Arcane Bolt and Blast Not Effected by Metamagic.

[AestorTheKnight]

So I decided to make a Wizard Archmage specialising in Force and Evocation Spells.

Thought it was a cool idea, fun build, not powergamer build at all.

Get to level 15 and i took Arcane Bolt and Blast - the Archmage only Force Bolts as spell like abilities.

Turns out they are NOT effected by any Metamagic.

Empower does not increase the damage these two abilities do. Nor does Maximise.

Quicken doesnt increase cast speed.

Enlarge does not extend their range.

I havent tried with Heighten yet but im guessing that it doesnt increase their Spell Level for DC purposes.

I was very dissapointed

Are these the only spell like abilities in the game that are NOT effected by Metamagic?

Unfortunatly they are in my oppinion pretty gimped by this.

And why is this? Is this because they are based on a PnP ability that states in some rule book somewhere that they are not effected by Metamagic?

Or did Turbine decide that they would be OP if Metamagic effected them?

I dont think it would at all. Sorc Savants all get AoE spells as Spell Like Abilities that dont even decrease their Spell Point Total and are effected by Metamagics, doing anywhere between 300 to 700 damage on a crit.

But Wizards get Arcane Blast that casts slowly and that does between 50 on a reflex save, to 125 on a failed save
a mediocre 300 on a crit. Seems pretty gimped.

I thought the Wizard Archmage Force specialist would be a nice alternative nuke build to the Sorc Savant. Turns out its pretty gimped

Id like to see this re-worked so that Arcane Bolt and Arcane Blast are effected by Metamagics - or at least please state on the ability that they NOT so people dont have to level to 15 to discover these wizard abilities are not very good.

One possible idea is to put the Arcane Bolt and Blast on the Archmage Evocation Spell Like abilities instead of Gust of Wind (Blah) and Cyclonic Blast (also mostly Blah).

Comments welcome.

[redspecter23]

Id like to see this re-worked so that Arcane Bolt and Arcane Blast are effected by Metamagics - or at least please state on the ability that they NOT so people dont have to level to 15 to discover their wizard abilities are not very good.

Comments welcome.

I agree 100%. Making the metamagics work with them would be ideal, but if the devs really don't want this for some reason, it should state quite clearly in the description that metamagics do not function with the ability. It seems completely backwards that some SLA's are effected while others seem to be left out for what I can only assume is either a mistake or a balancing concern.

I would love a dev response on whether it's working as intended currently or not. I'm not sure if it's been officially mentioned previously. If it is working as intended, then I have to assume that force specced archmages would be far too overpowered if the abilities functioned with metas.

[jaegarnel]

Simply put, arcane bolt and blast are fine as they are, and would be OP at later levels if metamagics affected them without increasing the cost.
Arcane bolt would be at cap, with maximize and empower, a 2 sp 50d6 force damage, before including potency or lore items, way better than any other nuke available to wizards.

There are two kinds of SLA in the game, those which are based on spells and that get the benefit of free metamagics, and those that aren't like the pm or am bolts, or wind dance, that don't get metamagics applied to them. It's definitely WAI.

[Enoach]

No, these are not the only spell-like abilities that do not benefit from Meta magic

The three from the Pale Master PrE Touch/Bolt/Blast are also not effected.

However, might I suggest easier ways to help you determine what Meta's work with the Spells/Spell-like ability?

As part of the description of the Spell/Spell like ability it lists the Metamagic feats that can be applied. If there is no list then this indicates that no metas will effect the casting of the spell.

After you drag a spell to the hotbar you can right click on it and see the options for the Meta's that work. This also allows you to customize how you want your meta magic feats to work
Options

1. Always On - Does not matter if you've turned your Meta's on or off they will be on for the casting of this spell
2. Always Off - Does not matter if you've turned your Meta's on or off they will be off for the casting of this spell
3. Standard - Cast is bassed on how you have the Meta's Toggled.

[redspecter23]

Simply put, arcane bolt and blast are fine as they are, and would be OP at later levels if metamagics affected them without increasing the cost.
Arcane bolt would be at cap, with maximize and empower, a 2 sp 50d6 force damage, before including potency or lore items, way better than any other nuke available to wizards.

There are two kinds of SLA in the game, those which are based on spells and that get the benefit of free metamagics, and those that aren't like the pm or am bolts, and that don't get metamagics.

I would argue that rather than disallow metamagics on a couple specific SLA's, the actual abilites should be rebalanced to allow them. Either put a level cap on the SLA or scale the dice differently if needed. For the sake of consistency, I think it's in the best interest for all SLA's to function in the same way. The ability could then start small then grow to a reasonable level at cap, instead of starting off small and growing a minsicule amount to the point of uselessness at cap.

But the point still stands, if the devs really don't want metas effecting these SLA's then they still should probably get a rebalancing pass anyway to make them useful at cap. I'm just suggesting that while they're rebalancing them, they might as well balance them for use with metas for consistency.

