender’s introduction. So let us see what actually is needed to make this happen.

Currently Elven AA differs from Ranger AA by being delayed by 2 levels throughout with an extra 8 AP progression requirement. There is also an additional BAB requirement for Elves that Rangers would automatically achieve, but the requirements are otherwise the same.

Stalwart Defender1 requires Improved Intimidate2, Toughness, Fighter AC Boost1 and one of Shield Mastery, CE, Diehard or Dodge (ignoring the Sentinel Dragonmark option since a Dwarf cannot get it).

In addition Stalwart2 requires Fighter Item Defense1, Fighter AC Boost2 and one of Fighter Toughness2, Fighter Armored Agility2, Fighter Armor Master2 or Fighter Tower Shield Mastery2.

Finally, Stalwart3 requires Ftr Item Defense2, Ftr AC Boost3 and one of Ftr Toughness3, Ftr Armored Agility3 or Ftr Twr Shield Mastery3.

Now we need to identify the issues for Dwarf qualification. Neither the mandatory Toughness feat nor the other optional feats (Shield Mastery, CE, Diehard, Dodge) pose any issue, and although restrictive there are multiple ways to acquire Improved Intimidate2 (Barb/Ftr/Pal/Rog lvl4+). Thus for Stalwart1 the limiting factor is the Ftr AC Boost.

Stalwart2’s optional requirements would not be an issue as Dwarves have identically functioning ones: Dwarf Racial Toughness2, Dwarf Armored Agility2, Dwarf Armor Mastery2 – which could all be immediately added to the ‘One of’ requirement list. Racial Toughness is a special consideration since every race now gets it, and that may cause issues, but the other two would have no such problem. However, Ftr Item Defense1 and Ftr AC Boost2 have no equivalent.

Stalwart3 closely mirrors Stalwart2. We have equivalents in Dwarf Racial Toughness3, Dwarf Armored Agility3 and Dwarf Armor Mastery3 and are still lacking parallels for Ftr Item Defense2 and Ftr AC Boost3.

It would seem that the Fighter Item Defense and AC Boost lines are what are preventing Dwarven Defenders. Thus the novel solution is to give both to Dwarves as standalone enhancement lines. Given the limitation of only a single ‘One of’ option for any PrE tier, these would have to be the actual Fighter lines, but that should not cause any problems.

Comparing the other common Enhancements lines shows that the Dwarven Tactics line is a +1/2/3 level increase over the same Ftr Tactic. Dwarven Armor Mastery is less and Dwarven Armor Agility is the same. Accepting that AC Boost is probably considered more powerful than Item Defense, then AC Boost could be level increased for Dwarves while Item Defense could be the same level – this is merely a suggestion, either could be more or less.

Fighter Armor Class Boost I
AP Cost 1
Requires one of Fighter1 or Dwarf2

Ftr AC Boost II
AP Cost 2
Requires one of Ftr4 or Dwarf6

Ftr AC Boost III
AP Cost 3
Requires one of Ftr7 or Dwarf10

Ftr Ac Boost IV
AP Cost 4
Requires one of Ftr10 or Dwarf14
(Technically not ‘needed’ by Dwarves but every other Action Boost line has 4 so might as well)


Fighter Item Defense I
AP Cost 1
Requires one of Ftr1 or Dwarf1

Ftr Item Defense II
AP Cost 2
Requires one of Ftr5 or Dwarf5

Ftr Item Defense III
AP Cost 3
Requires one of Ftr9 or Dwarf9

Ftr Item Defense IV
Ap Cost 4
Requires one of Ftr13 or Dwarf13
(Again not necessarily needed per say)

Stalwart2&3 are then changed to include Dwarven Armor Agility and Dwarven Armor Mastery as part of their optional ‘One of’ requirements as well as Stalwart1/2/3’s Level and Progression requirements having Dwarf8/14/20 and Progression24/50/74 added. Now any Dwarf with at least 4 levels of Rogue, Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian could qualify. VoilÃ*, Dwarven Defender!

Obviously additional tweaking of the ‘Dwarven’ AC Boost or Item Defense could be done. Other improvements would be adding the option of Barb Toughness and Pal Toughness to the ‘One of’ requirements for Stalwart2&3 (this would benefit non-Dwarves as well).

Elves have had their Racial PrE long enough – it is time for Dwarves to get theirs!

Really looking forward to 3 years without this come Christmas

[Corwinsky]

With the changes to the defender prestiges this would be a terrible idea to allow a dwarven defender.

Most people are only discussing how it would affect melee classes but as someone pointed out you could also have a divine or arcane dwarf that could take the prestige.
Giving them extra HP, AC, DR, threat considering how unbalanced these classes already are with the melee ones is not a good idea.
18FvS/2Mnk Dwarfs would become tanks in casters only epic/elite raid groups including the new Cannith quests.