[Dhalgren]

I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before, but yes, this is the case. I actually currently have these specced on my capped AM, but that is only while favour farming lowbie quests (first toon and I missed a lot of favour on the way up). I plan to ditch them as soon as I'm done (tonight, I expect) in favour of something else as Arcane Bolt and Blast are IMHO pretty much a pair of wasted AP at cap.

Just my 2 copper but I agree with you. These would make for a pretty nice damage cycle if we could metamagic them (Bolt-Chain Missile-Bolt-Magic Missile-Bolt-Blast, e.g.) but as is are not as good as something else.

That said they still work nicely on the little flying construct critters in the new Cannith quests. That's about it. Oh yeah, and bats. They're OK(ish) for bats.

/signed

[Edit: Ninja'd. The other posters make some good points too. I'd still like to see something done to balance these, even if it doesn't involve making them use metas.]

[AestorTheKnight]

No, these are not the only spell-like abilities that do not benefit from Meta magic

The three from the Pale Master PrE Touch/Bolt/Blast are also not effected.

However, might I suggest easier ways to help you determine what Meta's work with the Spells/Spell-like ability?

As part of the description of the Spell/Spell like ability it lists the Metamagic feats that can be applied. If there is no list then this indicates that no metas will effect the casting of the spell.

After you drag a spell to the hotbar you can right click on it and see the options for the Meta's that work. This also allows you to customize how you want your meta magic feats to work
Options

1. Always On - Does not matter if you've turned your Meta's on or off they will be on for the casting of this spell
2. Always Off - Does not matter if you've turned your Meta's on or off they will be off for the casting of this spell
3. Standard - Cast is bassed on how you have the Meta's Toggled.

Ok cool - ive not played a Pale Master so I wasnt aware that their SLA's were not effected. Thanks for the heads up

Dood, thank you so much for pointing out the Metamagic Toggle! haha I didnt even realise that option was possible. Thanks!

I would argue that rather than disallow metamagics on a couple specific SLA's, the actual abilites should be rebalanced to allow them. Either put a level cap on the SLA or scale the dice differently if needed. For the sake of consistency, I think it's in the best interest for all SLA's to function in the same way. The ability could then start small then grow to a reasonable level at cap, instead of starting off small and growing a minsicule amount to the point of uselessness at cap.

But the point still stands, if the devs really don't want metas effecting these SLA's then they still should probably get a rebalancing pass anyway to make them useful at cap. I'm just suggesting that while they're rebalancing them, they might as well balance them for use with metas for consistency.

I agree with this!

But yeah... at the moment Force Bolt and Blast are kinda Gimpy

[richieelias27]

This exact same subject has been gone over *many* times here.

There are two types of SLA:

Spell like abilities which are based on actual spells (your web SLA for example). These are abilities which are copies of spells in your spell book, or in a spell book at least.

Spell Like Abilities which are NOT based on actual spells. These would be Necrotic line for PaleMaster and the arcane line for Archmage.

Spell-based SLA's are NOT the same as non-spell based SLA's. Spell-Based SLA's always have been affected by metamagics free of cost (dragon marks for example). Non spell-based SLA's always have NOT been affected by metamagics. This is not some special thing for Archmages.

Any time you see an SLA which has not been carbon copied from a spell in a spellbook, it will not be affected by metamagics. This is how it has always been.

[Seph1roth5]

Yeah but another thing that makes arcane SLAs really blow are that they're reflex saves, so a lot of stuff is going to evade them. The necro ones are fort saves at least so you're always going to be doing some damage.

[jaegarnel]

I don't really get why you think arcane bolt/blast are bad SLAs.

They're force damage, which means nothing is immune to them, and pretty much only golems are resistant. They're very useful for dealing with portals or other things very resistant to elemental damage.

They deal 20d6 damage at cap (for me, with potency 6 and first tier enhancement in force damage, that translates into around 130 dmg on average), which is more than most of your spells. Sure, you can't maximize/empower them, so they'll never do as much damage as your real nukes but OTOH they cost almost nothing in terms of sp, which makes them very useful to kill stuff when you run out of sp, or even a small free DPS boost in fights.

Now, they're useless against mobs with evasion and even most mobs with a decent reflex save will save, true, but at 2 and 6 sp they're still situationally useful.
Considering their cost, they'd be OP if they were anything else, as right now, they're still by far your most sp-efficient damaging spells with the possible exception of the DoTs.

[richieelias27]

Yeah but another thing that makes arcane SLAs really blow are that they're reflex saves, so a lot of stuff is going to evade them. The necro ones are fort saves at least so you're always going to be doing some damage.

The necro ones also have a large number of things that are flat out immune. Fort saves are also typically very high compared to reflex. Force on the other hand, has almost nothing which is immune/resistant and attacks a save that is typically weak. In both cases you can still load up a spell which attacks a different save. If you expect to be able to win the entire game using only one SLA, it is not going to work. That is called good game development.

Balanced.

[soulaeon]

After level 15, take Magic Missile instead. Does slightly less damage, but always hits.

[Esserbe]

How about allowing Heighten to work with them, would that make it unbalanced? You need to spend useless AP in Improved Concentration for Archmage anyways, throw them a bone!

[NUDS]

Simply put, arcane bolt and blast are fine as they are, and would be OP at later levels if metamagics affected them without increasing the cost.
Arcane bolt would be at cap, with maximize and empower, a 2 sp 50d6 force damage, before including potency or lore items, way better than any other nuke available to wizards.

My Air savant Tier 3 SLA crits for 1k and double strikes for 2k in total for a measly 8 sp and 8 second CD so, yeah. This is with no raid gear/epics.


OT:
Look at it this way, you get 2 free enhancement points you can put elsewhere

From my experience with AM so far, it's very mediocre. However, I was trying to play it like my nuke-based savants. They really shine when played with controllers/tactical strikes in mind, with lots of insta-kill spells and CC to cycle through.

[richieelias27]

My Air savant Tier 3 SLA crits for 1k and double strikes for 2k in total for a measly 8 sp and 8 second CD so, yeah. This is with no raid gear/epics.


OT:
Look at it this way, you get 2 free enhancement points you can put elsewhere

From my experience with AM so far, it's very mediocre. However, I was trying to play it like my nuke-based savants. They really shine when played with controllers/tactical strikes in mind, with lots of insta-kill spells and CC to cycle through.

They arent meant to be played like a Savant. The Archmage's focus is not damage.

If they fix SLA's it will be to make none of them work with metamagics. Personally, I would prefer they leave them alone.

[soulaeon]

How about allowing Heighten to work with them, would that make it unbalanced? You need to spend useless AP in Improved Concentration for Archmage anyways, throw them a bone!

Wizards are already Turbine's pet class. You guys get all five tiers of both your prestige enhancements, which no one else can, and get all the new spells (there are no high level electric spells, for example) that work with any build you make.
One little spell that is not much better than Magic Missile (which you can also get in the same manner) should not make a difference.

[jaegarnel]

My Air savant Tier 3 SLA crits for 1k and double strikes for 2k in total for a measly 8 sp and 8 second CD so, yeah. This is with no raid gear/epics.


OT:
Look at it this way, you get 2 free enhancement points you can put elsewhere

From my experience with AM so far, it's very mediocre. However, I was trying to play it like my nuke-based savants. They really shine when played with controllers/tactical strikes in mind, with lots of insta-kill spells and CC to cycle through.

As the previous poster said, archmage is not about damage, unlike savants.
If they could do anywhere near the damage of savants with their SLA despite having a big DC advantage and a much reduced sp cost on some great spells, the PrE would be OP, yes.

PM is still more powerful atm since necromancy rules most of the endgame currently, but while AM seems underpowered compared to other arcane PrEs now, it still does what it's meant to do, and its relative weakness is more because the other arcane PrEs are overpowerd than anything else.

Personally, while I do feel weaker on my AM than PMs at endgame, and will likely TR soon into one, I still love my 1 sp hypno and 3 sp dance and web right now. Those are the real staples of the archmage PrE imo, not arcane bolt, though I still use that often and maintain that it's fairly useful, even at cap.

[soulaeon]

From my experience with AM so far, it's very mediocre. However, I was trying to play it like my nuke-based savants. They really shine when played with controllers/tactical strikes in mind, with lots of insta-kill spells and CC to cycle through.

Wizards are not supposed to be nukers. A wizard doing the same damage a sorcerer can would be over powered. Wizards may already be because warforged Pale Masters can fill almost any group role.
The little bolts archmages get are basically a bone for an animal that already has a full dish. Think of it that way
In their defense, when I was a wizard, archmage did feel like a sorcerer somewhat. It was like being a nuker, before Update 10.

[Esserbe]

Wizards are not supposed to be nukers. A wizard doing the same damage a sorcerer can would be over powered.

Then explain what the Evocation AM is supposed to be about, if not to be able to nuke while conserving SP? Also, a Wizard can never do the same damage as an equivalently geared and built sorc simply due to the fact that the Sorc capstone grants 20% extra damage to any spell that can be empowered. That would still remain even if Arcane Bolt and Blast could be heightened, and Archmage has very heavy requirements, including four completely, absolutely wasted APs in Improved Concentration.

[soulaeon]

Then explain what the Evocation AM is supposed to be about, if not to be able to nuke while conserving SP? Also, a Wizard can never do the same damage as an equivalently geared and built sorc simply due to the fact that the Sorc capstone grants 20% extra damage to any spell that can be empowered. That would still remain even if Arcane Bolt and Blast could be heightened, and Archmage has very heavy requirements, including four completely, absolutely wasted APs in Improved Concentration.

It's the wizardly version of nuking, but evocation spells are not all damage-based. CC spells like Sunburst, Electric Loop, Prismatic Spray and Ray and Cyclonic Blast are not there just for their damage. A successful hit with any spell like that does more than damage.
Wizards are there to be accurate, and for meeting the challenges of a specific situation. Archmages are still wizards, and still more versatile than sorcerers.